Sunreavers and Jaina

[alt-ithist]

that's still choosing a side..... they helped moved a powerful weapon into an Alliance city, and then warded it....

She warded the alliance portals from being used by the horde. Wouldn’t that be one of the responsibilities of the Kirin Tor in having the faction portals in their city? How is that breaching neutrality. Otherwise assassins could just take a portal to opposite faction cities and have a field day.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She warded the alliance portals from being used by the horde. Wouldn’t that be one of the responsibilities of the Kirin Tor in having the faction portals in their city? How is that breaching neutrality. Otherwise assassins could just take a portal to opposite faction cities and have a field day.

She talks about "Her" wards. Her personal wards. She personally worked on securing the Bell in Teldrassil.

[alt-ithist]

Why are people still saying helping secure the bell in an Alliance city was neutral. If two nations are at war, you don't put nukes for safe keeping on one side if you are trying to prevent their use, you keep them locked up yourself, or you stay the fuck out of it. Helping one side secure them isn't neutrality.

Good intentions don't make a bad idea good.

It was neutral because she did it as an individual not as a representative of dalaran. Just like when she helped the taurens get back their city. She used her own private money and none of theramore resources. Had the horde got the bell first and aethas used the teleport network of dalaran to get it to orgrimmar. Even then dalaran could possibly had refuse to allow the network for that transport on account that Garrosh had already proven to be nuts. Protecting the integrity of the portal networks is dalarans duty so again that wasnt breaking the neutrality either.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It was neutral because she did it as an individual not as a representative of dalaran.

The blood elf who used the portal was an individual, not a representative of Dalaran, hell he wasn't even part of the Kirin'tor. So obviously the Horde didn't break neutrality.

Just like when she helped the taurens get back their city.

Breaking neutrality once before doesn't make doing it again no longer the same action. She invested her own wards and magic into securing the bell in Alliance hands, that's not being neutral, even if she had no clue what the fuck neutral meant and used it in every other sentence.

. She used her own private money and none of theramore resources

And she still made the Horde stronger for her actions, just like she was making the Alliance stronger wither her actions later. Neutrality doesn't mean you go behind the other faction's back to make one side stronger, and neutrality isn't a word you can use as a sheild when you get caught with your pants down.

Jaina's idea of neutrality =/= neutrality. She just liked to jump around both sides, and thought she could have her cake and eat it too.

Had the horde got the bell first and aethas used the teleport network of dalaran to get it to orgrimmar.

And yet the Alliance used the Dalaran network to get it to Teldrassil, how on earth can that possibly be twisted to being neutral?

Even then dalaran could possibly had refuse to allow the network for that transport on account that Garrosh had already proven to be nuts.

Which again would have only been neutral if they also didn't help the Alliance's efforts to obtain it. If they simply let the two factions fight over the bell, it would have been neutral, Jaina went out of her way to try to stop the Horde from stealing it.

Protecting the integrity of the portal networks is dalarans duty so again that wasnt breaking the neutrality either.

That's not how that works, she already spat in the face of what neutrality meant time and time again, and she did it again by helping the Alliance move the bell. Neutrality was already broken, unless it doesn't count if Alliance does it.

[alt-ithist]

The blood elf who used the portal was an individual, not a representative of Dalaran, hell he wasn't even part of the Kirin'tor. So obviously the Horde didn't break neutrality.



Breaking neutrality once before doesn't make doing it again no longer the same action. She invested her own wards and magic into securing the bell in Alliance hands, that's not being neutral, even if she had no clue what the fuck neutral meant and used it in every other sentence.



And she still made the Horde stronger for her actions, just like she was making the Alliance stronger wither her actions later. Neutrality doesn't mean you go behind the other faction's back to make one side stronger, and neutrality isn't a word you can use as a sheild when you get caught with your pants down.

Jaina's idea of neutrality =/= neutrality. She just liked to jump around both sides, and thought she could have her cake and eat it too.



And yet the Alliance used the Dalaran network to get it to Teldrassil, how on earth can that possibly be twisted to being neutral?



Which again would have only been neutral if they also didn't help the Alliance's efforts to obtain it. If they simply let the two factions fight over the bell, it would have been neutral, Jaina went out of her way to try to stop the Horde from stealing it.



