[SPECULATION] Queen Azshara of Zin'Azshara, the first ever mutated Zandalari Troll?

[vertigo12]

The Dark Trolls were part of the Empire of Zul 16,000 years ago. As stated before, that doesn't exist anymore. Even if you're thinking about the Zandalari Empire, that only has Zandalari in it. The Dark Trolls, since before the Kaldorei Empire, never had a true empire of their own, and were not citizens of the Zandalari Empire.

Just to make it clear, each troll subrace has had their own cultures, tribes, and empires. Not even ever troll race is unified - we see forest trolls fight each other in the Hinterlands, and two jungle troll tribes are always at war with one another in Stranglethorn Vale. Some of them joined Zul after the Cataclysm, but even then not every troll did - even Rastakhan and Vol'jin didn't join Zul. The idea of a "united troll empire" isn't entirely accurate anymore. It was successful 16,000 years ago to defeat the Aqir, and it was unsuccessful under Zul a few years ago.




The "Zul Empire" doesn't exist. It's the Zandalari Empire. Zandalar has four main factions in BfA: Rastakhan's forces (Horde), Zul's forces (Cata/MoP enemies), Blood Trolls, and Sethrak, which aren't considered entirely "citizens" of the main Zandalari government due to them being cast out/separated for 10,000 years.

Empire of Zul or Zul Empire is basicall Zandalari Empire which exist in Zandalar. It is a lengthy read so give time to check wiki entry out.


When I specifically say Zandalari I mean Zul empire not inhabitants of Zandalar Isle so, Sethrek race are disregarded since they don't belong to the Troll race and specifially Zandalar empire.

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The Dark Trolls were part of the Empire of Zul 16,000 years ago. As stated before, that doesn't exist anymore. Even if you're thinking about the Zandalari Empire, that only has Zandalari in it. The Dark Trolls, since before the Kaldorei Empire, never had a true empire of their own, and were not citizens of the Zandalari Empire.

Just to make it clear, each troll subrace has had their own cultures, tribes, and empires. Not even ever troll race is unified - we see forest trolls fight each other in the Hinterlands, and two jungle troll tribes are always at war with one another in Stranglethorn Vale. Some of them joined Zul after the Cataclysm, but even then not every troll did - even Rastakhan and Vol'jin didn't join Zul. The idea of a "united troll empire" isn't entirely accurate anymore. It was successful 16,000 years ago to defeat the Aqir, and it was unsuccessful under Zul a few years ago.




The "Zul Empire" doesn't exist. It's the Zandalari Empire. Zandalar has four main factions in BfA: Rastakhan's forces (Horde), Zul's forces (Cata/MoP enemies), Blood Trolls, and Sethrak, which aren't considered entirely "citizens" of the main Zandalari government due to them being cast out/separated for 10,000 years.

Empire of Zul or Zul Empire is basicall Zandalari Empire which exist in Zandalar. It is a lengthy read so give time to check wiki entry out.

Although it is said to have a defunct status. Therw was already a story progression happening already starting with 4.0 with Rise of Zul as well as the Thunder King Patch. The reason why Rhastakhan let Zul set sail on expedition is to notify the splintered smaller empires to unite and meet up once again.

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You've been told at least ten times now that the answer to that question is No. It won't change by repeating the question over and over.

Do present any bluepost, official press release, In-game text entries, existing publications that directly says she was never a Dark Troll. If you cannot present any then I would take it as mere presumption and hypothesis.

[Deleted]

Do present any bluepost, official press release, In-game text entries, existing publications that directly says she was never a Dark Troll. If you cannot present any then I would take it as mere presumption and hypothesis.

They DID. It's called WARCRAFT CHRONICLE. Chronicle states that she was NOT A TROLL as THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER ELVEN QUEENS BEFORE HER.

[vertigo12]

They DID. It's called WARCRAFT CHRONICLE. Chronicle states that she was NOT A TROLL as THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER ELVEN QUEENS BEFORE HER.

