Heroic Argus is too easy for an end-of-expansion boss

[Orwell7]

Ladies and Gentleman,

here we see the dissonance inside Blizzard development.
There are absolutely separate teams who are responsible for the raid encounters themselves and separate teams for gearing, and these are even separated from the core class balance team.

OR

they strongly underestimated the value and frequency of titanforging.
My friends who mostly pug and only do heroic and M+ are already geared beyond Heroic Argus. Sure, they will get a few upgrades and TF Heroic pieces are an upgrade for them (let's not forget about pantheon trinkets and T21), but hey, is this even makes sense?

We overgear a new raid BEFORE it's release ??? That's truly some old god madness shit right here.

[Nitros14]

Ladies and Gentleman,

here we see the dissonance inside Blizzard development.
There are absolutely separate teams who are responsible for the raid encounters themselves and separate teams for gearing, and these are even separated from the core class balance team.

OR

they strongly underestimated the value and frequency of titanforging.
My friends who mostly pug and only do heroic and M+ are already geared beyond Heroic Argus. Sure, they will get a few upgrades and TF Heroic pieces are an upgrade for them (let's not forget about pantheon trinkets and T21), but hey, is this even makes sense?

We overgear a new raid BEFORE it's release ??? That's truly some old god madness shit right here.

Infinite Titanforging is extremely bad design.

They're giving up the Legiondaries but they'll die on the design hill of infinite Titanforging.

[borisshayo]

Ladies and Gentleman,

here we see the dissonance inside Blizzard development.
There are absolutely separate teams who are responsible for the raid encounters themselves and separate teams for gearing, and these are even separated from the core class balance team.

OR

they strongly underestimated the value and frequency of titanforging.
My friends who mostly pug and only do heroic and M+ are already geared beyond Heroic Argus. Sure, they will get a few upgrades and TF Heroic pieces are an upgrade for them (let's not forget about pantheon trinkets and T21), but hey, is this even makes sense?

We overgear a new raid BEFORE it's release ??? That's truly some old god madness shit right here.

The problem with the boss isn't even tuning/gearing related, except maybe for phase 4. It's just horribly designed through and through. Phases 1 and 2 have less mechanics than garothi worldbreaker phase 1. Phase 3 is trivialized by the mass ress in P4 erasing all mistakes you made in P3.

[Deleted]

Agreed with OP. We again have the EN Situation; the second last Boss is harder than the last boss.

I bet there are a lot of heroic guilds that would easily kill Argus but struggle on Aggramar. If a heroic guild gets to Argus its pretty much a free kill. It really is very forgiving.

[Deleted]

That might be a concern, but it might also be intentional. The raid is designed as a complete challenge, so some pieces can be a bit less difficult if they compensate somewhere else. And maybe they want people to be able to get their spec trinkets and upgrade them fairly easily, since it will make so much difference on how you do the fights.

I'm guessing the overgearing is more noticeable when a boss has less health, which makes you skip some ability overlaps that less geared/skilled people will have to overcome. For example, we had some pretty nasty overlaps on Mistress and Kil'jaeden for the first couple of weeks, but some weeks later we wouldn't even see some of the abilities during the fight, as we had more damage to skip them.

That being said, I expect my "common" heroic guild (that only so often kills some mythic bosses, due to roster stability) to kill the boss by Christmas, which will be fairly similar to past raids...(we usually do normal on the first week, and within the next 3-4 weeks get down the last boss on heroic).

That is true indeed. Regardless of difficulty of the fight it is still quite visually pleasing at least

Infinite Titanforging is extremely bad design.

They're giving up the Legiondaries but they'll die on the design hill of infinite Titanforging.

We'll see, they did say they intend to reduce the titanforge chance, if they lower it enough it should bring it more in line of the philosophy nice bonus to get but happens very rarely so not something you can count on.

[ingsve]

Every heroic boss in Legion has been a joke except Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden, and both of them were killed by every half decent guild within 50 pulls. Heroic servers no purpose anymore other than farming ap and wf/tf. Could be as easy as LFR for all i care.

That's just mythic raider priviledge talking. HC bosses are usually not a joke for the majority of raiders out there.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much took the same time to clear this as we did ToS, only difference was that end boss was easier and bosses before him were harder.

So far around 500 guilds have killed 11/11HC, does anyone know how that compares to earlier raids? I would imagine it's about the same.

