My thoughts on the Rogue's current state (Fantasy vs Gameplay)

[Feida]

Disclaimer: I posted this on the WoW forums a while ago, but I thought it would be a good idea to gather opinions from here as well.

The following is coming from a pure PvE perspective.

In Legion, the Rogue specs have received many thematic and visual changes in order to portray truly unique themes. This is a change that many of us have been requesting and anticipating for a while, and I am glad to see that it has finally been brought to fruition... However, while I welcome the visual and aesthetic changes with open arms, I can’t say the same for the gameplay changes that came with it.

Heavy mechanical changes were made in an attempt to compliment the specs' newly proposed fantasy… While I consider some to be good changes, some of it is just a downright frustration, and have honestly crippled the enjoyment I once had with this class.

Assassination
As dictated by its revised fantasy, Assassination’s playstyle now has a significant focus on single target uptime. Before Legion, Assassination was highly regarded as the “melee dot spec”, or "melee affliction" by many, which excelled on 2-3 target encounters. What was especially fun was knowing that the more targets you have Ruptured (w/ Poison) the faster your rotation would become. While this is still possible and somewhat relevant today, there are many new mechanics that de-emphasize this as target switching can incur a significant DPS loss.

Before Legion, the major ability that would encourage sticking to one target was Vendetta, now we have the additions Surge of Toxins, Toxic Blade, and Kingsbane. While these add some much needed complexity to the single target rotation, it greatly discourages target switching within these windows. This is especially apparent when you consider how short Kingsbane and Vendetta’s cooldowns can be thanks to Artifact Traits and Relics.

I miss the amount of freedom Assassination had in multi-target encounters and I wish this could be reinvigorated in the future. I don't think it's right to declare Assassination as a single target focused spec because its name suggests that kind of playstyle.

Subtlety
Subtlety’s current state is an improvement over the 7.0 edition, and in general I am happy with the direction the spec is taking. Although, there are a couple of areas that I believe could use some revision.

Subtlety right now is arguably more complex than it needs to be, and resource management is honestly in shambles. Energy capping and combo-point overflow is at an all time high, and attempting to achieve optimal resource management is currently a nightmare. Despite this, I am still capable of doing a reasonable amount of damage even though I am energy or combo point capped 40% of the time, this simply does not feel right.

At the moment, I actually consider Subtlety to have not 2 but 3 main resources thanks to Shadow Dance’s charges and cooldown reduction system. In fact, I see many people using Weak Auras to create a Shadow Dance tracker in the form of a progress bar, which is generally located alongside their Combo Point and Energy trackers. I’m happy to see complexity opposed to simplicity, but when you consider the many different mechanics and resources that need to be monitored with Subtlety, I think it's a bit be too excessive.

In my opinion, Subtlety compliments its fantasy way better than the other 2 specs, and I have very little complaints in this regard. Although, I think its philosophy as a "patient ninja" may be selling the spec short from a greater potential. I would label Assassination to be the "patient elaborate planner", why must Subtlety have this concept as well? If Subtlety had a more aggressive but calculated playstyle, I honestly think it could do wonders.

Outlaw
As for Outlaw… this one probably frustrates me the most. With all things considered, Combat was considered to be one of the most consistent specs in the game pre-Legion. In Legion however, Outlaw turned out to be one of the most inconsistent specs in the game, which is absolutely astonishing. Roll the Bones, in my opinion, has no place in a game like this... I'm happy we no longer have Bandit's Guile, but Roll the Bones is not an improvement... at the very least in its current iteration.

The pirate theme is arguably very similar to the spec's preceding theme. I don't understand why such drastic changes had to be made in order to live up to its "new" fantasy. In all honesty, if only minor mechanical changes were made in the "transition" from Combat to Outlaw, it would be just as believable.

Conclusion
I believe drastic gameplay changes should not have been molded onto the major aesthetic changes. Aesthetics should have been molded onto the existing, time-developed gameplay mechanics and playstyles, with minor changes/additions being welcome.

Thank you to anyone who took the time to read this, and I look forward to reading any opinions / thoughts if any.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

I agree. Class fantasy is real nice for rogues imo. The gameplay however is fucking terrible for the most part. I hate being forced into one spec for one. That being sub this tier as a mythic raider. I've always been a sin fanboy. But i would love for them to all be as fluid as sin has been/was. Fuck it, i'd even go as far as saying i'd like to be able to play outlaw when i feel like it. I know this isnt a viability post. But that does have some impact on gameplay. Sub is the clunkiest spec i feel i have ever played on this game. And i've played everything.