Please do post the lines quoted directly from chronicles. Do not force me to use the same source you keep on using and will ultimately shut you guys up.

[Grenzstein]

Please do post the lines quoted directly from chronicles. Do not force me to use the same source you keep on using and will ultimately shut you guys up.

Dude, seriously, people have been trying to correct you for 12 pages. Azshara can't be a "Dark Troll" because she was born during the Night Elf Empire and not before it. She was not the first Queen, she was just the most important.

[Destinas]

Empire of Zul or Zul Empire is basicall Zandalari Empire which exist in Zandalar. It is a lengthy read so give time to check wiki entry out.

Yeah, I've read that. You know that I linked that to you in the last page, right?

The Empire of Zul was certainly led by the Zandalari. They were the first trolls, and they once held a position of respect among all trolls for a long time. But the part you've been confused about is that the Zandalari Empire, Empire of Zul, and other troll cultures are all different things in different time periods. It's not called the "Empire of Zul" now, and it wasn't called that during the time of Azshara.

As stated in Chronicle, which I also quoted to you before, after the Aqir-Troll war, the term began to decline in use, because all trolls didn't have anything to bind them together anymore, and others created their own empires. The Zandalari and Dark Trolls are entirely different types of trolls with different looks, different tribes, and different locations on maps. The last we heard about Dark Trolls was that there was one tribe (the Shadowtooth tribe) that lived in caves on Mount Hyjal - they've been missing since the Cataclysm.

Even then, there's no correlation between Azshara and Rastakhan stated anywhere in official lore, because Night Elves, Dark Trolls, and Zandalari are all completely different beings. You stated yourself that you "only accepted lore form in-game sources" - it was stated in an in-game book in MoP that Rastakhan has been ruling the Zandalari for 200 years. Azshara has been a naga for more than 10,000 years. Even if Rastakhan was alive for over 10,000 years (he hasn't been - but just for argument's sake), he hasn't been ruling at all for that long. So, why then, would Azshara even care about him, in that case? In return, why would he even have any opinion on her? As far as he knows, she was simply the Night Elf queen that sundered the world long before he was even born.

Do present any bluepost, official press release, In-game text entries, existing publications that directly says she was never a Dark Troll. If you cannot present any then I would take it as mere presumption and hypothesis.

Queen Azshara was born with golden eyes, which were quite rare in night elves before the Great Sundering.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Queen_Azshara
She was born as a night elf.

Now a thriving society in central Kalimdor, with their capital Elun'dris (meaning "Eye of Elune") on the banks of the Well of Eternity itself, the kaldorei began to further explore the depths of the well, and were subsequently introduced to magic and sorcery.

During this period of prosperity, a new leader emerged among the kaldorei. Ascending to the throne, the ambitious and deeply beloved Queen Azshara now set the Kaldorei Empire on the path to true greatness, as well as great destruction

All, however, were part of the highest social strata of kaldorei society, and possessed a distinct belief in their self-superiority over the 'lower-born' majority of night elves. This did not impress the other kaldorei who, in turn, developed an ever-present animosity for the egotistic Highborne. Significantly, this resentment did not extend to the Queen herself, who was looked upon with such adoration by the populace that the kaldorei capital was renamed Zin-Azshari or "The Glory of Azshara", in her honor.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kaldorei_Empire
There was a capital and leaders before her, when there were already Night Elves. After she rose to power, the Night Elf commoners (despite hating the Highborne) renamed the capital in her honor.

Those sources are compiled mostly from Chronicle Volume 1 and the War of the Ancients novel trilogy, where most information about Azshara comes from. However, he's a very recent one: the artifact lore in the shaman order hall, about Azshara's personal magic weapon. It's even in-game!

The ancient night elf empire was one of the greatest mortal civilizations that ever spanned the lands of Azeroth. At its apex, one figure held sway over it all. Her name was Azshara. She was a leader of leaders, a queen of queens. Her power was absolute, and her thirst for knowledge and glory was unquenchable.

Apex. As in, the highest point, the golden age. Azshara was the last queen of the Kaldorei Empire, and by using context there, it means that she became the queen at the golden age of the empire. Not before.

