Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Combatbutler]

The Kirin Tor was never the enemy of Quel'thalas, both nations worked well for millenia. What happened in the third war was something we still don't understand completely. Dalaran was a ruin back then, and we don't know even where the Six (of the remainer ones of them) were at the time. All information we have is that Modera and Ansirem were part of the group. Kael and his forces were imprisoned and set to be executed in the following day, we don't even know if Modera and Ansirem knew or tried to do something before Kael was rescued by Vashj.

They proved to be potential enemies by not even sending a single agent to help the blood elves imprisoned within their very city. It was only Vashij that busted them out a single kirin tor agent would have been enough to get them out, but quite the contrary happened with a former Kirin tor agent actually trying to make certain the blood elves die.

Any traitorous action that followed is not even remotely surprising, since both sides simply cannot trust one another anymore, since it's very foundation was shattered in TfT by the Kirin tor.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Come on, you are just painting everything he does in the worst way possible and make this discussion utterly irrational. I can agree with @Aucald's point on giving Felo'melorn in exchange to return to Dalaran, but before the Purge of Dalaran none of Aethas' actions are bad as you make them to be.

Oh? White washing the involvement of the Kirin'tor in letting 15% of his remaining, living people die isn't bad? being utterly forgiving of everything Dalaran and the Kirin'tor has done isn't bad? his inability to lead well, the moment he is free he makes a beeline to do anything required, even giving precious heirloom just to get his Kirin'tor collar back. He's owned by humans 100%, not even having them kill and imprison his people could get rid of his hardon for them, he is pathetic. The only reason I can only think of you attempting to salvage his character into any semblance of strength is the fact that you love the way he bends himself over for humanity in general, just like the high elves who still call themselves such do now.

Shadow of the sun portrayed him perfectly, a naive fool who doesn't have the brainpower to realize that Dalaran and the kirin'tor isn't some beacon of love for his people.

Rommath said it best.
The members of the Kirin Tor will swear up and down that
you are indispensable to them, that your skills are invaluable. The moment you become
inconvenient, you will be discarded." He cocked his head to the side, one long ear twitching
almost imperceptibly as his eyes slid first to Halduron, then to Lor'themar. "Ask them. They know.
But not as well as I."

The Kirin Tor was never the enemy of Quel'thalas, both nations worked well for millenia. What happened in the third war was something we still don't understand completely. Dalaran was a ruin back then, and we don't know even where the Six (of the remainer ones of them) were at the time. All information we have is that Modera and Ansirem were part of the group. Kael and his forces were imprisoned and set to be executed in the following day, we don't even know if Modera and Ansirem knew or tried to do something before Kael was rescued by Vashj.

That's not how that works. Dalaran and the Kirin'tor made themselves the enemy of Quel'thalas the moment they did nothing to help Kaelthas, not even that but Kirin'tor security activyl working to try to stop their escape? The Kirin'tor deserved to burn, and Aetheas worship of them is not only sickening, it's unrealistic, and makes his character all the more pathetic. It would be like if Jaina tried to stop the Alliance from attacking Orgrimmar after Garrosh bombed it.

Yes, he should. In that, I agree.

He really would fit in beautifully with the Silver Covenant.

I don't think he has any authority left. Maybe a few like-minded followers at most.

Except he still has his Sunreavers in Legion. Rommath made it quite clear he would never order a single blood elf into that human city.

[Aucald]

They proved to be potential enemies by not even sending a single agent to help the blood elves imprisoned within their very city. It was only Vashij that busted them out a single kirin tor agent would have been enough to get them out, but quite the contrary happened with a former Kirin tor agent actually trying to make certain the blood elves die.

Any traitorous action that followed is not even remotely surprising, since both sides simply cannot trust one another anymore, since it's very foundation was shattered in TfT by the Kirin tor.

