Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Swampmoose]

I never said it shouldn't be challenging; au contraire, challenge is fun for me. Nor did I claim I knew how they could ameliorate replayability. Fact of the matter is that once you cleared mythic once, twice or thrice, there's barely any intrinsic motivation left to clear it a fourth time beside greed. Never mind heroic, which is on farm long before mythic is. Complete your BiS set and you'll often have to force guild members to show up.

Heck, I don't even blame them. Doing the same thing over and over again is hardly ever experienced as a fun activity. Which is why I quit raiding instantly after having received my mythic 4 set bonus; I could finally start doing what I enjoy and completely ignore what I hated.

Remove the tiers from raiding. Will people still do it after having completed it a few times? If not, it means it's not fun and there's a major design flaw.

Didn't say you did. Just saying it's hard to fuse challenging with fun. They can't go adding merry-go-rounds to the middle of raids. It will always been a long chain of scripted encounters. I don't see how that can be altered to be anything but repetitive. They can incorporate a "fun" fight here and there (Flame Leviathan) but can't flood raids with them. Sounds like you are just chasing loot though and aren't really there for much else. Plenty of people will continue to raid without tiers who are less concerned with loot that will soon be replaced so the system isn't really flawed. I personally stopped caring about gear a long long time ago and now I just enjoy trying to do better than I did the raid before. I've given 3 out of my last 4 upgrades away to people who obviously care more about gear than I do. If you can't find ways to make raiding fun for yourself, you'll never enjoy it.

[Marrilaife]

I've tried several "speed runs" which usually ends up failing Aggramar and taking like 4h.

Problem with Aggramar is if you get typical "zerg rush" people they just dps the boss super hard and you end up with too many adds left when hitting specific boss %, because these people do not really think of stopping dps or anything like that to get remaining adds in before next transition. Then you have people who fail to cc their adds, people who pad dps on these adds so they die away from the boss and can't be gripped in, and so forth.

And then you have people like the example in this thread, who go there half assed, play hearthstone or watch netflix and expect free carry and loot while barely giving half a damn. That's only one step above lfr where some people are blatantly afk, parked somewhere autoattacking or die on purpose from the first mechanic so the fight continues without them having to do any input.

I can't imagine myself raiding through only pugging. When raiding with the guild, you know what each person is capable of, what are their strong sides and flaws, and you know when coming to the raid you come to have fun or work together on a common goal, the atmosphere is completely different. In pugs, the anonymity brings the worst out of people, everyone just thinks how to get the most benefit at the least effort possible, so you get people trying to get into groups they don't qualify for, people who slack and leech and don't do any tactics, kick happy raid leaders, you get it all. It's not just fault of one side, the responsibility is spread in the nebulous "community", but there is no "community" in a group of strangers, people don't go there to meet friends and socialize, so self-centered attitudes dominate.

- - - Updated - - -

Remove the tiers from raiding. Will people still do it after having completed it a few times? If not, it means it's not fun and there's a major design flaw.

Majority of people play for a reward. Remove gear from m+ and only a handful will do it "for fun", like the high key pushers, same as you had for challenge modes in the past - most people did it for the reward (transmog / achievement) and left it there. Legion removed welfare pvp gear, and look how participation dropped. You can still play pvp for rating or prestige ranks, but apparently that's not enough to keep people interested, or at least - not enough people.

I don't know if there's any feature of wow that can just stand alone on the "fun" it provides without an attached reward. There are small amount of people that participate in specific activities "for fun", but that's minority. The game wouldn't sustain itself from these people alone.

[nocturnus]

Didn't say you did. Just saying it's hard to fuse challenging with fun. They can't go adding merry-go-rounds to the middle of raids. It will always been a long chain of scripted encounters. I don't see how that can be altered to be anything but repetitive. They can incorporate a "fun" fight here and there (Flame Leviathan) but can't flood raids with them. Sounds like you are just chasing loot though and aren't really there for much else. Plenty of people will continue to raid without tiers who are less concerned with loot that will soon be replaced so the system isn't really flawed. I personally stopped caring about gear a long long time ago and now I just enjoy trying to do better than I did the raid before. I've given 3 out of my last 4 upgrades away to people who obviously care more about gear than I do. If you can't find ways to make raiding fun for yourself, you'll never enjoy it.

It seemed you suggested just that:

How do you propose they do that? Raiding is supposed to be the challenging aspect of the game and many find that to be "fun."