You're not going to find anything that says "Azshara was never a troll" - that doesn't exist. The reason that doesn't exist is because when her birth is mentioned, it's mentioned that she had rare night elven golden eyes - as mentioned before, that's a myth only from night elves. Before you link a bunch of troll pictures with yellow eyes again, Dark Trolls are different than Darkspear Jungle Trolls. Dark Trolls have purple eyes, the last we saw them in a game at all:

And, she couldn't have been born as a Zandalari as the title suggests, because in the most recent iteration of the Zandalari models they have teal eyes:

[Zulkhan]

To think that I believed ravenmoon to be kind of obnoxious when it came to defend a theory of his...but the OP here is fucking incredible.

[Syegfryed]

how this come to 12 pages?

[Fyersing]

I was baited into reading the entirety of the first page. What a mistake that turned out to be.

[Marcellus1986]

To think that I believed ravenmoon to be kind of obnoxious when it came to defend a theory of his...but the OP here is fucking incredible.

He is regurgitating conspiracy nonsense every time he posts. No matter how much proof you give to him on a silver platter, he keeps repeating the same drivel over and over. Then when you trigger him enough he tells you to kill yourself basically and then makes sock puppet accounts when he gets actioned to keep harassing you and spreading his garbage.

Dark Trolls were not part of the Zandalari Empire.
They had nothing to do with troll civilization at large, other than being trolls.
Azshara wasn’t a dark troll, she was an elf and also wasn’t their first leader.
She DEFINITELY wasn’t a Zandalari troll.

Expect OP to come in here blithering again soon.

[SoulSoBreezy]

PRECAUTION

Is Queen Azshara the first mutated Troll along with the dark trolls who have migrated near the sundered Well of Eternity now left and known as Maelstrom and what lies beneathe, Naz'jatar?

Looks like you missed this in the thread, but the entire premise of your speculation falls flat:

"Mesmerized by their discovery, the dark trolls settled along the Well of Eternity's shores. Over generations, the energies radiating from the lake suffused the trolls' flesh and bones, elevating their forms to match their graceful spirits." Chronicles pg. 93

It was an evolution from exposure, not a mutation, that led to the creation of the Kaldorei. There's no mystery to be solved.

[Evangeliste]

PRECAUTION

This whole thread ignores the existence of the Mogu. The Zandalari were involved with the Mogu. We had a whole expansion explaining that involvement and how they got back together with them "once more". Chronicles yo.

My thoughts are the Troll/Mogu bro-shipping was happening, some grew discontent and went to the Well of Eternity, heck this relationship is probably WHY they went. They, the Trolls were surrounded by Titanic stuff thanks to the Mogu and went to the Well as it is Titanic blood and the direct relation isn't a push with Pandaria.

Which means just with Mogu and Trolls being around and all that history itself, shows that ... Azshara will never be in the situation you're hoping for. She never recalls any adventure or anything Titanic. Just Elune and of the city past, people in that city and so on.

And sorry, if you've seen shit like the Titan stuff and whatnot, I doubt you'll down the mystical, romantic bullshit route of some deity in the Moon when you've seen much more hardcore and REAL evidence of decent magic at play, like a Titan machine. It even denounces her accepting an Old God's gift because she would know a lot more like the Titans and being power hungry, go with what she has seen not what's bargained.

[vertigo12]

This whole thread ignores the existence of the Mogu. The Zandalari were involved with the Mogu. We had a whole expansion explaining that involvement and how they got back together with them "once more". Chronicles yo.

My thoughts are the Troll/Mogu bro-shipping was happening, some grew discontent and went to the Well of Eternity, heck this relationship is probably WHY they went. They, the Trolls were surrounded by Titanic stuff thanks to the Mogu and went to the Well as it is Titanic blood and the direct relation isn't a push with Pandaria.

Which means just with Mogu and Trolls being around and all that history itself, shows that ... Azshara will never be in the situation you're hoping for. She never recalls any adventure or anything Titanic. Just Elune and of the city past, people in that city and so on.

