Will Blizzard reinvent the wheel again? (specs)

[LexiSwe]

Would you want blizzard to reinvent the wheel again? Sure there is a case of surprise to learn the class again but now it is somewhat tiring for blizzard to reinvent a class every expansion what is your opinion?

[Deleted]

They said something about big demonology wl and survival hunter reworks - rest get's minor changes (artifact traits get included, talent changes...).

[Yamuri]

They said something about big demonology wl and survival hunter reworks - rest get's minor changes (artifact traits get included, talent changes...).

Both of those happened in Legion. I thought they said they weren't at Blizzcon.

[Kathranis]

Both of those happened in Legion. I thought they said they weren't at Blizzcon.

During Blizzcon they said they weren't planning on making any major sweeping changes to rotations for most of the classes, but during the QA Ion said there were some experiments with specs in Legion that they consider failures, and that those specs will see larger scale reworks. Demonology and Survival Hunter were two he mentioned specifically.

[Yamuri]

During Blizzcon they said they weren't planning on making any major sweeping changes to rotations for most of the classes, but during the QA Ion said there were some experiments with specs in Legion that they consider failures, and that those specs will see larger scale reworks. Demonology and Survival Hunter were two he mentioned specifically.

Ah right, thanks for the correction. I must have missed that.

[Celista]

I think that Blizzard should just say "fuck it" with specs/classes and just let players pick and choose a set number of abilities/talents across all classes and specs.

Yeah I'm high on pumpkin pie right now.

[arr0gance]

I personally look forward to the completely new rework of Moonkins and Shadow Priests with every expansion.

[Mormolyce]

I personally look forward to the completely new rework of Moonkins and Shadow Priests with every expansion.

Would this be a bad time to say I think Shad does need a rework? :P

[Schattenlied]

During Blizzcon they said they weren't planning on making any major sweeping changes to rotations for most of the classes, but during the QA Ion said there were some experiments with specs in Legion that they consider failures, and that those specs will see larger scale reworks. Demonology and Survival Hunter were two he mentioned specifically.

Hope Ret ends up being one of those, and he just didn't mention it >.>

This whole "low mobility melee" thing was definitely a failure as far as I'm concerned... Not to mention Ret has always been a spec with pretty decent mobility, so suddenly having almost none is very contrary to our developed fantasy. Used to be we had a "you can't run from justice, you can't stop justice" feel to us, was a big part of the fantasy for me, now everyone can run from justice and justice is really easy to stop >.>.

[Deleted]

Would this be a bad time to say I think Shad does need a rework? :P

I don't know, I actually think this is the best iteration they ever had. Just needs a few minor tweaks to be perfect (like Shadow Crash being baseline).

[Phunkle]

Hope Ret ends up being one of those, and he just didn't mention it >.>

This whole "low mobility melee" thing was definitely a failure as far as I'm concerned... Not to mention Ret has always been a spec with pretty decent mobility, so suddenly having almost none is very contrary to our developed fantasy. Used to be we had a "you can't run from justice, you can't stop justice" feel to us, was a big part of the fantasy for me, now everyone can run from justice and justice is really easy to stop >.>.

To be fair, when I think about "mobile melee", a paladin is the last class that comes to mind, even behind warriors.

[corebit]

Hope Ret ends up being one of those, and he just didn't mention it >.>

This whole "low mobility melee" thing was definitely a failure as far as I'm concerned... Not to mention Ret has always been a spec with pretty decent mobility, so suddenly having almost none is very contrary to our developed fantasy. Used to be we had a "you can't run from justice, you can't stop justice" feel to us, was a big part of the fantasy for me, now everyone can run from justice and justice is really easy to stop >.>.

They actually need to cut down on the melee mobility. PVP as a caster has been nothing but a nightmare this expansion. Every melee that isn't warriors, monks and DHs keeps asking for more mobility, you're basically asking for another arms race restart.

Nerfing the biggest melee offenders is a more reasonable approach. If you keep asking for more mobility, casters will start asking for more instant casts to compensate.