That's not how that works, she already spat in the face of what neutrality meant time and time again, and she did it again by helping the Alliance move the bell. Neutrality was already broken, unless it doesn't count if Alliance does it.

In your first example. He violated Kirin Tor lore on the order of the warchief. So not acting independently. Aethas knew he was and did nothing about it, that brought in the sunreavers as a whole. The key difference is, they used alliance portal in dalaran when they were not alliance.

Second point. Securing the the wards from being interfered with isn’t breaking neutrality. Every Kirin Tor should’ve been reinforcing those wards if they suspected the horde might try to use them. It’s their job to make sure the opposite faction don’t abuse those wards.

3rd point. She isn’t neutral, dalaran is. She is alliance. Just like aethas is Horde he can help the horde as much as he want to as long as he doesn’t use dalaran resources to help the horde against alliance. Similar back in theramore, Jaina was neutral but the city was alliance. She could not help the horde with the resources of theramore but she could with her own coffer.

4th point Dalaran is neutral, she isn’t. Her helping find the bell wasn’t breaking that neutrality. Protecting the wards part of her job as a Kirin Tor.

5th point. The alliance used the portals dalaran gave to them to transport the bell. They didn’t use the horde portals to dump a mana bomb In Ogrimmar.

That said, the purge was stupid as fuck. Something like this happen, you aim for the military. Not the civilians. Taking aethas was the right call, letting varessa loose on shop keepers however was just stupid. I would say that varessa’s action make no sense then I think about real life. People are burning down mosque and killing Muslim shopkeepers here because of what a few assholes in power are doing.

Just wanted to give one more example of Warcraft neutrality. The Cenarian circle is neutral, Hammul one of its leaders is horde. He can go to war against the alliance but he can’t use Cenarian circle resources to do so. So take that into consideration when you reply.

[Mehrunes]

She warded the alliance portals from being used by the horde. Wouldn’t that be one of the responsibilities of the Kirin Tor in having the faction portals in their city? How is that breaching neutrality. Otherwise assassins could just take a portal to opposite faction cities and have a field day.

She didn't do squat about the portals. That's why the Horde actually could get into the city through them, why Jaina was surprised the Horde got into the city and was even more surprised about how they got in once she realized where they came from. She didn't even think about the possibility. Jaina was at the entrance of Darnassus trapping the soldiers from the main (though ultimately a diversion) Horde force trying to enter the city.

It was neutral because she did it as an individual not as a representative of dalaran.

She as an individual was the representative of Dalaran. She was its leader for god's sake.

Just like when she helped the taurens get back their city. She used her own private money and none of theramore resources.

The Shattering didn't say anything about where that money came from. Besides, given how Theramore has never been neutral, it's utterly meaningless to the discussion. At best it could be used as an example of Jaina being traitorous shit from the perspective of both sides, given how she aided the enemy of the Alliance during a faction war.

[alt-ithist]

She didn't do squat about the portals. That's why the Horde actually could get into the city through them, why Jaina was surprised the Horde got into the city and was even more surprised about how they got in once she realized where they came from. She didn't even think about the possibility. Jaina was at the entrance of Darnassus trapping the soldiers from the main (though ultimately a diversion) Horde force trying to enter the city.

- - - Updated - - -



She as an individual was the representative of Dalaran. She was its leader for god's sake.




The Shattering didn't say anything about where that money came from. Besides, given how Theramore has never been neutral, it's utterly meaningless to the discussion. At best it could be used as an example of Jaina being traitorous shit from the perspective of both sides, given how she aided the enemy of the Alliance during a faction war.

Too sleepy to remember each source.

But on first point. She did reinforce the wards, she said so doing her rant. The sunreavers just found ways to bypass her wards. Sunreavers are really good at that.

For the second point, see what I said about Hammul. Being a leader of dalaran doesn’t mean you can’t fight for the alliance just like being a leader in the CC doesn’t mean he can’t fight for the horde.

3rd point, she told Varian when he confronted her about it. It was in wolfheart I think. And also that was the point. Theramore wasn’t neutral so she couldn’t use its resources to help the horde but she was. The law of the land made her unable to use the cities resources to help who she wanted. But she could still help with her own private resource.