And sorry, if you've seen shit like the Titan stuff and whatnot, I doubt you'll down the mystical, romantic bullshit route of some deity in the Moon when you've seen much more hardcore and REAL evidence of decent magic at play, like a Titan machine. It even denounces her accepting an Old God's gift because she would know a lot more like the Titans and being power hungry, go with what she has seen not what's bargained.

The thing is they keep on using The Chronicles as "THE SOURCE" when people forgot that after the entries done to that book, the story has progressed already and took another mile. Take your Mogu explanation. Actually I'm under an investigation and so far I have pieced as much and it seems that Night Elves, then the reclusive,isolationist Dark Trolls who chose the peaceful path and never participated in the war; The Aqir War to be exact- A war that the Troll Empire fought and won then suddenly it coincidentally put to halt. The Night Elven civilization started to make an empire, it flourished and then boom. The Night Elves are on top and started to dominate Ancient Kalimdor.

And another major thing that I noticed about the Chronicles entries. It is not a compendium. There are missing information and data. The stories lack specific and precise details that would complete the whole picture as it leaves the stories in it to be an open-ended entry and ambiguity.

[Marcellus1986]

The thing is they keep on using The Chronicles as "THE SOURCE" when people forgot that after the entries done to that book, the story has progressed already and took another mile. Take your Mogu explanation. Actually I'm under an investigation and so far I have pieced as much and it seems that Night Elves, then the reclusive,isolationist Dark Trolls who chose the peaceful path and never participated in the war; The Aqir War to be exact- A war that the Troll Empire fought and won then suddenly it coincidentally put to halt. The Night Elven civilization started to make an empire, it flourished and then boom. The Night Elves are on top and started to dominate Ancient Kalimdor.

And another major thing that I noticed about the Chronicles entries. It is not a compendium. There are missing information and data. The stories lack specific and precise details that would complete the whole picture as it leaves the stories in it to be an open-ended entry and ambiguity.

Stop trying to fool people. You definitely haven’t read any of the Chronicles. The story told in the first (which is where you are making your assumptions from) hasn’t changed one bit.

Also on what authority are you to question that the Chronicle is incomplete? You’ve rarely if ever resorted to actually posting proof from any source other than what you conjure up in your mind.

This is readily apparent in you continuously referring to Azshara as a Zandalari troll, despite the fact that multiple sources disprove that, multiple people have pointed it out to you, and you still keep on with your claims.

Azshara wasn’t a troll, and no lore presented paints her as such. The onus of proof is on you and you haven’t made any effort to validate your argument.

[vertigo12]

Looks like you missed this in the thread, but the entire premise of your speculation falls flat:

"Mesmerized by their discovery, the dark trolls settled along the Well of Eternity's shores. Over generations, the energies radiating from the lake suffused the trolls' flesh and bones, elevating their forms to match their graceful spirits." Chronicles pg. 93

It was an evolution from exposure, not a mutation, that led to the creation of the Kaldorei. There's no mystery to be solved.

Indeed. It does says "over generations" but the peculiar thing about that phrase is, no entries of any genealogy, any record or list of names who reigned or even who are prominent have been mentioned.

Take several NPC or major characters and associated or related details about them:
- Windrunner sisters: Recently the eldest which is Alleria is now brought in the forefront after her story being missing. Although in-game she have been mentioned. There are existing NPC who are related to her. Vereesa and Warchief-Banshee Queen Sylvanas.

- Sunstrider Dynasty: This is a well defined story and anthology of the Highborne now known as the High Elves/Blood Elves. Their story has progressed too far already and now the Ren'dorei will be added to their history. The Sunstrider dynasty mentions then leader Kael'thas, his father Anasterian and grandfather, Dathremar.

- Human genealogy: Over the expansion and upto now the Human lineage is pretty much define starting from Warcraft:Orcs vs. Human. High King Anduin Wrynn's heritage. The Stormwind Kingdom, the Arathi and Arathor. The only enigma left to be discovered are the citizens and heirarchy of Kul'tirans which will be unveiled in the next Expansion.

