No BIG classe changes killed my hype

[Sarkol]

Try playing legion demonology and tell me big changes aren't needed.

Demo is one specific spec that's getting a rework, so..

[Katchii]

but your point while it makes sense still doesnt justify the removal of abilities that werent necessary for the performance, cuz ppl that werent using them were just able to remove them from their bars.. but again some of them were necessary on the highest level

My point has never been to justify the removal of those abilities, only argue whether they are necessary as you keep saying.

The fact that they were removed and the classes are/were still able to be competitive at the highest levels is proof that this bolded statement is just not true.

Those skills and abilities may have made combat more interesting, exciting, complicated and possibly rewarding, but they were obviously not 100% necessary for competitive game play.

[Craaazyyy]

My point has never been to justify the removal of those abilities, only argue whether they are necessary as you keep saying.

The fact that they were removed and the classes are/were still able to be competitive at the highest levels is proof that this bolded statement is just not true.

Those skills and abilities may have made combat more interesting, exciting, complicated and possibly rewarding, but they were obviously not 100% necessary for competitive game play.

thats because they removed abilities from every class... they were necessary when they were in the game.. also obviously after removing shit they also balanced shit.. lol

[Phookah]

it's like i'm waiting for a simple patch instead of an expansion :'(

Yeah we definitely need to completely rework every spec, every expansion. /s

[Katchii]

thats because they removed abilities from every class... they were necessary when they were in the game.. also obviously after removing shit they also balanced shit.. lol

If a class can have an ability removed, and then be balanced around not having that specific ability, doesn't that mean the ability is not necessary for the class?

Obviously when an ability is in the game it will be used, and in some cases it could be considered a "necessary" ability. That doesn't mean the class has to work exactly that way for it to be competitive. If it can be removed and the class balanced around not having it or having it baked in, it's not necessary to the class.

More fun, more enjoyable, more complicated/ complex for sure...but not necessary to function.

[Deleted]

Rework the entirety of Hunter and we're good to go.

[Craaazyyy]

If a class can have an ability removed, and then be balanced around not having that specific ability, doesn't that mean the ability is not necessary for the class?

Obviously when an ability is in the game it will be used, and in some cases it could be considered a "necessary" ability. That doesn't mean the class has to work exactly that way for it to be competitive. If it can be removed and the class balanced around not having it or having it baked in, it's not necessary to the class.

More fun, more enjoyable, more complicated/ complex for sure...but not necessary to function.

they can remove 99% of abilities and then balance it.. would that mean it wasnt necessary? im talking about abilities that were NECESSARY to use to have better results when they were in the game.. if you werent using alot of the abilities i named in pvp you would've never gotten high rated..

[Zeidia]

all the classes are fucked, what are you talking about? and they fucked them with wod and legion, by pruning them like crazy

I can't remember any expac where the class balance was better than in this one. Literaly don't care which class/spec you play, if you are good you can do it great with a very small diference with the others.

You could hate class pruning but that doesen't mean all the classes are fucked.

[Craaazyyy]

I can't remember any expac where the class balance was better than in this one. Literaly don't care which class/spec you play, if you are good you can do it great with a very small diference with the others.

You could hate class pruning but that doesen't mean all the classes are fucked.

i dont care about class balance

[Katchii]

they can remove 99% of abilities and then balance it.. would that mean it wasnt necessary? im talking about abilities that were NECESSARY to use to have better results when they were in the game.. if you werent using alot of the abilities i named in pvp you would've never gotten high rated..

Obviously, to be the best you can be you have to be able to effectively use all of the abilities and tools you have and at super high levels of play the difference between a win or a loss is a thin line that could be determined by a simple reapplication of a armor buff or a quick reaction to remove that debuff or something like that by using a possibly very marginalized ability. The only reason you had to use it, was because you had it and there was some ultra specific, rare circumstance where it could be used to counter something.

What I'm saying is that the class as a whole doesn't need every ability that ever existed in order to fulfill the class fantasy and game play elements required in order to be effective at it's job.

Let's say you previously had a total of 15 abilities. Is it really necessary to have 15 abilities? Why is 15 better than, say, 14? 16? 12? Why is it bad or wrong to take rarely used, specialized and marginalized ability and bake it into a more commonly used ability in order to reduce ability bloat? Or change class mechanics to make a previously marginalized ability completely unnecessary?

I already admitted that Blizzard went overboard on some of the ability pruning, but some of the old abilities were so rarely used but still useful that it likely became difficult to balance around.

Regardless, it honestly just boils down to personal preference. Since you brought up PvP, I'll admit that I don't PvP at all if I can help it, I just don't like it. My experience and preference is 100% focused on PvE so that may explain some of why your and my opinions differ on this.

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i dont care about class balance

Can you elaborate a little on this? How can you not care about class balance?