You're completely and utterly missing the point. I'll explain it once more and leave it at that: I enjoy (the challenge of) raiding but after I've cleared heroic once, I have absolutely no reason to do it again. Clearing mythic becomes equally boring after the third clear. I can't express it in numbers because that would require actual statistical research, but I know I'm not the only one that would rather skip raid days if it weren't for the carrot-on-a-stick.

So again, I'm not talking about "fun encounters" (you seriously thought flame of leviathan was fun? ), nor am I saying that raids in general aren't fun. What I'm saying it that repeating the same scripted content for months on end isn't. I consider Super Metroid the best game ever made, but I wouldn't complete it every damn week. Why? Because 'assembly line' activities are mind numbingly boring.

You think "plenty of" people will still raid [mythic] after tiers sets disappear? First of all, what do you mean with "plenty"? Do you mean "a large amount"? because that would even be incorrect right now. Or do you mean "enough to justify development resources"? Because in that case I absolutely disagree. Mythic raid participation is already extremely low. High quality gear with exception of tier sets can be acquired through content with more variety, which requires less logistics and less time invested. Remove tiers from raids and I'm almost certain barely anyone will be instrinsically motivated to clear them more than a few times, if even.

Only time will tell what will actually happen.

Majority of people play for a reward. Remove gear from m+ and only a handful will do it "for fun", like the high key pushers, same as you had for challenge modes in the past - most people did it for the reward (transmog / achievement) and left it there. Legion removed welfare pvp gear, and look how participation dropped. You can still play pvp for rating or prestige ranks, but apparently that's not enough to keep people interested, or at least - not enough people.

I don't know if there's any feature of wow that can just stand alone on the "fun" it provides without an attached reward. There are small amount of people that participate in specific activities "for fun", but that's minority. The game wouldn't sustain itself from these people alone.

I'm not sure you're correct with regards to pvp participation; I was under the impression that it's one of the most popular features of wow.

But indeed, it's what I said: wow heavily relies on the carrot-on-a-stick principle and I'm positive there are ways to shift priorities from gear to actually playing and having fun. Wow has done it a few times already: The tower bosses, the warlock green fire boss, soloing old content, class quests, etc. These are all forms of content that people do because they actually enjoy them and not for the rather insignificant, but fun rewards attached to them.

[Deleted]

You think "plenty of" people will still raid [mythic] after tiers sets disappear? First of all, what do you mean with "plenty"? Do you mean "a large amount"? because that would even be incorrect right now. Or do you mean "enough to justify development resources"? Because in that case I absolutely disagree. Mythic raid participation is already extremely low.

Citation needed.

[Battlebeard]

It seemed you suggested just that:



You're completely and utterly missing the point. I'll explain it once more and leave it at that: I enjoy (the challenge of) raiding but after I've cleared heroic once, I have absolutely no reason to do it again. Clearing mythic becomes equally boring after the third clear. I can't express it in numbers because that would require actual statistical research, but I know I'm not the only one that would rather skip raid days if it weren't for the carrot-on-a-stick.

So again, I'm not talking about "fun encounters" (you seriously thought flame of leviathan was fun? ), nor am I saying that raids in general aren't fun. What I'm saying it that repeating the same scripted content for months on end isn't. I consider Super Metroid the best game ever made, but I wouldn't complete it every damn week. Why? Because 'assembly line' activities are mind numbingly boring.

You think "plenty of" people will still raid [mythic] after tiers sets disappear? First of all, what do you mean with "plenty"? Do you mean "a large amount"? because that would even be incorrect right now. Or do you mean "enough to justify development resources"? Because in that case I absolutely disagree. Mythic raid participation is already extremely low. High quality gear with exception of tier sets can be acquired through content with more variety, which requires less logistics and less time invested. Remove tiers from raids and I'm almost certain barely anyone will be instrinsically motivated to clear them more than a few times, if even.

Only time will tell what will actually happen.



I'm not sure you're correct with regards to pvp participation; I was under the impression that it's one of the most popular features of wow.

But indeed, it's what I said: wow heavily relies on the carrot-on-a-stick principle and I'm positive there are ways to shift priorities from gear to actually playing and having fun. Wow has done it a few times already: The tower bosses, the warlock green fire boss, soloing old content, class quests, etc. These are all forms of content that people do because they actually enjoy them and not for the rather insignificant, but fun rewards attached to them.