- Dwarven civilization: Their ancestry have been finally solved thanks to that glorious expansion of WotLK. Their storyline is now moving to another chapter as the Dark Iron Dwarves will be introduced. Take note that the Bronzebeards, the Dark Iron monarchy - Dragan, Thaurissan and Modgud, as well as Moira have entries.

- Azshara on the other hand as a character profile has ?????? Her identity, her past, her history as a queen and her reign, her ascenion,her lineage, the complete details about her is still shrouded in mystery just like how she is like now. Entirely enigmatic.

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Stop trying to fool people. You definitely haven’t read any of the Chronicles. The story told in the first (which is where you are making your assumptions from) hasn’t changed one bit.

Also on what authority are you to question that the Chronicle is incomplete? You’ve rarely if ever resorted to actually posting proof from any source other than what you conjure up in your mind.

This is readily apparent in you continuously referring to Azshara as a Zandalari troll, despite the fact that multiple sources disprove that, multiple people have pointed it out to you, and you still keep on with your claims.

Azshara wasn’t a troll, and no lore presented paints her as such. The onus of proof is on you and you haven’t made any effort to validate your argument.

You want the proof and an evidence? I have a copy of her entire page. I know what is written and none that you have claim is exactly as written on those pages.

If I am able to post the exact page and entry of Azshara promise me to shut up. And eat what you have said that I'm fooling anybody and I haven't read about it.

Sorry mr. Chronicles fanboy. I'm not as diehard fan as you are. I'm just practical and I as much as I could, I try to be level headed and get too gullible. You don't need to be a WoW addict, or lore fanatic to even see the fact that there are lots of details that Chronicles fail to mention in the book. It was did on purpose as there are no more things to tackle and talked about if they would publish everything in that same book. You wouldn't have Vol. 2 and the upcoming Vol.3.

[Marcellus1986]

Indeed. It does says "over generations" but the peculiar thing about that phrase is, no entries of any genealogy, any record or list of names who reigned or even who are prominent have been mentioned.

Take several NPC or major characters and associated or related details about them:
- Windrunner sisters: Recently the eldest which is Alleria is now brought in the forefront after her story being missing. Although in-game she have been mentioned. There are existing NPC who are related to her. Vereesa and Warchief-Banshee Queen Sylvanas.

- Sunstrider Dynasty: This is a well defined story and anthology of the Highborne now known as the High Elves/Blood Elves. Their story has progressed too far already and now the Ren'dorei will be added to their history. The Sunstrider dynasty mentions then leader Kael'thas, his father Anasterian and grandfather, Dathremar.

- Human genealogy: Over the expansion and upto now the Human lineage is pretty much define starting from Warcraft:Orcs vs. Human. High King Anduin Wrynn's heritage. The Stormwind Kingdom, the Arathi and Arathor. The only enigma left to be discovered are the citizens and heirarchy of Kul'tirans which will be unveiled in the next Expansion.

- Dwarven civilization: Their ancestry have been finally solved thanks to that glorious expansion of WotLK. Their storyline is now moving to another chapter as the Dark Iron Dwarves will be introduced. Take note that the Bronzebeards, the Dark Iron monarchy - Dragan, Thaurissan and Modgud, as well as Moira have entries.

- Azshara on the other hand as a character profile has ?????? Her identity, her past, her history as a queen and her reign, her ascenion,her lineage, the complete details about her is still shrouded in mystery just like how she is like now. Entirely enigmatic.

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You want the proof and an evidence? I have a copy of her entire page. I know what is written and none that you have claim is exactly as written on those pages.

If I am able to post the exact page and entry of Azshara promise me to shut up. And eat what you have said that I'm fooling anybody and I haven't read about it.

Feel free to read because trolls are only mentioned once in her biography and HINT: She isn’t one.

