So Alleria will be at war against Silvermoon and her sister ?

[Aquamonkey]

And how the hell could they do that? There was almost no humans left. They were even dead or undead. How could any of those that disliked Garithos do anything about it? Could the King do it? No, he was dead. Could Prince Arthas do it? No, he was the reason there wasn't any humans left!

Garithos is one man. Replace him with another, less racist commander. Or hell, put Kael in command. He's a sovereign head of state.

That the humans of Stormwind, dwarves of Ironforge does not count isn't true at all. They helped refugees from Lordaeron at Southshore, and both SW and IF refused to send more forces to aid Garithos in the plaguelands,

Ironforge did send forces to Garithos...

because they tought he was insane to even suggest going in there. So there was suspicion that something wasn't quite right(pun). You can't just ignore that side of the story. And since they weren't there as you propose, how could anyone stand up to Garithos at all?

Source?

YES, we know! Everyone who played WC3 knows. But from the story perspective, how could Stormwind know at all what he was up to? How could anyone know? Yes the players know, but that wasn't the point.

Dalaran, Ironforge, Wildhammer, and Lordaeron forces knew.

Stormwind wasn't there, that's why I said they don't count. What their forces would or would not have done is pure speculation and moot.

The humans of Stormwind blamed Garithos for making the Blood Elves going Horde, because of those actions. It's easy to understand from the characters standpoint, all that happened in Lordaeron with the Blood Elves was Garithos fault.

1. Wowwiki
2. "citation needed"

[Doffen]

Garithos is one man. Replace him with another, less racist commander. Or hell, put Kael in command. He's a sovereign head of state.


Ironforge did send forces to Garithos...


Source?


Dalaran, Ironforge, Wildhammer, and Lordaeron forces knew.




1. Wowwiki
2. "citation needed"

1. There wasn't anyone else.
2. yes, IF did send forces. But not in the plaguelands. "When Garithos sent his troops in to the Plaguelands, Stormwind and Ironforge refused to send their troops into the Plaguelands, realizing that such act would send their soldiers to their deaths and offered shelter for the Lordaeron refugees instead. "
3. People of the Alliance are not honoring the troops of the New Alliance at all, probably because of their corrupt and racist leadership that sent their troops to their deaths and the horrors they have inflicted on the Blood elves in the Dungeons of Dalaran that caused them to leave the Alliance.

Stormwind wasn't there, that's why I said they don't count. What their forces would or would not have done is pure speculation and moot.

Source?
Citation needed.

So, wowpedia, wowwiki doesnt count then? I asked about the 3. here if its canon or not, but didnt get any answer earlier.

[Aquamonkey]

1. There wasn't anyone else.

Garithos was the highest ranking member remaining. That doesn't mean he's the only person alive in Lordaeron.

2. yes, IF did send forces. But not in the plaguelands. "When Garithos sent his troops in to the Plaguelands, Stormwind and Ironforge refused to send their troops into the Plaguelands, realizing that such act would send their soldiers to their deaths and offered shelter for the Lordaeron refugees instead.

3. People of the Alliance are not honoring the troops of the New Alliance at all, probably because of their corrupt and racist leadership that sent their troops to their deaths and the horrors they have inflicted on the Blood elves in the Dungeons of Dalaran that caused them to leave the Alliance.

No source. It's even in a Speculation section: "This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore."

"New Alliance" is not a canon name (RPG is not canon). It's only canonically referred to as "Alliance".

Source?
Citation needed.

There is no indication that Stormwind sent any aid to Garithos.

So, wowpedia, wowwiki doesnt count then? I asked about the 3. here if its canon or not, but didnt get any answer earlier.

Not in and of themselves. Wikis are not primary sources and are subject to errors and misinformation (deliberate or accidental). That's what citations are for.

[Doffen]

Garithos was the highest ranking member remaining. That doesn't mean he's the only person alive in Lordaeron.

Well you know he was the most qualified of all there to be the one to actually manage to save some lives, but he was an asshole and that stopped him in the end.

No source. It's even in a Speculation section: "This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore."

Well it is coming from something, its rather spesific. Its as lorefeels as anything else when it comes to lore about the "New Alliance". You have almost only the game to take from. I have searched and everything, there isn't much more than whats in the game and those pages.

"New Alliance" is not a canon name (RPG is not canon). It's only canonically referred to as "Alliance".

Didn't know that the New Alliance wasn't canon. Where do you get the info from what happened there then?

There is no indication that Stormwind sent any aid to Garithos.

