I was going to add this, but this is actually why I vote for the shit show that is a 1.0 simulation, purely because it is more accurate...if not more...unpleasant.
4 seconds lmao. I used to fucking die to the dot from Mythic Goroth all the time if I didn't have CDs and that's like 12 seconds. AOE healing and HPS padding is a fucking scourge upon this land!
Bottleneck is there in the start, but most of those people will stop at some point.
You want to get ahead. You keep going, no more bottleneck. That's how that's worked in the past, everytime.
4 days has seemed to be quite common speed leveling time, granted that is on a server that didn't just open up.
Type in google and search vanilla wow speed leveling, and take your pick. Guides are there.
Routes and races for you to choose. Execute.
As we've witnessed A LOT of people are going to play for the vanilla experience, they want adventure and discovery, they are not there to speed level through.
Leveling is what they do on their own pace. Those players are the easiest one to bypass.
Figure out how to bypass the bottle of other speedrunners, play at night, don't start at prime time, play during work/school hours, whatever to lessen the effect.
Okay the 4-5 days might be too tight if you're really in the starting zone bottleneck on the first day, but a week max two once you get past most people.
When TBC launched me and a mate pushed leveling first 48 hours, we were the only god damn players hitting Terokkar Forest, same shit WotLK we hit the same bottleneck as others in Borean Tundra, but guess what after training through that shit there was like 4 people questing in Dragonblight once we got there at 4 in the morning after launch. That's how you deal with a bottleneck. Granted vanilla is tougher cause nothing is optimized and as you said respawn rates are shit. Either try your luck and hope you get first tags, or start later than others and go past when they go to bed.
For crafted gear, that's why there's professions, right?
It's not that complicated.. You level professions as you play, like you've done over a decade now.
If you're bottlenecked somewhere cause of mobs, use the time to level professions, go gather shit.
Or go start up the alt. Multitask. There's always something to be done. It's how you choose to spend your time.
If your aim is to get to raiding as fast as possible, you highly likely are going in with a guild already when it launches.
Or make sure you do, organize and make progression through leveling effective. You don't all need to be blacksmiths.
Run premade with guild through dungeons, if they have the same goal, they are as motivated and dungeons will be faster, cause people know what to do, what to cc. You can discord pulls, so you don't spend 15 minutes on assigning cc every pack.
That's the min-maxing people from current game bring to the table of classic. It's up to people if they choose not to, but no changes means, no changes to the game, not the players, they'll do as they wish. If the api for example is the original one, well addons at that point will be playing the game for players to some extent, cause it was possible, addon devs didn't use it's full potential, the knowledge they have now about the lua for example. And we didn't have addon clients that auto update every addon centralized every day either, when you can do that without a press of a button and nothing the game client can do about such thing, addons are more widely used than in vanilla. And if you can minimize or take out human errors from like raiding with addons that the old api allowed, it just wasn't used to that extent, that's one aspect that makes shit faster.
Many people had alts in vanilla.
I don't see the problem. Shit takes time sure, but if you're going at this seriously you need to have the time.
I'm sitting here 7 days a week playing Legion currently, 12-16 hours every day.
What do you think i'm going to do when Classic is here, sit here playing that shit 12-16 hours a day, cause that's what i do.
It's not like the game is some magical wall that can't be beaten by putting in the time.
Cause that's all vanilla is, time and determination.
You don't quit until the job is done. You're talking to a person who spent 6 years and 3 months, every single week doing Black Temple to get his Warglaives. Every single reset, not a week missed. Why, cause i wanted those 2 items sitting in my inventory, way way way past their actual time of usefulness.
Vanilla wow is no where near the grindiest game ever.
I've spend thousands of hours on games much worse in the grind aspect than wow a lot of times for not even a reward or reward that has been lost at the end, cause the game allowed people to steal shit directly from players or whatever.
You work a week, a month for shit, go to bed, someone comes and steals your work, in some cases you don't even know who it was won't ever find out.
Grats you just spent a month to accomplish absolutely nothing.