Sorry mr. Chronicles fanboy. I'm not as diehard fan as you are. I'm just practical and I as much as I could, I try to be level headed and get too gullible. You don't need to be a WoW addict, or lore fanatic to even see the fact that there are lots of details that Chronicles fail to mention in the book. It was did on purpose as there are no more things to tackle and talked about if they would publish everything in that same book. You wouldn't have Vol. 2 and the upcoming Vol.3.

The Chronicle Volume One sets the tone and establishes the ordering of the universe and Azeroth. Volumes 2 and 3 deal with different things. So no, as I stated, the story hasn’t changed. The lore presented in Chronicle volume one is static and unchanging.

The only person claiming otherwise is you and you haven’t presented one iota of evidence to disprove it.

[huth]

If I am able to post the exact page and entry of Azshara promise me to shut up. And eat what you have said that I'm fooling anybody and I haven't read about it.

You have three days, starting from the time of this post, to post conclusive evidence of your claims from at least one reliable source. Go.

[vertigo12]

You have three days, starting from the time of this post, to post conclusive evidence of your claims from at least one reliable source. Go.

You don't have to give me a deadline because I don't need your three days. Consider it done already even before you started making this post.

"Although the queen was born of the highest noble pedigree, night elves of every social standing adore her."

It wasn't even stated "Although the queen was born *as a Night Elf* of the highest noble pedigree.
Thus the speculation if she was born of the highest noble pedigree and she lineage of being a Night Elf= thus were Dark Trolls...

[Marcellus1986]

You don't have to give me a deadline because I don't need your three days. Consider it done already even before you started making this post.

Neither WoWwiki nor WoWpedia mention her being a troll in any way, shape or form. So this is going to be hilarious watching you try to defend yourself.

[vertigo12]

Feel free to read because trolls are only mentioned once in her biography and HINT: She isn’t one.



The Chronicle Volume One sets the tone and establishes the ordering of the universe and Azeroth. Volumes 2 and 3 deal with different things. So no, as I stated, the story hasn’t changed. The lore presented in Chronicle volume one is static and unchanging.

The only person claiming otherwise is you and you haven’t presented one iota of evidence to disprove it.

Here we go again. You do certainly lack the skills and characteristics needed for investigatory analysis. You can only just see the page stuck on your nose. It's too hard for you to read in between lines and look for context clues. You're certainly not fit to discuss this kind of topic so better stay off and go bash in your politics forums.

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Neither WoWwiki nor WoWpedia mention her being a troll in any way, shape or form. So this is going to be hilarious watching you try to defend yourself.

Do you speak English? Do you understand English? Do you understand the meaning of the word "speculative" and investigative? Do you even know the meaning of the word ambiguous? Study English first before discussing things to me.

I stand to be corrected. It's not necessary for you to study English. Better review the necessary skills of READING AND COMPREHENSION. It seems you need to learn about the fundamentals of it. Learn context clues. Learn reading between the lines. The same goes for every person who are the likes of you and keeps on using Chronicles but fail so hard in putting up a profound evidence.

[Marcellus1986]

Here we go again. You do certainly lack the skills and characteristics needed for investigatory analysis. You can only just the page stuck on your nose. It's too hard for you to read in between lines and look for context clues. You're certainly not fit to discuss this kind of topic so better stay off and go bash in your politics forums.

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Do you speak English? Do you understand English? Do you understand the meaning of the word "speculative" and investigative? Do you even know the meaning of the word ambiguous? Study English first before discussing things to me.

I stand to be corrected. It's not necessary for you to study English. Better review the necessary skills of READING AND COMPREHENSION. It seems you need to learn about the fundamentals of it. Learn context clues. Learn reading between the lines. The same goes for every person who are the likes of you and keeps on using Chronicles but fail so hard in putting up a profound evidence.

You have none of these things and have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt you have none of these things for 13 pages now. Reading between the lines is short-hand for conjecture, or in your case ‘making up bullshit as it comes into my brain’.

Myself and others have posted concrete sources to back our arguments up. You’re posting conspiracy nonsense, ad hominem and nothing else.

Either post your proof like you said you would or shut up.

No one takes you seriously.