Indication is not the same as source. And no, from my sources(:P) they refused, and rather helped the refugees of Lordaeron.

Not in and of themselves. Wikis are not primary sources and are subject to errors and misinformation (deliberate or accidental). That's what citations are for.

Learn something new everyday. So, where do you get your citations?
[/QUOTE]

[Fayenoor]

Sylvanas is the best written Windrunner sister. Her mantra was always Forsaken first, the Horde second. I think Vol'jin wanted her to be more than that and that's why he named her as the Warchief. She has the potential to be better than the last few Warchiefs of the Horde especially now that Arthas is dead.

Yes. This.

And that's why the BFA cinematic is so important. Her "For the Horde" rousing Baine and Saurfang out of despondency is the moment when she will start believing that she is more than the leader of the Forsaken.

[Doffen]

Yes. This.

And that's why the BFA cinematic is so important. Her "For the Horde" rousing Baine and Saurfang out of despondency is the moment when she will start believing that she is more than the leader of the Forsaken.

She was awesome in the cinematic. And my absolute favorite character in WoW.

Undead High Elf please.

[Aquamonkey]

Well you know he was the most qualified of all there to be the one to actually manage to save some lives, but he was an asshole and that stopped him in the end.

He got the position and support by being the highest ranking. Drop his ass and go to the next highest ranked person.

Well it is coming from something, its rather spesific. Its as lorefeels as anything else when it comes to lore about the "New Alliance". You have almost only the game to take from. I have searched and everything, there isn't much more than whats in the game and those pages.

No source, it's not valid. There was probably stuff in the RPG, but that's not canon anymore. Stormwind made no appearance with the "New Alliance".

Didn't know that the New Alliance wasn't canon. Where do you get the info from what happened there then?

The name is not canon. It's only referred to as Alliance. The name "New Alliance" implies that this is different from the Alliance, but again, not canon.

Indication is not the same as source. And no, from my sources(:P) they refused, and rather helped the refugees of Lordaeron.

If it didn't happen in canon, then it's fanon. Stormwind made no appearance during that time.

Learn something new everyday. So, where do you get your citations?

Primary sources. Everything published by Blizzard except the tabletop RPG, mods, TCG card descriptions, and Heroes of the Storm is canon. Games, books, short stories, comics, Blizzard's official website, Blizzard's official video shorts, Blizzard developers.

[Magnagarde]

Seems the Horde had more integrity than the Alliance. When Gul'dan betrayed the Horde, Doomhammer sent half his army to hunt him down. He forfeit the war to preserve their honor.

“Pursue the traitors and destroy them to the last orc, leaving their bodies to sink into the water’s depths.”
“But—this city!” Rend protested. “The war!”
“Our people’s honor is at stake!” Doomhammer bellowed, raising his hammer to attack position and growling at the other chieftain, silently daring him to defy the orders. “We must not allow them to go unpunished!” He glared at the Blackhands. “Consider this a chance to regain your honor.”
[...]
He had been so close! Another day at most and the city would have been his! Now that chance was gone. His odds of winning this war were slim at best. But honor had to come first.
[...]
[Doomhammer] would fight the corruption, the blood lust, the savagery at every turn, using every weapon at his command. Winning the war did not matter.
--Tides of Darkness

Because he couldn't do anything else other than going after Gul'dan as Gul'dan's actions completely impaired his entire war effort.

"He had more integrity because he didn't do something he couldn't do, but tried to do something he eventually could do."



The humans had a traitor of their own, called Medivh, whom they've dealt with themselves.

[Doffen]

He got the position and support by being the highest ranking. Drop his ass and go to the next highest ranked person.

But there was none. But from the start you failed to read what I wrote(you tought I mean Kael'thas the first time) They didn't like his methods, but there was no chance they would survive at all without him. So why should they get a new leader? Or rather, how could they get a new leader? There was no support like you said yourself, any uproar to drop his ass would be seen as treason, especially if the dwarves tried to come up with something. According to the game the only rest of Lordaerons people were the army of Garithos, rest fled, or was dead or undead.

All in all, my point was(2 pages ago) that Ironforge etc sent their forces up, but they didn't know what Garithos was up to with the Elves, or the army for that sake.

If it didn't happen in canon, then it's fanon. Stormwind made no appearance during that time.

You have read that wrong two times now. No, they refused to help out and instead massed some troops to safekeep Lordaeron Refugees in Soutshore. So they didn't appear in the game.
"It is known that Stormwind and Ironforge have sent troops to the front to repel the Scourge as we can see in Chillwind Camp and Southshore."
How is this known? They must have taken it from somewhere. Anyways, fine, its fanon. Not gonna use more time on that.