I'm not actually here saying or even agreeing that shit needs to be tuned higher.
Make vanilla exactly as it was. That's my opinion, do not touch anything.
I'm just saying that if people think this shit will take forever to have first kills and completed content, they are in for a wild ride of surprises.
All you need is 40 if not even less motivated people to push through it, highly likely you'll need that 40 for Naxx, but below that even the 40 might not be needed. Key is having motivated people. And supposedly we are now in millions and millions of people joining for this, which i also doubt, but i guarantee there's at least 1x 40 people among those joining.
Last edited by Redecle; 2017-11-24 at 04:41 AM.
The people shitting on Retail difficulty must have played LFR only. It's mind-boggling how they think Vanilla raids were harder than Retail. A single Retail mythic boss has more mechanics than whole vanilla raids combined. A single personal mistake or below-par DPS will wipe the raid. In vanilla, half the raid could go AFK and still down the boss.
They think that retail content giving lots of epics somehow means raids are easier. Sure, let's see your toon decked out in World Quest epics try to tackle Mythic Mistress in one go.
When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
- Keeper Annals
Indeed, the problem with Classic's singular difficulty will be that organised, hardcore guilds will grow bored very quickly with the raiding content as it was tuned for an unruly mob of people with wildly varying effort and skill levels.
Let's face it, we're better players, we have better mod creators and better communication tools than we did 13 years ago, any guild that puts in even a little effort will tear through all the raiding content in no time.
This is why we need all four difficulty modes from live all the way from LFR to Mythic.
This will both smooth out the massive, purely ilvl derived difficulty spikes and provide the most skilled players with a goal to strive toward. There are literally no downsides to this as you can ignore any difficulty modes you have no interest in.
Just because vanilla was flawed, it doesn't mean we have to ignore all the lessons we've learned throughout the years to the detriment of the gameplay. People need to stop seeing this as a vanilla clone because it isn't and never can be and start seeing it as a vanilla remake.
Garrosh did nothing wrong.
#MakeTheHordeGreatAgain
Lots of people hate the absurdity of the boss becoming vastly stronger or weaker based on hitting a button.
It's far more immersive for the boss to be the boss. That's it. No extra versions of him.
As you allude to, vanilla already has difficulty levels built in, the non-lazy way. If you want a boss of a different difficulty you _make a whole new boss_. or even instance. Most/all of molten core is normal mode raiding. Blackwing Lair has some heroic and normal mode bosses. Ahn'qiraj has mostly all heroic bosses with one mythic (C'thun). Naxxramas has a few heroic mode bosses, some halfway between heroic/mythic and some truly difficult encounters (Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad). I mean at the time by that, nowadays I think the extra knowledge of the game about how to increase your character's dps will make those encounters a peg or three easier.
The problem with classic is that it was tuned around people not really knowing anything. You can see on private servers when people tryhard world buff and min-max everything DPS is insanely higher than in 2006.
Last edited by Nitros14; 2017-11-24 at 04:19 AM.
Considering i was full MC in less than a month back when retail was 1.12, I'm calling bullshit.
After 14 years of fine tuned leveling guides, dungeon mechanic extrapolation and months and months and months of lead up to the actual release to plan for the master rush? yeah, I'm doubting Naxx will remain relevant longer than 3 months unless it's gated.
There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.
another way of looking at your post would be 'here is a list of things blizzard needs to take care of to make sure retail and other later-version former players don't quit!!'
I personally cannot imagine A/B letting paying customers walk out the door because they won't nerf a video game.
I know I sound jaded with regard to blizz and a/b. All I know is that the list of classic aspects you posted is just what todayy's blizzard core values and accessibility dogma try to get away from. There is no way Activision-blizz puts out a game that pushes players away due to 'inaccessibility.' Does not compute.
Last edited by Deficineiron; 2017-11-24 at 06:00 AM.
Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.
the problem that is going to be run into is the modern activision-blizzard design philosphy that 'all players should be able to see all of the content.' I cannot imagine today's blizzard putting out naxx v1 and not making sure every single least common denominator player can see it.