[Critical92]

The reason sub is overflowing with energy is the feeding frenzy trait.
If a sub player use goremaw's bite, he will gain 30 energy over a few secs and the next 3 finisher cost 0 energy.
On top of that come the 40 energy of SoD and the small energy gains of shtechnics. That screams for energy overcap.
Since the trait was known, i said it should just make the next 3 finisher refund the cp spend. That way it stops the overcap and can work as a mini burst cd every min.
Would be a much better version than now.

[Zeernial]

Assassination is in a weird place.
The tier set giving garrote lower cooldown allowing you to place it on multiple targets feels nice, but all the other cooldowns make you just want to stick to one target.

Sub feels perfect for me, but only after I had the 4 set + gloves&shoulders.

Don't know much about outlaw but I like playing SnD instead of RtB

[Mafic]

Poisons.

Without poisons all three Rogue specs miss the mark fantasy wise.

Sub: Poisons that slowly cripple or slow you down.

Assassination: Master poisoner that needs a greater variety of poisons to choose from.

Outlaw: Plauge, scurvy... the spec is empty without poisons or nature damage.

[Deleted]

Outlaw fantasy is fine.
Its gameplay is not

[Hobbes0773]

omg i thought i was capping energy as a sub because i'm shit. Are you guys telling me that this is common?

fucking rogue discord...

[Critical92]

It should not happen that often, but it can happen. When you constantly overcap you are doing it wrong.

[Hobbes0773]

It should not happen that often, but it can happen. When you constantly overcap you are doing it wrong.

I overcap quite a bit out int he world. In a raid/dungeon setting where mobs last a bit longer I really only cap thanks to the gormaws bite trait.

[Critical92]

Out in the world i play not the raid build but a maximum shadowdance build. 1213232 Supterfuge for the mini dance opener, Enveloping Sh for 3 charges and MfD for instant cps. I play on a pvp server and i have always shadowdance ready and the dmg is high enough to even kill tanks with a reset inbetween.
The raid build is too much one trick pony outside of a raid and a total overkill for most mobs and even players.
With enough ES procs inside dance i also cap energy sometimes but most of the time i don't worry about energy management in open world because you go into stealth every time after you kill something and energy is back to 100%

[TemporalAnarchy]

Outlaw
As for Outlaw… this one probably frustrates me the most. With all things considered, Combat was considered to be one of the most consistent specs in the game pre-Legion. In Legion however, Outlaw turned out to be one of the most inconsistent specs in the game, which is absolutely astonishing. Roll the Bones, in my opinion, has no place in a game like this... I'm happy we no longer have Bandit's Guile, but Roll the Bones is not an improvement... at the very least in its current iteration.

The pirate theme is arguably very similar to the spec's preceding theme. I don't understand why such drastic changes had to be made in order to live up to its "new" fantasy. In all honesty, if only minor mechanical changes were made in the "transition" from Combat to Outlaw, it would be just as believable.

While I can agree with the inconsistency, I don't hate Roll the Bones as an idea. It was simply executed so very poorly. Though I think the bastardization they're using right now with 5 dice and stacked odds is one of the biggest abominations to come out of this expansion.

Rolling the bones is such a very pirate/outlaw thing to do that I can't imagine the spec from a fantasy standpoint without it. I just feel like they should have built it around different rules. Rolling a pair should always matter, even if it's alongside three of a kind. Three, four, five, and six of a kind shouldn't be the same as rolling a pair. Things like that. Just making those changes to the old 6-dice version would have brought the average outcome up significantly, likely easing the need for Loaded Dice. Replacing True Bearing with something else more in line with the other buffs would have also reduced the variance significantly; because that was one of the MAJOR issues for the first half of the expansion. Outlaw didn't function without True Bearing; Restless Blades was clearly a part of the core gameplay when the spec was designed, and when stripped out to become True Bearing it left a gaping hole.

Of course, I still believe if they were going all in on that fantasy, Adrenaline Rush should have been changed to a forced Straight and Cannonball Barrage and Grappling Hook should have both been baseline with their current talents modifying them in some way.

Poisons.

Without poisons all three Rogue specs miss the mark fantasy wise.