Primary sources. Everything published by Blizzard except the tabletop RPG, mods, TCG card descriptions, and Heroes of the Storm is canon. Games, books, short stories, comics, Blizzard's official website, Blizzard's official video shorts, Blizzard developers.

Okay, I'll digg into some more.

Just to ask straight up, you got any info other than in the game that will enlighten me about this whole "New Alliance" thing? As far as I can see there isn't much outside the wiki-pages and the actual game.

[Aquamonkey]

But there was none.

Garithos was a Grand Marshal. He had an army. A commander in an army has subordinates. Unless Garithos was an army of one, there was someone next in the chain of command after him.

But from the start you failed to read what I wrote(you tought I mean Kael'thas the first time) They didn't like his methods, but there was no chance they would survive at all without him. So why should they get a new leader? Or rather, how could they get a new leader? There was no support like you said yourself, any uproar to drop his ass would be seen as treason, especially if the dwarves tried to come up with something. According to the game the only rest of Lordaerons people were the army of Garithos, rest fled, or was dead or undead.

That's the point. Garithos had the support from the forces of Dalaran, Ironforge, Wildhammer, and Lordaeron despite his racist policies. They saw it first hand and still stood by him.

Also, they didn't survive even with him. Garithos got them all mind-controlled by the dreadlords. The only people who might have survived were those that deserted.

All in all, my point was(2 pages ago) that Ironforge etc sent their forces up, but they didn't know what Garithos was up to with the Elves, or the army for that sake.

Yes, and that's fine. They didn't know at the time they sent forces. Not at fault. However, those dwarves found out once they got there. They saw it first hand and still supported Garithos. At fault.

You have read that wrong two times now. No, they refused to help out and instead massed some troops to safekeep Lordaeron Refugees in Soutshore. So they didn't appear in the game.
"It is known that Stormwind and Ironforge have sent troops to the front to repel the Scourge as we can see in Chillwind Camp and Southshore."
How is this known? They must have taken it from somewhere. Anyways, fine, its fanon. Not gonna use more time on that.

That section is poorly written. Aside from it being tagged speculation and non-canon, as you quote, it says "it is known" and "we can see" they had troops there... Next sentence says "However, if those soldiers were there"... So it's not known that those troops were there.

Just to ask straight up, you got any info other than in the game that will enlighten me about this whole "New Alliance" thing? As far as I can see there isn't much outside the wiki-pages and the actual game.

"New Alliance" is only mentioned by that name in the non-canon RPG. Everywhere else, it is just referred to as "Alliance". This is in WC3, the TBC Townhall website, the Ultimate Visual Guide, and Annual 2015.

[Highelf]

Current Horde is nothing like the old one. Majority of her people joined the horde, her sister joined the horde. Why? because Alliance were dicks to them. Same principle as Nightborne.

Alliance never learn.

All allied alliance allied races (dwarfs were already there since Cata you just weren't able to play them) make no sense to join the alliance.

LF Draenei. after millennia fighting with BL there is no logical and racial explanation to join any faction.
Void elves. The only reason why void elves are in the game is because of crybabies for high elves.

There is no logical reason to join the alliance. They are fascists

Current horde is nothing like the old one? really?

Sylvanas is constantly attacking and plaguing innocent people. The orcs literally just run around and destroy and burn things. Theramore Isle(I don't care if it was Garrosh, he had plenty of support from both orcs and BE) Ashenvale is constantly under attack and it's beauty being destroyed with no regard to anythin else but their own selfish desires. you're right they're nothing like the old one.

Oh and let's not forget, the alternate timeline where they refuse the blood of mannaroth but still follow a very similar blood thirsty oaf. Honestly the orcs are extremely weak willed and easily manipulated.

OOO boo hoo some one was mean to me.

[Khirok]

Man, you guys are really upset about Alleria. It's kinda funny seeing the people saying she would be a blood elf hero getting so butthurt about her changing sides.