I do raid cause I think it's still fun. Something about being in big groups to down bosses together is very appealing to me. I don't get bored of raiding per se, but yeah, after a few months a raid get a bit boring. However, I still want raids to last a long time, to allow people to raid in their own speed. I always take a few weeks break from the game at the start nowadays. I try to find a group, but crazy leaders demand Curve first week as well as gear you basically cannot have, so I return a month later, when my guild/friends have geared up enough to let me join them. After I get Curve achiv with the help of my friends, things get easier. And if raids don't last long enough, this won't be possible.

I only play 1 class, always have, but sometimes I wonder what a raid would be like as another class. I loathe leveling and loathe gearing my alts even more, so it will never happen for me, that's why I am HUGE supporter of scaled raids or like raid-mobas, where you can just pick a class and bam, be ready to raid instantly, or level your character to max level and enter an ilvl scaled raid, so you don't have to do all the gear farming. Point is, I want some variation to not get bored, but leveling and gearing alts is not worth it.

[kamuimac]

]How do you propose they do that? Raiding is supposed to be the challenging aspect of the game and many find that to be "fun." [/B]If you just clear something two or three times on an easy difficulty and then find yourself bored, raiding probably isn't your cup of tea. Finding a good group of people to raid with will also make the experience more fun as well. Curious what you think they can do to change this.

cool story but come on and tell us how exackly making a 960+ for antorus normal is "chalenging aspect of game" ?

just dont be a hypocrite - you dont look for chalenge you look for super easy clears , easier then lfr but giving you good pieces of gear.

you are no different then people doin lfr - both of you look for super easy content while playing on alts

[PaladinBash]

You can make your own groups and deal with whomever you want.

When I do my weekly Normal Argus to try to get a stupid legendary trinket, I see retarded requirements like "link your mythic progress" and "970+ only" but the actual requirement is 943 because the raid leader's ilvl is 943. It is absolutely stupid but all I can say is if I was some random noob wanting a carry or an 'easy run', I'd do the same shit because I can. If nobody 970 joins that dude's group, he ain't gonna get a group. If you're 950 or whatever the hell you are, 'skilled' or not, you're just not gonna be taken in by these jokers that want some 'smooth runs'. Make your own. Do the exact same shit they do. Absolutely nothing is stopping you.

[nocturnus]

I do raid cause I think it's still fun. Something about being in big groups to down bosses together is very appealing to me. I don't get bored of raiding per se, but yeah, after a few months a raid get a bit boring. However, I still want raids to last a long time, to allow people to raid in their own speed. I always take a few weeks break from the game at the start nowadays. I try to find a group, but crazy leaders demand Curve first week as well as gear you basically cannot have, so I return a month later, when my guild/friends have geared up enough to let me join them. After I get Curve achiv with the help of my friends, things get easier. And if raids don't last long enough, this won't be possible.

I only play 1 class, always have, but sometimes I wonder what a raid would be like as another class. I loathe leveling and loathe gearing my alts even more, so it will never happen for me, that's why I am HUGE supporter of scaled raids or like raid-mobas, where you can just pick a class and bam, be ready to raid instantly, or level your character to max level and enter an ilvl scaled raid, so you don't have to do all the gear farming. Point is, I want some variation to not get bored, but leveling and gearing alts is not worth it.

Yeah yeah, I'm not denying raids or any content for that matter can be fun. That's utterly subjective, right? What I'm saying is that I don't like repeating content ad nauseam and I know many players share this feeling. Luckily, I'm not susceptible to the whole appeal to loot-greed; I just don't give a damn. When I stop enjoying something, I stop doing it. This mind-set was slightly delayed by the existence of tier sets, which I felt I needed to perform decently as a rogue in content that I do enjoy. So, you can understand why I was happy with the removal of tier sets, right?

[Swampmoose]

I
So again, I'm not talking about "fun encounters" (you seriously thought flame of leviathan was fun? ), nor am I saying that raids in general aren't fun. What I'm saying it that repeating the same scripted content for months on end isn't.

Everyone always had fun with Flame Leviathan when we did it. Starting a raid in a bunch of vehicles was a fun way to mix things up. Sorry to hear you couldn't even make that fun for a few minutes.

I
What I'm saying it that repeating the same scripted content for months on end isn't.

Again, this is never going to change. No matter how many rewards they throw into it for you, it will always be scripted, and once you get those rewards, you will quit doing it. Also, very ironic given the below.

Wow has done it a few times already: The tower bosses, the warlock green fire boss, soloing old content, class quests, etc. These are all forms of content that people do because they actually enjoy them and not for the rather insignificant, but fun rewards attached to them.