It's still a bit early to compare but at the same point in Tomb of Sargeras (early friday europé time) Tomb HC had been cleared by around 200 Guilds. By the end of the friday that number was up to 430 so we can wait and see how many have cleared it by tomorrow and later after the first week. The same numbers for Nighthold were around 120 guilds by friday morning av 150 by the end of the friday.

But so far it seems like it's easier than both of the previous tiers at least.

[Rafoel]

People with 950i crying that Argus Heroic is too easy

Hint : Argus Heroic is not balanced for you. We will hear about your complaints when you'll be one-shotting Argus Mythic, this version is the one balanced for you.

I'm pretty sure a few "Heroic guilds" or Casual players will have a hard time dealing with Argus.

Ok, I got 951ilvl right now without raiding ToS mythic (first 3 bosses with pugs just before antorus dont count), I don't want to commit to organized guild raiding, yet I want to have challenging content in game. Now what? Heroic KJ was a challenge, Argus... is not.

[Deleted]

I agree that it feels a bit like Xavius. The first and second phase feel like they are missing a mechanic or two and the last phase seems undertuned and too forgiving. A shame since it is a way cooler boss than KJ.

[Arcanines]

so you have to be at the ilvl of the drop to be at the raid's level ?

I mean a legendary going from 970 to 1000 boosts your Ilevel with 2 roughly, so 4 in total, but compared to 945 grants 4 each., and your weapon will also be 870+ which means it'll grant you 2 too, so in the end you'll in 940 gear actually be 930 raid gear, but the legendaries and weapon brings you up 10 Ilvl. Hence Why what I think you're saying is stupid, Ilvl isn't as in the past, we have so many items that boosts you past the ''drop'' Ilvl. Like every raider was 940+ on mythic kj at late progress even if raid ONLY DROPPED 930, because of what I just said

[Ophenia]

Like every raider was 940+ on mythic kj at late progress even if raid ONLY DROPPED 930, because of what I just said

Yeah that would be weird if bosses could loot item with a proc, let's call it "Blizzardforging", allowing items to go beyond their initial ilvl, right ?

You look dense so I'll explain : Full 930 + 2 970 leg + weapon at 970 = 938i. You have more ? You have warforged/titanforged items.

[Arcanines]

Yeah that would be weird if bosses could loot item with a proc, let's call it "Blizzardforging", allowing items to go beyond their initial ilvl, right ?

What does that have to do, with a bit of napkin math, being 940 in a 930 isn't perse overgearing, as legos and artifact EASILY boosts you up 10 ilvl compared to raid drops, which I why I dont think being 940 in a raid that drops 945 is overgearing at all. If you put normal 930-935 wforge items in you'd be 933~, and you'd call that overgearing for heroic? I'd not, I'd say it means HC is too easy. HC is made with 1000 lego's in mind boosting you that extra Ilvl

[klaps_05]

Ok, I got 951ilvl right now without raiding ToS mythic (first 3 bosses with pugs just before antorus dont count), I don't want to commit to organized guild raiding, yet I want to have challenging content in game. Now what? Heroic KJ was a challenge, Argus... is not.

Challenging content in the game can be found in climbing the PvP ladders or guild rankings in Mythic. You might notice, both require you to compete against others, both also require groups and are not individual tasks. This is an MMO. What you are looking for is a Singleplayer game.

[TyrianFC]

I just killed heroic argus in a pug (with everyone tired/exhausted after raiding 8 hours on the prior few bosses), and we still killed it in a handful of attempts.

Went in hearing this 'its easy stuff' but was a bit skeptical cuz ppl love to exaggerate...
... but it is actually really easy (if you're in a group that can kill the prior bosses leading to him - you can 100% kill argus with very little effort by comparison).

Our first serious Argus pull was ~45%, get thru the constellar phase a few pulls later, then a few pulls later killed it once we decided to save hero for p3. Less attempts than agg/coven. I dunno if id say its 'too easy', its a great fun fight. But its definitely much much easier than the fights leading up to it.

Yeah its only heroic etc, but heroic kil'jaeden vs heroic Argus is a pretty stark contrast and clearly reflects a different attitude Blizzard took this tier with the difficulty curve....