So I expect multiple raid difficulties per raid.
Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.
Redistributing players is the most retarded decision from business' standpoint.
They'll try to bring in new players to add to their current number of MAUs and not simply move users from one game to another, because it'd mean an increase in spending w/o profit gains.
I think they will make classic tuned roughly like 3.x in overall gameplay. highest pop was late bc/early wotlk, and it is certainly a much more accessible game by 3.0 than pre-2.3. this is targeted mainly at former players hwo played bc and/or wotlk. classic server folks are a much smaller group, and actual p/s players are likely only a few hundred k max.
I am certainly curious to see how this works out. I just look at public comments (check out pardo's 2014 MIT lecture on blizz core values) over time and classic wow is the antithesis of what today's blizzard wants to be. classic isn't getting out the door without 'help' from blizzard on the way.
at this point on the publicity side, it is all about expectation management with the classic community. say soothing things, use vague or trick language (classic game experience, does it'feel classic,' etc.), pretend to listen to community input on controversial topics because you know they will be arguments which is an excuse to say' yes we are, lots of people want it' etc.
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Unfortunately, i cannot imagine ACTIVISION-Blizzard not doing it.
hundreds of millions in potential revenue depend on blizz targeting this at the biggest possible market (as many former players as possible, essentially) and they are going to go for a much easier general tuning/pacing than 1.x/anything, or even 2.4.3.
have you noticed orchestrated use of highly subjective and weird phrases like 'does this 'feel classic'' or the 'classic game experience' (not the game itself) ? they know they need to snowball the classic community for as long as possible. NO ONE talks like that unless they are avoiding saying something else.
I also expect raid difficulties. I cannot imagine a/b putting this out without every player having the ability to kill KT without too much time/skill.
I would like to see Names at blizz pinned down with explicit questions like
how many hits will an outdoor mob need to kill a clothie at level?
how long should the average dungeon run be? we know some dungeons of course were 2 hours minimum or much worse BRD hello....I don't believe they will tune the dungeons so hard as to let this be true this time around.
what should expected /played to 60 be?
will graveyards and flight masters be added?
will quest lines be restructed into a more coherent narrative (a polite euphemism for will they screw with the classic quests)? Will there be phasing and/or zone-wide linear questing?
these are just a few. I don't believe they intend to leave any of the above aspects as they were in classic.
as far as the tuning/pacing issue, I think classic community should just accept that blizz needs to tune this down to expand potential market, and begin lobbying for 'hardcore' classic servers as a subset, essentially the pristine idea from last year, just classic tuned properly and a single raid /instance difficulty. Blizz could call them something besides 'authentic' as that is not good advertising, maybe 'hardcore.' could even market it as a much harder option.
Last edited by Deficineiron; 2017-11-24 at 06:31 AM.
Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.
TBF, Vanilla /played to 60 wasn't that long, people used to spend months levelling because they didn't know shit and were wasting hours upon hours on doing stuff that didn't reward XP. If you're serious about it and you had prev MMORPG experience, it normally took 10-14 days w/o nolifing to cap your char. It took twice as less if you decided to nolife quite seriously.
I don't think that they'll add difficulties though, there's no real need to do so because difficulty of Vanilla raiding came from organising needed number of people and not from encounter difficulty, but ofc there's few oddballs here and there. You can't make getting 40ppl together easier, unless you add LFR which they won't, it's already confirmed they won't be adding queue systems.
There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.
But what about "Vanilla is Vanilla"? It would lose its significance as Vanilla if ANYTHING is changed.
Suddenly, when you want something, you ask for it, but we can't.
When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
- Keeper Annals
So you say that best players got better, so what? The majority is still a cesspool of inadequacy.
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And you're wrong. Slippery slope is one of your Vanillaers arguments.
So you are either a hypocrite, or you think you do, but you don't.
Classic servers should be exactly how the game actually was back then. No more, no less. The only changes that should be made are bug fixes. Cases where the game was not working as intended. Though even then, they should leave in any bugs that felt iconic to the time. Like how you could carefully jump into Old Hyjal.