I've often wondered exactly what Aethas thought of Kael'thas' imprisonment in Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's involvement in it and subsequent events happening later. We know from the "Mage" comic that he was present in Dalaran when it was preparing to take flight from Alterac to Northrend - which leads one to assume that Aethas was present there, as he was a member of the Six, when Kael and his forces were taken prisoner by Garithos. "Mage" doesn't seem to cover Aethas' take on the matter in any real sense - but it would definitely help to know that to get a better picture on why Aethas has made the decisions he has.

I've always assumed his primary allegiance was to Dalaran over Silvermoon, and given his location and his parallels with other High Elves in Dalaran I wonder exactly how he became a Blood Elf, and why he chose that particular cultural allegiance?

[Obelisk Kai]

Ooookay, let's reel it back in a little - I both don't need those mental images haunting my shriveled soul and we're collectively getting too off the topic at hand.

Can't be that bad mentally unless Genn has wolfed out. Which, given the circumstances, I guess he would.

[Arrashi]

I've often wondered exactly what Aethas thought of Kael'thas' imprisonment in Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's involvement in it and subsequent events happening later. We know from the "Mage" comic that he was present in Dalaran when it was preparing to take flight from Alterac to Northrend - which leads one to assume that Aethas was present there, as he was a member of the Six, when Kael and his forces were taken prisoner by Garithos. "Mage" doesn't seem to cover Aethas' take on the matter in any real sense - but it would definitely help to know that to get a better picture on why Aethas has made the decisions he has.

I've always assumed his primary allegiance was to Dalaran over Silvermoon, and given his location and his parallels with other High Elves in Dalaran I wonder exactly how he became a Blood Elf, and why he chose that particular cultural allegiance?

He always struck me as greater good/lesser evil kind of guy, who will find excuse for everything and turn blind eye.

[ello]

I'm pretty sure the jailor Kael'thas and his forces had to go through at the end of that misson was a former friend to the sun king, no wonder Rommath hates them so much.

On another note, if Aethas does become a Void Elf , will Blizz give the Horde an Alliance traitor for the sake of parity? If so, who?

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm pretty sure the jailor Kael'thas and his forces had to go through at the end of that misson was a former friend to the sun king, no wonder Rommath hates them so much.

On another note, if Aethas does become a Void Elf , will Blizz give the Horde an Alliance traitor for the sake of parity? If so, who?

I have a theory that without Veressa holding them back and with the Void Elves joining the Alliance, the silver covenant might go back home to Silvermoon.

Just a theory.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I've often wondered exactly what Aethas thought of Kael'thas' imprisonment in Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's involvement in it and subsequent events happening later. We know from the "Mage" comic that he was present in Dalaran when it was preparing to take flight from Alterac to Northrend - which leads one to assume that Aethas was present there, as he was a member of the Six, when Kael and his forces were taken prisoner by Garithos. "Mage" doesn't seem to cover Aethas' take on the matter in any real sense - but it would definitely help to know that to get a better picture on why Aethas has made the decisions he has.

I've always assumed his primary allegiance was to Dalaran over Silvermoon, and given his location and his parallels with other High Elves in Dalaran I wonder exactly how he became a Blood Elf, and why he chose that particular cultural allegiance?

Probably got locked outside of the Dalaran bubble, and came sniveling to Quel'thalas until it reappeared. What ever the reason is he seems to have a hard on for walking the line of treason time and time again.

[Arrashi]

I'm pretty sure the jailor Kael'thas and his forces had to go through at the end of that misson was a former friend to the sun king, no wonder Rommath hates them so much.

On another note, if Aethas does become a Void Elf , will Blizz give the Horde an Alliance traitor for the sake of parity? If so, who?

Topper McNabb, leader of new horde subrace - hobos.

[Obelisk Kai]

Probably got locked outside of the Dalaran bubble, and came sniveling to Quel'thalas until it reappeared. What ever the reason is he seems to have a hard on for walking the line of treason time and time again.

You know this is going to turn out we are being overly mean if Aethas ISN'T the source of the Void Elves.

Fun though.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You know this is going to turn out we are being overly mean if Aethas ISN'T the source of the Void Elves.