[Alphatorg]

Ok, I got 951ilvl right now without raiding ToS mythic (first 3 bosses with pugs just before antorus dont count), I don't want to commit to organized guild raiding, yet I want to have challenging content in game. Now what? Heroic KJ was a challenge, Argus... is not.

do m+, the way heroic is supposed to be it can only ever be a challenge because of the people you do it with and not because of the encounters


That being said Argus is indeed too easy compared to other bosses. Fuck up dodging the cone, doesn't matter, you can take a couple of ticks. Fuck up add interrupt, doesn't matter, you can take a cast or two. I bet even the black lines don't one shot. And even if you somehow die you get a ton of free resses in the last phase.
Felt like nhc. Don't be a complete retard and you kill it easily.
KJ took at least a bit of concentration and coordination with Armageddons, 2nd transition and orb kites.

[Deleted]

Well that's what happen when everyone complain about raid difficulty. Blizzard might have been a bit scared with the tuning due to the huge backslash of Tomb. Everyone was complaining about KJ being too hard/unforgiveable, so they made an end boss that is the complete opposite. Few mechanics and none of them are punishing.

I Don't really care because it's only heroic but for the people that only do this difficulty, it's a bit disappointing. The wait for BFA is going to be long.

[TyrianFC]

do m+, the way heroic is supposed to be it can only ever be a challenge because of the people you do it with and not because of the encounters


That being said Argus is indeed too easy compared to other bosses. Fuck up dodging the cone, doesn't matter, you can take a couple of ticks. Fuck up add interrupt, doesn't matter, you can take a cast or two. I bet even the black lines don't one shot. And even if you somehow die you get a ton of free resses in the last phase.
Felt like nhc. Don't be a complete retard and you kill it easily.
KJ took at least a bit of concentration and coordination with Armageddons, 2nd transition and orb kites.

The funniest part is you can have an afk death thru p1, lose a few ppl in p2, lose a bunch more ppl during constellar phase (including both tanks - and just have a few range kiting / killing off the last constellar) ... then boom everyones back alive and full hp with cooldowns again and u can still kill the boss... as if you were playing flawlessly prior and nothing ever happened. The fight effectively (and literally) resets at 40%.

I really like the fight still, and dont think its easy-than-expected status is really such a bad thing.

[Deleted]

Pretty much took the same time to clear this as we did ToS, only difference was that end boss was easier and bosses before him were harder.

So far around 500 guilds have killed 11/11HC, does anyone know how that compares to earlier raids? I would imagine it's about the same.

After 3 days (US release), there were 136 KJ HC kills worldwide, including Asia. In the first full reset 1238 kills.

[kamuimac]

And how has ANY of the other end bosses over the past 12 years be any different? 4/5 abilities, move out of or soak.
Again, you're not the person its made for. You're overgearing it and are to good for this content so its piss easy for you.
The people its made for don't have 20 people that can move out of random swirlies or soak something quickly. Thats why they are Heroic raiders instead of Mythic.

Stop moaning about content that isn't made for you.

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Which is just a flat out lie.
All 6 of Slootbag's chars are better geared then most of the people in my "mythic" raiding guild (we never finish it, we usually stop half way).
We have 3 people above 940 at the moment 2 of which are tanks and the other a DK that just puts on their highest ilvl shit.

Stop making up random bullshit facts so that it fits your agenda.

the main difference is that in past people werent overgearing past content to this point

which is kinda funny because for past 10 years people were whinin how they want to go straight from mythic to next tier mythic instead clear hc first - well now they got it and they bitch - which is hillarius - this is how karma works.

[Tharkkun]

This boss has been 1 of the biggest jokes ever in this expansion.

It shares the spot with Xavius for being way too easy and uninteresting, and makes KJ look like a brick wall.

First off, there are barely any mechanics. The only thing I had to do in our 2 split runs was run to an orb in P1 to get DPS increase, move from big mean cone with 2 second cast time. Dodge some very obvious lines in P2 every 10 seconds. P3 you had again some lines and had to interrupt 1 specific cast. Then P4 is just afk and nuke boss while switching to orbs every 30s or something and dodge small swirly circles.

Like there is NOTHING going on. It's literally a free kill for any guild as long as they can assign healing/raid CDs to key parts of the fight.

Even our Healers were asking if there was supposed to be some raid damage in p2, because they had nothing to do.

I remember Archimonde being a huge brickwall for even higher up Mythic guilds, but this boss is just a joke.

Well Kil'jaeden was so incredibly overtuned it only makes sense they did a complete 180 on this boss. It's blizzard after all.

[GoForIt1]

The mandatory "X is too easy/too hard" thread when raid opens. /popcorn