[Razion]

Changes are exciting and interesting. But if it ain't gonna be better, don't "fix" it.

[Schattenlied]

To be fair, when I think about "mobile melee", a paladin is the last class that comes to mind, even behind warriors.

I see it the opposite way... Warriors are just... well, people, Paladins actually have magic, the Light artificially strengthens them, makes their armor feel lighter, allows them to move more freely... What does a warrior have? Just muscles.

At the very least they should be on equal footing.

They actually need to cut down on the melee mobility. PVP as a caster has been nothing but a nightmare this expansion. Every melee that isn't warriors, monks and DHs keeps asking for more mobility, you're basically asking for another arms race restart.

Nerfing the biggest melee offenders is a more reasonable approach. If you keep asking for more mobility, casters will start asking for more instant casts to compensate.

No, it's absolutely not a more reasonable approach... If the "biggest melee offenders" get mobility nerfs ranged offenders (like Mages, MW monks, Resto/Balance Druids, Ele/Resto Shaman) need them too, or all the high mobility ranged will never lose a fight... Every melee vs a ranged with decent mobility would play out exactly like mage/ele sham/BDruid vs Ret does right now, with the ranged winning with barely a scratch on them. Every melee would be chasing around the high mobility healers never being able to tough them, just like Ret vs RestoD/RestoS/MWMonk. Do you have a bias for ranged or did you just not think that far ahead?

Better idea, everyone goes to a middleground, and I do mean everyone.

The people at the top, both ranged and melee, need to be brought down to the middle, and the people at the bottom, again, both ranged and melee need to be brought up to the middle.


For the record, Ret has less mobility than we had IN VANILLA, I want you to think long and fucking hard on that. Sure, we have steed, but what did we lose? All our passive movement speed, and we lost magic cleanse/emancipate... Lost that for a FOURTY FIVE SECOND cooldown THREE SECOND sprint, that we have to double up with ANOTHER cooldown (freedom) for it to even be worth casting... And to top it off, that second cooldown can be dispelled, rendering the steed useless anyways.

No one in their right mind considered Ret as having too much mobility before Legion happened, including the ranged people, so why would we have too much if we got back to where we were (choice of Pursuit of Justice or Long Arm of the Law(ignore that link saying it's an honor talent, it's not, it was removed in beta) + Emancipation (we could cast that a whole 6 times before we ran out of mana, which is the same resource we use for our heals)? Our old mobility would still render us less mobile than Druids, Monks, Warriors(who have the double time talent), and DH.

So, no, I disagree with you, strongly, Ret does need more mobility, we don't need anywhere near as much as DH have, that's not what I'm asking for, but we do need more than we have now, in a form that isn't rendered entirely useless as soon as anyone with an offensive dispel looks at us funny... This is coming from someone who actively PvPs on a Mage, Ele Shaman, Druid (both Feral and Balance), Warrior, and Rogue... Ret is absolutely NOT fine, and neither are Warlocks and Shadow Priests, who also need some mobility, since they currently have basically none... And just nerfing the high mobility melee will only make matters WORSE.


I would rather have another arms race restart than have only melee get nerfed and have ranged rule PvP, I would rather have another arms race restart than have my favorite class of 12 years remain as the village cripple for yet another expansion... Feels like I'm walking around on fucking crutches trying pointlessly to chase people down in PvP, getting easily kited even by other melee.

But if blizzard just moves everyone to a middle ground, it will be fine.

[Firefall]

I see it the opposite way... Warriors are just... well, people, Paladins actually have magic, the Light artificially strengthens them, makes their armor feel lighter, allows them to move more freely... What does a warrior have? Just muscles.

At the very least they should be on equal footing.