Sub: Poisons that slowly cripple or slow you down.

Assassination: Master poisoner that needs a greater variety of poisons to choose from.

Outlaw: Plauge, scurvy... the spec is empty without poisons or nature damage.

That's your opinion. I don't even slightly agree with you. I believe sticking to poisons as long as they did for all three specs really caused a lot of the feeling of the specs being too similar. I feel that poisons only served to dilute the fantasy of the individual specs by trying to force them into the generic rogue tropes, when the years of changes had been pushing them further and further from being generic rogues.

Also, I don't think you understand how plagues and scurvy work.

[Mafic]

That's your opinion. I don't even slightly agree with you. I believe sticking to poisons as long as they did for all three specs really caused a lot of the feeling of the specs being too similar. I feel that poisons only served to dilute the fantasy of the individual specs by trying to force them into the generic rogue tropes, when the years of changes had been pushing them further and further from being generic rogues.

Also, I don't think you understand how plagues and scurvy work.

All classes should have unifying themes for specs. For Rogues it should be poisons, CC and stealth.

If they followed through with what you believe then they would have removed cheap shot and sap from Outlaw in Legion alpha. But they found that to be too jarring and did not follow through.

But they did remove Blind from Assassination and Sub and it was simply a bad idea that they quickly reverted.

Poisons should return to Sub and Outlaw. And Gouge should be returned to Sub and Assassination as well.

[TemporalAnarchy]

All classes should have unifying themes for specs. For Rogues it should be poisons, CC and stealth.

If they followed through with what you believe then they would have removed cheap shot and sap from Outlaw in Legion alpha. But they found that to be too jarring and did not follow through.

But they did remove Blind from Assassination and Sub and it was simply a bad idea that they quickly reverted.

Poisons should return to Sub and Outlaw. And Gouge should be returned to Sub and Assassination as well.

Trying to put words in my mouth there. Poisons diluted the fantasy of Combat, imo, because swashbucklers DON'T poison people. Sub I can tolerate, it's simply that Blizzard is currently using shadow magic to fill the role for them that poisons would traditionally fill. Cheap Shot and Sap are fine. In fact, Cheap Shot and Sap are way MORE Outlaw/Subtlety flavored than for Assassination if you want to get really technical. But all three specs would assuredly engage in that sort of behavior from a flavor standpoint.

Rogues DO have unifying themes. We're all underhanded and shady. We all skulk in the shadows. We're not afraid to throw dirt in someone's face, knock them unconscious, poke them in the eyes, or take a cheap shot when the opportunity presents itself. We all pick locks, detect and disarm traps, evade attacks, uncannily dodge area of effect attacks, and sneak attack our enemies. These are the unifying themes of what it is to be a rogue. (For the most part, the core rogue fantasy is the D&D rogue.)

Anyway, it's Outlaw that I really can't get behind having poisons again. They don't make sense in any sort of the pirate or swashbuckler trope. As what is essentially an overlap between a rogue and warrior, they're really far more focused on their physical prowess.

I DO believe all specs should have some sort of bleed, though. It is definitely in the flavor of all three.

[Mafic]

Trying to put words in my mouth there. Poisons diluted the fantasy of Combat, imo, because swashbucklers DON'T poison people.

Vanessa Vancleef uses mind numbing poisons.

All Rogue specs should have poisons.

[Akka]

I really don't see how warlock with a dagger (shadowmagic sub) is actually a good lore for the rogue in any way.

[Shelly]

Vanessa Vancleef uses mind numbing poisons.

All Rogue specs should have poisons.

Pretty sure she'd be considered Subtlety.

Her father you have a better shot at saying is Outlaw.

[Kadenzza]

To be fair, she IS Outlaw specced as a class hall follower.

[Deleted]

To be fair, she IS Outlaw specced as a class hall follower.

She is using Perdition's blades which are daggers. Try this as an outlaw... :-)
http://www.wowhead.com/outfit=462/vanessa-vancleef

[Deleted]

Vanessa Vancleef uses mind numbing poisons.

All Rogue specs should have poisons.

No they should not.

It makes them only more similiar and does not add class fantasy at all.

Poisons don't fit the outlaw theme at all.

[ymirsson]

No they should not.

It makes them only more similiar and does not add class fantasy at all.

Poisons don't fit the outlaw theme at all.

They don't use poisons, because it is against the LAW!