Fun though.

It's never mean enough until Aethas is dead. At which point he can be dumped in the dead scar somewhere.

[DeicideUH]

Oh? White washing the involvement of the Kirin'tor in letting 15% of his remaining, living people die isn't bad?

We never saw the Kirin Tor's PoV on the whole situation. All we know is that Dalaran was ruined and Garithos was leading a group of Alliance remnant. I can't judge the Kirin Tor based only on Rommath's PoV, because that's an incomplete picture. Rommath is not an unbiased PoV.

The only reason I can only think of you attempting to salvage his character into any semblance of strength is the fact that you love the way he bends himself over for humanity in general, just like the high elves who still call themselves such do now.

Or because I like idealistic characters because they are unlikely to start wars.

Rommath said it best.

Rommath has his own bias. He's an unreliable narrator, and Warcraft 3 events were never really explained well. In WC3, Dalaran appeared abandoned, so we don't know the canon status of it back then.

Except he still has his Sunreavers in Legion. Rommath made it quite clear he would never order a single blood elf into that human city.

Probably a small number of like-minded followers. We have nothing to conclude these Sunreavers are as numerous as the original ones. I guess most Sunreavers were long-time citizens of Dalaran who still see it as their home.

[Combatbutler]

I've often wondered exactly what Aethas thought of Kael'thas' imprisonment in Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's involvement in it and subsequent events happening later. We know from the "Mage" comic that he was present in Dalaran when it was preparing to take flight from Alterac to Northrend - which leads one to assume that Aethas was present there, as he was a member of the Six, when Kael and his forces were taken prisoner by Garithos. "Mage" doesn't seem to cover Aethas' take on the matter in any real sense - but it would definitely help to know that to get a better picture on why Aethas has made the decisions he has.

I've always assumed his primary allegiance was to Dalaran over Silvermoon, and given his location and his parallels with other High Elves in Dalaran I wonder exactly how he became a Blood Elf, and why he chose that particular cultural allegiance?

I'd say he arrived after Garithos was gone and the Krin tor began reconstruction proper, after all dalaran left ca 4-5 years after the events of TfT and the krin tor being the opportunists they are saw it as a possibility to mend the relations they screwed up, trying to get the elves to help them out if they need them again. Which happened in Wotlk.

After all Garithos would have lumped all elves in the city together trying to get rid of them all.

[Magnagarde]

Any high elf that isn't on board with Quel'thalas will usually get a lot of hate from the MMOC lore community. It's a pattern that can easily be observed across the lore subsection.

These people talked about how Alleria is an amazing high elf that will obviously side with Quel'thalas once she is reintroduced to the universe. The moment they realized she won't be on board with Quel'thalas, the bashing commenced. We don't even know wether Aethas will be on board with her or the Alliance, but he is already getting his fair share of hate. It feels like everyone has their own elven preference based on the faction they're in.

[Combatbutler]

Rommath has his own bias. He's an unreliable narrator, and Warcraft 3 events were never really explained well. In WC3, Dalaran appeared abandoned, so we don't know the canon status of it back then.

We have more than enough indicators, we know members of the kirin tor lived relatively close to the city, we know that a single infiltrator would have been enough to set the blood elves free, we know Garithos men were behind his decision and we know former members of the kirin tor actually tried to kill the blood elves. This coupled with Rommath's view and Modera not setting a foot into Silvermoon is enough to paint a clear enough picture.

- - - Updated - - -

These people talked about how Alleria is an amazing high elf that will obviously side with Quel'thalas once she is reintroduced to the universe. The moment they realized she won't be on board with Quel'thalas, the bashing commenced. We don't even know wether Aethas will be on board with her or the Alliance, but he is already getting his fair share of hate.

The only one who promoted that particular point was kangodo as far as I recall. And Aethas gets hate because he is an Idiot.