[Mehrunes]

Second point. Securing the the wards from being interfered with isn’t breaking neutrality. Every Kirin Tor should’ve been reinforcing those wards if they suspected the horde might try to use them. It’s their job to make sure the opposite faction don’t abuse those wards.

Trapping combatants of one faction in combat with the other is breaking neutrality, however. And that's what she actually did. There is no mention whatsoever of Jaina doing anything about Dalaran's portals.

3rd point. She isn’t neutral, dalaran is. She is alliance. Just like aethas is Horde he can help the horde as much as he want to as long as he doesn’t use dalaran resources to help the horde against alliance. Similar back in theramore, Jaina was neutral but the city was alliance. She could not help the horde with the resources of theramore but she could with her own coffer.

So Jaina was neutral when she was leading an Alliance city, but Alliance when she was leading a neutral city? Your comprehension of neutrality looks about as accurate and conveniently fluid as Jaina's.

[alt-ithist]

Trapping combatants of one faction in combat with the other is breaking neutrality, however. And that's what she actually did. There is no mention whatsoever of Jaina doing anything about Dalaran's portals.




So Jaina was neutral when she was leading an Alliance city, but Alliance when she was leading a neutral city? Your comprehension of neutrality looks about as accurate and conveniently fluid as Jaina's.

Trapping combatants using portal dalaran forbid them to use is Dalaran business. I really don’t get what’s so hard to understand. Lorewise I’m sure it’s not the first time first time the alliance/horde try to abuse those portals but it’s still dalaran a job to make sure they don’t.

Maybe you would like a story where everyone is one dimensional. Horde bad, alliance good blue/red. Personally I like these little nuances. That’s why I like Jaina as a character. Both her earlier days of wanting peace between the factions and working so hard to achieve it while still fully committed to the alliance. And the tragic version of her now, where every thing she believed in and fought for comes kicking her in the face as she realized how much it’s all her fault what has happened to her life. The transition in character is very believable if sad.

[Mehrunes]

Too sleepy to remember each source.

But on first point. She did reinforce the wards, she said so doing her rant. The sunreavers just found ways to bypass her wards. Sunreavers are really good at that.

And the word "wards" = proof of some kind of connection to the Dalaran portal system, how? Because Jaina in her rant also talked about Horde members trying to bypass her defenses or just sneaking into the city. Was there a Horde army in Dalaran the whole time and the Horde was trying to enter through there? How comes she did not notice it only until Fanlyr sneaked the player behind Darnassus' walls? How comes you didn't see it during the Horde quest?

Besides she didn't even say a word about any wards, let alone about wards related to the portals. She said she caught any Rogue trying to sneak into the city. Not exactly portal-related activity. Then she said she she snatched everyone trying to teleport through her traps. Not to the city, through traps. How do you attach traps into existing portals? I can't think of a single example of such portal tampering in Warcraft.

For the second point, see what I said about Hammul. Being a leader of dalaran doesn’t mean you can’t fight for the alliance just like being a leader in the CC doesn’t mean he can’t fight for the horde.

Cenarion Circle isn't a neutral state. Hamuul isn't it's leader either. Being a leader of a neutral state means exactly that you can't fight for any side because that's what state neutrality means.

3rd point, she told Varian when he confronted her about it. It was in wolfheart I think. And also that was the point. Theramore wasn’t neutral so she couldn’t use its resources to help the horde but she was. The law of the land made her unable to use the cities resources to help who she wanted. But she could still help with her own private resource.

Varian learned of that only in War Crimes during Jaina's testimony. And you're still pulling the idea she used her own money out of thin air. The Shattering only called that gold untraceable. If Jaina using that money was no problem as you paint it to be, how comes it needed to be untraceable?

Trapping combatants using portal dalaran forbid them to use is Dalaran business. I really don’t get what’s so hard to understand. Lorewise I’m sure it’s not the first time first time the alliance/horde try to abuse those portals but it’s still dalaran a job to make sure they don’t.

There was still no mention of any portals whatsoever there.