[Kiri]

Garithos was a Grand Marshal. He had an army. A commander in an army has subordinates. Unless Garithos was an army of one, there was someone next in the chain of command after him.
That's the point. Garithos had the support from the forces of Dalaran, Ironforge, Wildhammer, and Lordaeron despite his racist policies. They saw it first hand and still stood by him.
Also, they didn't survive even with him. Garithos got them all mind-controlled by the dreadlords. The only people who might have survived were those that deserted.
Yes, and that's fine. They didn't know at the time they sent forces. Not at fault. However, those dwarves found out once they got there. They saw it first hand and still supported Garithos. At fault.
That section is poorly written. Aside from it being tagged speculation and non-canon, as you quote, it says "it is known" and "we can see" they had troops there... Next sentence says "However, if those soldiers were there"... So it's not known that those troops were there.
"New Alliance" is only mentioned by that name in the non-canon RPG. Everywhere else, it is just referred to as "Alliance". This is in WC3, the TBC Townhall website, the Ultimate Visual Guide, and Annual 2015.

I think the 'they should just have replaced him' argument goes for every bad or evil commander in the history of both WoW and RL. It would be the best course of action, but you have to remember that soldiers are soldiers. They are trained from the ground up to follow orders. Mutineering against a leader, especially when facing dire odds not induced by that leader is pretty rare. Remember that even the dwarves that had been sent to the plague lands had the options of either staying with Garithos' army, assassinate the commander of a force that was not theirs (without being sure that they would not be executed for it), or leave the army and try to get out of an active war zone with their smaller contingent. When facing an enemy like the scourge, i.e. the living dead that will raise every man you lose, potentially splitting your army in two is a hard choice to make.
The right one, yes, but I would not fault those that were just trying to survive. 'At least it is not me getting the abuse' is a terrible excuse, but humans are humans.
Comparing a commander dealing with a treacherous underling (Doomhammer) to soldiers not betraying their commander is kind of weird.

Sylvanas is the best written Windrunner sister. Her mantra was always Forsaken first, the Horde second. I think Vol'jin wanted her to be more than that and that's why he named her as the Warchief. She has the potential to be better than the last few Warchiefs of the Horde especially now that Arthas is dead.

Alleria on the other hand... She already forgot where she came from, why Kael'thas made a pact with Lady Vashj and Illidan, why the High Elves are called the Blood Elves, why the Blood Elves left the Alliance in the first place.

And both the Alliance and the Horde are nothing but pacts made for survival and the Blood Elves couldn't have survived as part of the Alliance.

Alleria did not forget most of those things - she never experienced them to begin with. The literal last thing she knew about the situation in Azeroth was fighting side by side with humans against the orcish aggression. Now she is thrust into a situation where her people are fighting side by side with Orcs and Undead against the human kingdoms, both races that served the Legion which she had fought for the greatest part of her life. That is a tough pill to swallow. And yet, currently she has not declared for either side at all and is willing to talk it out with Sylvanas and Vereesa. Until we know how that meeting went, we really can't judge her one way or another.
Though, given that Sylvanas was obsessed with killing her sister while they were on good terms, I can't see that meeting going well now that she is cross with Vereesa.

[Doffen]

Garithos was a Grand Marshal. He had an army. A commander in an army has subordinates. Unless Garithos was an army of one, there was someone next in the chain of command after him.


That's the point. Garithos had the support from the forces of Dalaran, Ironforge, Wildhammer, and Lordaeron despite his racist policies. They saw it first hand and still stood by him.

Also, they didn't survive even with him. Garithos got them all mind-controlled by the dreadlords. The only people who might have survived were those that deserted.


Yes, and that's fine. They didn't know at the time they sent forces. Not at fault. However, those dwarves found out once they got there. They saw it first hand and still supported Garithos. At fault.


That section is poorly written. Aside from it being tagged speculation and non-canon, as you quote, it says "it is known" and "we can see" they had troops there... Next sentence says "However, if those soldiers were there"... So it's not known that those troops were there.


"New Alliance" is only mentioned by that name in the non-canon RPG. Everywhere else, it is just referred to as "Alliance". This is in WC3, the TBC Townhall website, the Ultimate Visual Guide, and Annual 2015.

Yeah well, I don't agree about just replacing Garithos. They all died yes, but that was a given. And thats what I mean. They were doomed. But the only chance they had was to be in one army. You just don't try to replace a good military leader(because thats what he was, even though his stupid action against Kael) when you know your chances are slim, and even worse without him. Garithos himself gently put it, "Treason will not so easily be dealt with". His army had enough to worry about the scourge. It does not mean they supported his racist behavior at all.

Like I said, and you being so sure about, there wasn't anyone else there to help them..

I wasn't asking about the name. Thats fine, I know the campaign and the name they use is the Alliance, wich is funny because what the player is playing is the Blood Elves, but you seems to be so sure about this so I wondered how you know all what happened, outside what happened ingame?