All scripted content. Solo'ing old content? Scratch that, solo'ing old, scripted content that requires zero skill or effort? Tower bosses? Scripted and terribly boring. The only reason to repeatedly solo old content is for transmogs, mounts, etc. There is nothing challenging or interesting about it. Again, seems you only care about collecting your loot and getting out. "If you don't give me more rewards, I'll just take my tier gear and leave. If you take away my tier, no one (because everyone shares my opinion) will raid because you don't give me enough loot. Gimme gimme gimme."

cool story but come on and tell us how exackly making a 960+ for antorus normal is "chalenging aspect of game" ?

just dont be a hypocrite - you dont look for chalenge you look for super easy clears , easier then lfr but giving you good pieces of gear.

you are no different then people doin lfr - both of you look for super easy content while playing on alts

Lol pls go. 1) I don't make any groups. 2) I would rather wipe on harder difficulties than clear easy stuff. 3) I care very little about gear. 4) I don't play alts.

Yeah yeah, I'm not denying raids or any content for that matter can be fun. That's utterly subjective, right? What I'm saying is that I don't like repeating content ad nauseam and I know many players share this feeling. Luckily, I'm not susceptible to the whole appeal to loot-greed; I just don't give a damn. When I stop enjoying something, I stop doing it. This mind-set was slightly delayed by the existence of tier sets, which I felt I needed to perform decently as a rogue in content that I do enjoy. So, you can understand why I was happy with the removal of tier sets, right?

You stopped when you got your tier you said. You ARE in it for loot. So easy to see.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I'm not sure you're correct with regards to pvp participation; I was under the impression that it's one of the most popular features of wow

player participation in pvp has dropped by more than 80% during Legion compared to the end of WoD, so change your "it's one of the most popular" to "it previously was one of the most popular" and the sentence will be correct

[nocturnus]

player participation in pvp has dropped by more than 80% during Legion compared to the end of WoD, so change your "it's one of the most popular" to "it previously was one of the most popular" and the sentence will be correct

Really? I had no idea. Do you have a link to the website that analysed the data and came up with these particular numbers? An 80% drop seems, dubious. If there really was such a drop, do you think it's due to the lack of rewards or due to the imbalance cause by classes being developed around having particular legendaries? I can only imagine there would be quite a few variables responsible for such an alleged drop.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Really? I had no idea. Do you have a link to the website that analysed the data and came up with these particular numbers?

Season 15 (MoP)
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...fs/archive/s15
1659 US gladiator spots > 331,800 people actively playing arena in US

Warlords Season 3
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...ve/warlords-s3
1213 US gladiator spots > 242,600 people actively playing arena in US

Legion Season 3
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20755686108
128 US Alliance gladiator spots + 168 Horde gladiator spots > 296 total US gladiator spots > 59,200 people actively playing arena in US

If there really was such a drop, do you think it's due to the lack of rewards or due to the imbalance cause by classes being developed around having particular legendaries?

removal of gear as a reward for pvp + falling sub numbers + legion pvp being even more boring than wod pvp (which was already horrifically boring) are the main reasons for the drop

[nocturnus]

removal of gear as a reward for pvp + falling sub numbers + legion pvp being even more boring than wod pvp (which was already horrifically boring) are the main reasons for the drop

This all seems like subjective gut-feeling more than anything. Do you have that link showing an 80% participation decline, or not? Because what you posted merely shows arena participation at the moment of posting (which is why the moderator explains it will rise significantly) and regardless, it doesn't add up anyway.

[Dizzeeyooo]

This all seems like subjective gut-feeling more than anything

the first reason is literally the reason you gave repeated, but ok

[nocturnus]

the first reason is literally the reason you gave repeated, but ok

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. Sorry mate.

[Dizzeeyooo]

do you think it's due to the lack of rewards

removal of gear as a reward for pvp

This all seems like subjective gut-feeling more than anything

hopefully that makes it obvious

[nocturnus]

hopefully that makes it obvious

You're still not making any sense mate, but never mind. I think we've already established that the "80%" was pulled from a somewhat dubious place

[Deleted]

Neither of you are making sense. I had to read that multiple times and still got a headache.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Neither of you are making sense. I had to read that multiple times and still got a headache.

my bad for trying in the first place I guess - should have just let him go on believing that pvp in legion is thriving

[meekus]

Of course people are going to want to make their runs as smooth as possible.