Maybe you would like a story where everyone is one dimensional. Horde bad, alliance good blue/red. Personally I like these little nuances. That’s why I like Jaina as a character. Both her earlier days of wanting peace between the factions and working so hard to achieve it while still fully committed to the alliance. And the tragic version of her now, where every thing she believed in and fought for comes kicking her in the face as she realized how much it’s all her fault what has happened to her life. The transition in character is very believable if sad.

How does this projection drivel address anything I actually said? Where have I indicated anything about wanting a one dimensional story? Do enlighten me.

[baskev]

No. The quest asks "Attacked?" There's a question mark. In the text itself, Admiral Taylor is asking the question. He doesn't know what happened. "Details are hazy - some sort of stealth attack on the city?"

attack is attack...stealth or not..

[Aquamonkey]

attack is attack...stealth or not..

It wasn't an attack. Taylor thought it might be because he didn't know what was going on and was going on bad info.

[baskev]

Why are people still saying helping secure the bell in an Alliance city was neutral. If two nations are at war, you don't put nukes for safe keeping on one side if you are trying to prevent their use, you keep them locked up yourself, or you stay the fuck out of it. Helping one side secure them isn't neutrality.

Good intentions don't make a bad idea good.

It was not in a neutral city...did not say that.
I said it was moved out of harms way. It was in a area where alliance, hord, sha, mogu, killik , pandaran where fighting...leaving it there was a good option you think...a bell that makes the mogu's emperors troops strong, and fear etc in his enemy's troops...yeah.

- - - Updated - - -

Horde players will never ever admit they are the evil force. Never. Even after garrosh who they happyly followed till they find out they're hoing to lose and then switched sides.
You can't really reason here.

I mean personally I really like the idea of the horde being just evil and unmorally, but what is really frustrating is that some horde players seem to defend every action whith some kind of whataboutism

The Horde allways have been evil, from Wc1 and beyond. The only time they were not totally crazy genocidial maniacs was when Thrall was leading them and that time has long gone.

Sylvanas basically uses chemical and biological weapons on innocent people.
An Orc under Garrosh nuked a School of Druids, a School of a neutral faction.
Garrosh nuked a whole town.
Sylvanas is again going to nuke a whole town in BfA presumeably killing thousands of innocents.

The Horde IS evil beyond comprehension. They are composed of war mongering mongolians, heart and soulless undeads, an atztec like tribe that does blood sacrifices to the gods an some elves that are for some reason lost any sense of logic an reasoning.


I mean froma story telling perspective that is not bad, that makes the whole faction great, but they are not the good ones. The sole purpose we even have war in Warcraft is because of the Horde, all along.

The Horde is an aggressive, expansive force of war mongers and have allways been. They have continueingly betrayed everyone on every occassion and the Dalaran betrayal was only one of the many situations.

Nah...the hord is not evil. Just a different type or races.

My post is more about the jaina hate.....Sylvanna's is on the same level ( even worse if you ask me) and she gets no hate from the hord players. Atleast alliance players have the balls to say that jaina is f*ck*d up as hell.

And my post ( might not have gotten all the facts right , but i said that from the start :P) was more to shed light on the fact that it was a reaction from her the sunreavers could have guessed that would happen. And it was overkill but not unjust.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It was not in a neutral city...did not say that.
I said it was moved out of harms way. It was in a area where alliance, hord, sha, mogu, killik , pandaran where fighting...leaving it there was a good option you think...a bell that makes the mogu's emperors troops strong, and fear etc in his enemy's troops...yeah.

Still helping secure it in an Alliance city, that's not neutrality.

[baskev]

It's not a betrayal because she broke trust first. If we tell each other a secret on the condition that neither of us tells anyone else, then is it a betrayal if I tell people your secret AFTER you tell people mine? Neutrality works the same way. Since Theramore acted against the Horde first by helping the Alliance invade Horde lands, the Horde had no reason to uphold their end of the bargain of not attacking Theramore thus it's not a betrayal, it's a reprisal.

Where are talking about the divine bell right??? or should we get mehrunes to get a whole history of the hord??? Because if we talk like you the hord is wrong. Because they invaded azoroth first in the rts warcraft games.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would Jaina, leader of the Kirin Tor who were not part of the Alliance at that point, know about secret peace talks between the blood elves and the Alliance?