[Jakerel]

I for one am glad of no big reworks. It finally means that classes that need that little polish to finish them will actually have it (or at least should) by the time the expac launches. And the classes that are getting the big reworks will have more time spent on them as a result too, so they shouldn't end up going from failure to failure.
Not to mention the ball-ache that is having to learn to play a class you spent the best part of 2 years learning and perfecting your play style, provided you haven't changed during Legion. But I suspect a good few have, but the point still stands.

One further point, and while I'm not an advocate for leaving classes in a state that results in people not wanting to play it, at least for the most part, people will know where the classes are in how they play. So people won't need to spend time ascertaining what they want to play, and therefore will have a better grasp of the class(es) they want to play.

[Katie45]

It seems Blizzard is now catering to autism, so you're in luck.

I prefer having good class design over not having changes for the sake of not having changes.

Some of the classes are good, can you read? I said that the ones that are fine shouldnt be changed and the ones that need it should, geez. Change for changes sake is bad

[Craaazyyy]

Can you elaborate a little on this? How can you not care about class balance?

i care about balance only when the game by itself has no other issues with it.. like poor class design for example.. i would never put balance over classes being fun

[Teri]

I'm rather annoyed that we don't get new talents or small changes to all specs. Like, won't it get a bit boring with nothing new? The amulet thing is just a rehased artifact weapon.

Some talents will change, some artifact stuff will be folded as talents, and Survival/Demonology are said to get bigger changes.

Some spells acted a bit different in the blizzcon build too.

It's just too early for a true number tweak/balance pass for BfA.

[Niwes]

while i can share some of the oppinions here, i have to add the following: not all ppl believe the new class mechanic styles after MoP are „fine“. ppl may be right when they say „why change a class when it is fine?“. but „fine“ it is, under the current overall class systems, after pruning in WoD and further redesign in Legion. when you dont like the overall way classes are played today, nothing is fine here.

there are enough ppl that mentioned classes have too less abilities (keys to press), have too much RNG involved, or are too boring, or are too straight forward and calculable, or are too simplified, or are too unversatile. also there are a lot of hunters dont like that blizz gave up to find a balance for a class that can cast on the move, and changed MM to be a caster. also there are a lot of ppl liked the direction ret gone. sp... and and. all that different ppl exist. and i am sure as hell, for them its not „fine“.

in short: maybe many classes are „fine“ in comparission to each other, but just under a specific point of view. from other points of view there are enough reasons to change classes. especially when it comes down to words like „boring“ or „homogenization“.

and as a personal note: for myself one of the most exciting factors of new xpacs was the class changes and all the new abilities. i dont want a copy paste template game, filled with new content. but i am also not a guy whining „i have to relearn my class omg“. that game is not that complex. and its not math science. i for myself prefer new things and evolution and repetitive learning new things and tricks, instead of always the same (even when good) shit. its a huge part of the fun for me. but thats just me.

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Some of the classes are good, can you read? I said that the ones that are fine shouldnt be changed and the ones that need it should, geez. Change for changes sake is bad

and because you like the gaming style of most classes, the classes automatically „are good“ ? who exactly defines „good“ ? you ? and to quote you: can you read ?

sorry kid. but i play this game since release in 2005. without interruption. not that i am proud of that. sure not. but i have seen ALL class mechanics and styles over the years. and i asure you: most of the actual ones, are wether my favorite, nor will i call em „good“. and i assure you also, that i am not alone. so dont act like „good“ is an objective measurrement, you defined.

[Katchii]

i care about balance only when the game by itself has no other issues with it.. like poor class design for example.. i would never put balance over classes being fun

YOU may not, but I'm sure many many other people do, myself included. Maybe not prioritized above, but at least hand in hand.

Without a modicum of class balance, playing the different classes would not necessarily be fun. Obviously playing the OP class would be fun for many people, but what about the horribly balanced and under performing class? That class wouldn't be fun to play, especially in a competitive PvP type environment because you'd get roflstomped all the time. Even if the class mechanics are enjoyable, if you're horribly optimized and under performing and all metrics say that you suck as a class and aren't viable in any content...that's no fun.

Granted, during the design phase you'd likely focus first on creating a fun to play class with exciting, meaningful and engaging mechanics, but once that goal is met you would need to balance it against the other classes. And both of these things would have to (or SHOULD anyway) be done before it was released.

[Gaidax]

How about we stop this rework madness? I swear, every second forum muppet screams "Rework everything!111" as a response for just about bloody every little thing. Just stop.

Legion did enough damage as is with its big changes. They should frikkin' stop, polish what they have and change only obvious fuckups like Demo and Surv, which is what they do, so it's good in my book.

[ramayana1423]

We've had classes overhauls multiple expansions in a row. We don't need it again. It's annoying to feel like you are playing a new class every expack. I'm glad they aren't wasting time remaking everything again.

[Nerovar]

They ruined all the specs I play in Legion so I'm extremely disappointed as well.

[Segus1992]

Some of the classes are good, can you read? I said that the ones that are fine shouldnt be changed and the ones that need it should, geez. Change for changes sake is bad

Mm, except you didn't say "obviously the shitty ones need major changes and the ok-ish ones need some changes", you said that changes are bad because learning things is hard.