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah well, I don't agree about just replacing Garithos. They all died yes, but that was a given. And thats what I mean. They were doomed. But the only chance they had was to be in one army. You just don't try to replace a good military leader(because thats what he was, even though his stupid action against Kael) when you know your chances are slim, and even worse without him. Garithos himself gently put it, "Treason will not so easily be dealt with". His army had enough to worry about the scourge. It does not mean they supported his racist behavior at all.

Kael's BElves was no small force. There were thousands of them. Racism aside, it was completely idiotic to throw away that kind of manpower in such a dire situation.

The only known person who survived from Garithos' army was Kristoff who deserted (over allying with Sylvanas). Garithos was not a good military leader. He led his forces to ruin twice and tried to execute thousands of his own soldiers. He got the position of Grand Marshal because of his father's reputation and title, not because of his own aptitude.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I got one am pleased She is on Alliance and those sexy Windrunner hips. I’ll might come back to Void for her only if she is as bad ass as she seems.

[Doffen]

Kael's BElves was no small force. There were thousands of them. Racism aside, it was completely idiotic to throw away that kind of manpower in such a dire situation.

The only known person who survived from Garithos' army was Kristoff who deserted (over allying with Sylvanas). Garithos was not a good military leader. He led his forces to ruin twice and tried to execute thousands of his own soldiers. He got the position of Grand Marshal because of his father's reputation and title, not because of his own aptitude.

No, according to the game it the army of KT was only like 10 people...

Well if his army was thousands of people, garithos must have had good control of getting them all in jail. I didn't know Dalaran had such a huge jail as well. And what you linked is coming from the most delusional(and fun) mage in the history of Warcraft(except Khadgard puns). Its even written badly as it says itself, "Hastily scribbled". And that whole thing is a tribute to god damn Hotel California.

How big was Garithos army then?

Garithos led them to ruin... They were already in ruin. Of course, his stupid actions caused by him being insane was horrible. But it was an army. An army who had no hope. You just dont simply replace someone you might think is the one that can get you out of hell.

[faithbane]

Is it mentioned somewhere?

And btw, why should half of the Night Elves be Alliance and half neutral?

Are you asking why the Night elves who lived on Kalimdor and had no past interactions with the alliance on a different continent was part of that alliance? I am not sure what you need to be mentioned here?
The first humans and orcs they interacted with are the survivors of lordaeron, led by Jaina and the new horde, lead by Thrall. They were racist assholes towards both of them until they had to go back and ask them for help to defend mount Hyjal against Archimonde. Tyrande actually attacked a joint human/orc encampment in the forest and butchered everyone on it including probably one of the last surviving paladins at the time. If anything NEs would feel closer to the horde with their shamanism/nature roots + alliance with the friendly race of taurens then the brash humans who are lead by a arcane magic user. The faction setup for the classic wow is made for gameplay and map allocation reasons, not lore. Actually theramore/survivors of lordaeron joining the human alliance in WoW doesn't even make sense since they didn't even bother to lift a finger to help them while the scourge was destroying their kingdom and there is even an evidence of them trying to fight off DK Arthas or help the survivors that are trying to feel out of the kingdom to the south/mountains etc etc

[pateuvasiliu]

I'm ok with them making Alleria Alliance. What I don't get is why with the Horde being so weak after MoP, then getting even weaker after Legion, losing another warchief and then THE ENTIRE army of the Light joining the Alliance. Every single Army of Light member is going to be alliance. It is painting the picture that the Horde are the bad guys in all of this. .

Which faction captured the living and tested diseases that turned them undead on them?

Which faction fed on Fel and captured a being of the Light to use it as their battery?

The Horde were never the good guys. They're just less evil than the worse guys.

[Demetrion]

Current horde is nothing like the old one? really?

Sylvanas is constantly attacking and plaguing innocent people. The orcs literally just run around and destroy and burn things. Theramore Isle(I don't care if it was Garrosh, he had plenty of support from both orcs and BE) Ashenvale is constantly under attack and it's beauty being destroyed with no regard to anythin else but their own selfish desires. you're right they're nothing like the old one.

Oh and let's not forget, the alternate timeline where they refuse the blood of mannaroth but still follow a very similar blood thirsty oaf. Honestly the orcs are extremely weak willed and easily manipulated.

OOO boo hoo some one was mean to me.

Will people ever stop bitching about Theramore? It wasn't morale thing to do since there were civilians involved, but Theramore was a largest Alliance military base on Kalimdor, therefore it is considered as a valid military target. Get over it already. If anything it should have happened earlier.