I 100% agree with you that melee mobility under no terms needs nerfs across the board. But (not to get too into Lore in a non-lore thread) "just muscles" means a lot more in WoW than IRL. Broxigar is still the only mortal (only being period?) to cut Sargarus. He had an enchanted wooden axe, but it was because he was wielding it. While not all warriors are top-tier, select warriors of a high level like Broxigar, the hellscreams, Saurfangs, Varian (the fell reaver stunt was absolutely insane and one of the top personal power feats of any mortal in WoW by the numbers) or the player character or many others I'm not listing here are capable of some absolutely absurd levels of power. Warriors have perhaps the widest range of power levels, with very average people being "warriors" and said average people having trained to insane heights of power that is nothing short of godlike by our real-life understanding.

Paladins are priests first, warriors second. The Light doesn't offer any particular mobility enhancement as it's main thing. They are extremely strong because they have the Light powering them, and there are incredible Paladin feats too, but do not underestimate what mortals are capable of by sheer force of will in the WoW universe.

[Schattenlied]

Paladins are priests first, warriors second.

Tirion would like a word.

Some were Priests first who were trained in martial combat, some were Knights first who were trained to use the Light, Tirion, among others, was a Knight first, Priest second...

The Light doesn't offer any particular mobility enhancement as it's main thing. They are extremely strong because they have the Light powering them

and that strength allows them to move easily in heavy armor... Literally has for all of WoW's history before Legion, was the point of the Pursuit of Justice talent, the Light empowers them to move faster, to pursue their target and bring them justice.

[Ophenia]

SPs have had more than one complete gameplay change per xpac, I'm expecting them to be completely revamped once again. Even though I think they're nice right now, we just need to have some real AoE (I hope Ion considers this Mind Flay nightmare as one of the "experiment failure"). And a rework of S2M because this talent, even though it's overpowered for some contents, is basically horrific to play with.

I wouldn't trust what Ion said though. They need to keep the classes evolving to not let people bore themselves with the same monotonic gameplay for a full 4 years period. Keep in mind that with the removal of legendaries and raid sets, your class's gameplay won't be evolving any more throughout an expansion, unless reworks/hotfixes.

[Akani]

Would you want blizzard to reinvent the wheel again? Sure there is a case of surprise to learn the class again but now it is somewhat tiring for blizzard to reinvent a class every expansion what is your opinion?

I think they should overhaul some specs but it's really hard to trust Blizzard's judgment anymore, especially after the many failed and unnecessary revamps in Legion.

The Legion revamp of Rogues completely destroyed Subtlety and managed to make Combat even worse than it was.

The Legion revamp of Warlocks undid the the MoP revamp and re-homogenized soul shards which left Destro non-functional, Demo completely gutted, and Affliction even more boring than ever.

The Legion revamp of Hunters was supposed to distinguish their specs from each other because they were basically identical with different animations, and Blizz's solution was making MM and BM even more simple and throwing a bunch of clunky garbage together and calling it Survival.

DK's didn't need a revamp at all really, and yet Unholy got a better rework than the classes that actually needed one.

[Wilian]

Hope Ret ends up being one of those, and he just didn't mention it >.>

This whole "low mobility melee" thing was definitely a failure as far as I'm concerned... Not to mention Ret has always been a spec with pretty decent mobility, so suddenly having almost none is very contrary to our developed fantasy. Used to be we had a "you can't run from justice, you can't stop justice" feel to us, was a big part of the fantasy for me, now everyone can run from justice and justice is really easy to stop >.>.

What? "You cant run from justice"? One of the original and longest lasting complaints of rets had been that we have no competent catch-up mechanics

[Xtrm]

Hope Ret ends up being one of those, and he just didn't mention it >.>

This whole "low mobility melee" thing was definitely a failure as far as I'm concerned... Not to mention Ret has always been a spec with pretty decent mobility, so suddenly having almost none is very contrary to our developed fantasy. Used to be we had a "you can't run from justice, you can't stop justice" feel to us, was a big part of the fantasy for me, now everyone can run from justice and justice is really easy to stop >.>.

Retribution needs some mobility and the removal of the Retribution passive (or remove the damage aspect). I would love for them to remove the Judgement debuff, but I doubt they would.