[Aquamonkey]

I've often wondered exactly what Aethas thought of Kael'thas' imprisonment in Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's involvement in it and subsequent events happening later. We know from the "Mage" comic that he was present in Dalaran when it was preparing to take flight from Alterac to Northrend - which leads one to assume that Aethas was present there, as he was a member of the Six, when Kael and his forces were taken prisoner by Garithos. "Mage" doesn't seem to cover Aethas' take on the matter in any real sense - but it would definitely help to know that to get a better picture on why Aethas has made the decisions he has.

I got the impression that Aethas went to Dalaran afterwards. It doesn't make sense for Vereesa to fight against Aethas' admission into the Kirin Tor before WC3.

This was Archmage Aethas Sunreaver, the blood elf who had struggled as hard to gain admittance into the Kirin Tor as Vereesa had struggled to forbid it.
--Tides of War

That's about general KT admission, not even appointment into Council of Six. It's mentioned that Aethas' rise through the ranks in Dalaran was unusually fast.

From his letters—and third-party rumors—Lor'themar understood Aethas to be idealistic yet shrewd, and far too young for the position he had carved for himself in Dalaran.
--In the Shadow of the Sun

[Arrashi]

I'd say he arrived after Garithos was gone and the Krin tor began reconstruction proper, after all dalaran left ca 4-5 years after the events of TfT and the krin tor being the opportunists they are saw it as a possibility to mend the relations they screwed up, trying to get the elves to help them out if they need them again. Which happened in Wotlk.

After all Garithos would have lumped all elves in the city together trying to get rid of them all.

Makes me wonder, where was veressa and silver covenant back then ?

[Friendlyimmolation]

We never saw the Kirin Tor's PoV on the whole situation. All we know is that Dalaran was ruined and Garithos was leading a group of Alliance remnant. I can't judge the Kirin Tor based only on Rommath's PoV, because that's an incomplete picture. Rommath is not an unbiased PoV.

The Kirin'tor fought against Kael'thas's escape, and then they only beg for Quel'thalas to come back after the mage war started. NOTHING, has shown it to be different then how it was portrayed, and it portrayed the Kirin'tor as duplicitous backstabbing leeches.

Or because I like idealistic characters because they are unlikely to start wars.

Aethas is far beyond the term idealistic, he's a pipe dream of idealistic, hell he'd probably give the sunwell to the Kirin'tor if he could.

Rommath has his own bias. He's an unreliable narrator, and Warcraft 3 events were never really explained well. In WC3, Dalaran appeared abandoned, so we don't know the canon status of it back then.

Again, nothing disproves what he said, the fact that Dalaran soilders fought against the blood elves' escape only cements that.

Probably a small number of like-minded followers. We have nothing to conclude these Sunreavers are as numerous as the original ones. I guess most Sunreavers were long-time citizens of Dalaran who still see it as their home.

In which they deserve to rot in if they would still rather live in a city who betrayed them twice over their homeland.

[Combatbutler]

Makes me wonder, where was veressa and silver covenant back then ?

Vereesa was sitting outside of the city in her little home alongside mister red hair, not to mention up until that point there hadn't been a split between the elves.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Makes me wonder, where was veressa and silver covenant back then ?

Riding Rhonin, so she got a free pass.

- - - Updated - - -

I got the impression that Aethas went to Dalaran afterwards. It doesn't make sense for Vereesa to fight against Aethas' admission into the Kirin Tor before WC3.

This was Archmage Aethas Sunreaver, the blood elf who had struggled as hard to gain admittance into the Kirin Tor as Vereesa had struggled to forbid it.
--Tides of War

That's about general KT admission, not even appointment into Council of Six. It's mentioned that Aethas' rise through the ranks in Dalaran was unusually fast.

From his letters—and third-party rumors—Lor'themar understood Aethas to be idealistic yet shrewd, and far too young for the position he had carved for himself in Dalaran.
--In the Shadow of the Sun

Probably because they realized how much of a suckup he was to the Kirin'tor, what better way to encourage his treasonous ways then to give him a semblance of leadership?