No, it can enhance your own troops like Garrosh did with it. The Divine Bell had powers from each of the Sha, not just the Sha of fear.

Again...a leader of a organization of very powerful magic users. Who is friends to the aspect dragons you would think she heard some whispers. But i stand corrected if she does not know it.

Yeah all the troops in darnassus....who would loose the effect before they would be in pandaria...

But let me ask you this: In a country where Alliance, Hord, Mogu, Pandaran, Killik, Sha's, monkey and fish people are at war..leaving a weapon like that there is a smart idea why???

- - - Updated - - -

It wasn't an attack. Taylor thought it might be because he didn't know what was going on and was going on bad info.

Stealing a WMD from a save place during a war is not a attack....where they lending it???

Sorry about going on about this. But you guys all go after each word taking out of context and not reading the first part of my first post where i said i stand corrected if i remember wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Still helping secure it in an Alliance city, that's not neutrality.

Where else should she put it...in theramore??!?!?!
.....
Dalaran where no one could steal it.....?

She did not put it in stormwind, iron forge or erodar...all who are way less friendly to the hord. And before you go after this: Nope the night elfs are also not fun of the hord. But both their leaders are more relax about crazy stuff then other leaders.
Other leaders lost land, family and much more to the hord....

[Aquamonkey]

Stealing a WMD from a save place during a war is not a attack....where they lending it???

Sorry about going on about this. But you guys all go after each word taking out of context and not reading the first part of my first post where i said i stand corrected if i remember wrong.

It's the a difference between burglary and robbery. The Horde committed burglary, it wasn't an attack. You cited a quest that speculated an attack (with question mark indicating uncertainty), which turned out to be wrong.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Where else should she put it...in theramore??!?!?!
.....
Dalaran where no one could steal it.....?

She did not put it in stormwind, iron forge or erodar...all who are way less friendly to the hord. And before you go after this: Nope the night elfs are also not fun of the hord. But both their leaders are more relax about crazy stuff then other leaders.
Other leaders lost land, family and much more to the hord....

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about at this point, Darnassus was as much an Alliance city as Stormwind or Ironforge.

She should have pissed off and not interacted if she truly wanted to be neutral, by helping secure the bell that was in an Alliance city, she already broke the neutrality she later accused the sunreavers of doing.

[sam86]

Going real hard on that relativism, aren't we?

So, is the Alliance except to sit and die so the Horde can walk all over them with the Divine Bell? Jaina should just sit and let the Horde use the city resources to further their aggression against the Alliance or else she's being unfair to them? Right.

Since it is alliance who get it first, the accurate to say is to expect horde to sit and die while alliance go use Divine Bell, u seriously expect horde, who has 4 of their 6 main races joined horde because alliance betrayed and/or tried to wipe them out of existence, believe alliance decided to not wipe them again for the 5th time? Even if Anduin back then was pro peace, to expect alliance - who still until now don't consider any of their genocide actions against horde wrong, unlike horde who don't consider their act against Draenei was good (even if they were tricked because - surprise - the alliance race 'forgot' to tell them that an immortal army of demons that wiped out life from any planet they lived upon is hunting them down)
Garrosh was racist, but in term of leaving the bell with alliance, that would been stupidity and horde shouldn't believe that alliance wouldn't use it, or anyone with a brain for that matter

[baskev]

It's the a difference between burglary and robbery. The Horde committed burglary, it wasn't an attack. You cited a quest that speculated an attack (with question mark indicating uncertainty), which turned out to be wrong.

...A WMD stealing during a war is a attack...
If russia steals a nuke from america...will it not be called a attack on America sovereignty?

[dirk123]

Aethas should either disband the Sunreavers or become a better leader. 3 Sunreaver betrayels thus far.
1. Thalen Songweaver, a sunreaver, during Theramore bombing
2. Fanlyr Silverthorn, a sunreaver, during the Divine Bell stuff
3. Aethas says in the 7.2 Mage Campaign that a Sunreaver (whom was working for the Legion) sabotaged Dalaran's defences.

Aethas is the most incompetent leader ever.