Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[JackWest]

The thing is; No one is owing you anything. People want to rush through Normal and even Heroic mode because most of them have done these to death by now. They are basically on farm status. Now if you don't check who's getting in your group, your raid will most likely fail horribly. You might get past Hounds if you are lucky, but even the easiest fight that requires you to follow tactics will destroy your raid.

Now why would people who have done these raids to death and only want to utilize the chance, to drop a BiS gear with some high titanforging put up with that?

I for one certainly don't.

I want to get in there, do a bonus roll on my Tier pieces and then leave again, without spending more than 3 hours a week. I don't want to carry undergeared and or unskilled players through the raid.

What you and all the other people with the same issue don't understand; Is that Blizzard can't do anything against this. They can take curve and itemlvl out of the game and people will still find a way to use some form of filter. Blizzard realized that all back in wotlk, when people started making gearscore addons a requirement if you wanted to join a pug.

But don't worry m8
I have a solution to your problem:
I assume you are a skilled player and you know the raid in and out. Open up a raid by yourself! This way no one can filter you and you can invite whoever you want.

Or they can get friends to help them. Its MMO after all. Example:yday me and guildie helped another one with his new alt(thats gonna become a main)Me and ret from guild both went tanks, and took guildies’s 880 lock to normal. Insta invited to first grp we signed. Coz two 970 tanks that are together are enough to compensate for 880 dps, that can still do mechanics right. He got some titanforges from us as well.

[Swampmoose]

Meanwhile your account doesnt have a single ‘highest didficulty’ kill on a current expansion raid, let alone current tier. Thats if you are the ret paladin on Black dragonflight i just looked at. Or was it on another account? *insert doubt meme*. Anyways, doesnt rly matter. Point is people will always select the best players they can find, so if you cant convince the raid leader tou are worth, well, thats not his or other peoples’ problem.

I see you don't understand past tense either. I haven't raided seriously in many years. WOTLK was the last time I did. Yes, you got the account correct. And no, people don't select the "best players they can find." They select people based on arbitrary numbers (ilvl), achievements that can be bought or that people can be carried through, and on blind assumptions (much like you are doing about my experience). That is why this thread exists.

[JackWest]

I see you don't understand past tense either. I haven't raided seriously in many years. WOTLK was the last time I did. Yes, you got the account correct. And no, people don't select the "best players they can find." They select people based on arbitrary numbers (ilvl), achievements that can be bought or that people can be carried through, and on blind assumptions (much like you are doing about my experience). That is why this thread exists.

It exists because bad players who cant be asked to put time and efford into their characters, feel entitled to be ‘helped’ by better players who do. And assuptions are made due to thw lack of accurate data, and some people come here and preach how any such data should be removed, and people shouldnt be allowed to choose who to play with

[Fjordkeeper]

Or they can get friends to help them. Its MMO after all. Example:yday me and guildie helped another one with his new alt(thats gonna become a main)Me and ret from guild both went tanks, and took guildies’s 880 lock to normal. Insta invited to first grp we signed. Coz two 970 tanks that are together are enough to compensate for 880 dps, that can still do mechanics right. He got some titanforges from us as well.

Excellent!
You are of course 100% right.

I just assume by default, that people who open up these threads don't have that many friends.

[Swampmoose]

It exists because bad players who cant be asked to put time and efford into their characters, feel entitled to be ‘helped’ by better players who do.

Again, assumptions and generalizations. Proving how terrible the system is.

[JackWest]

Again, assumptions and generalizations. Proving how terrible the system is.

And what you ask for will only make it worse

[Swampmoose]

And what you ask for will only make it worse

Haven't asked for anything nor do I think anything can and will change. See if you can make it a post without a baseless assumption.

[Fjordkeeper]

Again, assumptions and generalizations. Proving how terrible the system is.

How would you solve the ""problem"" then?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Again, assumptions and generalizations. Proving how terrible the system is.

"The system" is a neutral tool - group finder - that is free market equal access for anyone to use however they like. Anyone here can start a group for any purpose with whatever requirements they choose. They are the startup; the market then decides whether to buy in or give it a pass. We don't get to tell them how to make their groups; they don't get to tell us how to make ours, and no one is forced to apply to any group. Free market forces apply: supply & demand. The RL may want to fill with 950+ at 2am, but if no one is in queue and the few he has in group are getting impatient, RL may have to lower standards and accept what is available. On the other hand, if 950s are applying but there are plenty of 960s available, even the 950s may have to look elsewhere. That's how market forces work.

While the system is free market, there is a socialist work-around; this is where guilds come in.
Guilds replace the "Every man for himself" with "We're all in this together."

Players who refuse to make in-game friends or join a guild, expecting random strangers to help them with no strings attached, are simply being unrealistic. Real life doesn't work that way; why should the game?

[JackWest]

Haven't asked for anything nor do I think anything can and will change. See if you can make it a post without a baseless assumption.

I apologize. For some reason i thought you were the guy saying ‘remove damage meters and ban things like warcraft logs’

[Fjordkeeper]

"The system" is a neutral tool - group finder - that is free market equal access for anyone to use however they like. Anyone here can start a group for any purpose with whatever requirements they choose. They are the startup; the market then decides whether to buy in or give it a pass. We don't get to tell them how to make their groups; they don't get to tell us how to make ours, and no one is forced to apply to any group. Free market forces apply: supply & demand. The RL may want to fill with 950+ at 2am, but if no one is in queue and the few he has in group are getting impatient, RL may have to lower standards and accept what is available. On the other hand, if 950s are applying but there are plenty of 960s available, even the 950s may have to look elsewhere. That's how market forces work.

While the system is free market, there is a socialist work-around; this is where guilds come in.
Guilds replace the "Every man for himself" with "We're all in this together."

Players who refuse to make in-game friends or join a guild, expecting random strangers to help them with no strings attached, are simply being unrealistic. Real life doesn't work that way; why should the game?

Could not have said it any better!

[Battlebeard]

"I want to fuck others over by being carried"

We need the opposite. We need MORE ways to judge other people.

You chose to look at it that way, which is not the point. The point is not to carry people, in fact, I have been working hard to show the absolute opposite. The point is that there are a lot of lower geared or "under-achieved" people that people like you think will be carried who WON'T be carried, but rather contribute equal as the rest of the raid. There are people who get judged wrongly.

A guy, Guy A, who managed to get 930 somehow with no enchants, maybe bad stats, wrong talents, no previous raid exp, slow reaction timers etc etc would be a horrible raider and would indeed be carried.

BUT a guy, Guy B, with 930, who is lets say a returning ex-hardcore mythic raider, maybe even from a world top guild, an ex-pro player, with optimized 930 gear, and tons and tons of previous hard raid exp etc, would do A LOT more dps than his ilvl suggest, prolly beating 950s easily and doubling the other 930, Guy A.

Still Guy A and Guy B, the noob and the pro, are judged the very same cause they lack ilvl and achiv, even though Guy B is 100 times better and prolly at least 10 times better than the 950s with achiv the group has.

The system is flawed!

[Tradu]

You chose to look at it that way, which is not the point. The point is not to carry people, in fact, I have been working hard to show the absolute opposite. The point is that there are a lot of lower geared or "under-achieved" people that people like you think will be carried who WON'T be carried, but rather contribute equal as the rest of the raid. There are people who get judged wrongly.

A guy, Guy A, who managed to get 930 somehow with no enchants, maybe bad stats, wrong talents, no previous raid exp, slow reaction timers etc etc would be a horrible raider and would indeed be carried.

BUT a guy, Guy B, with 930, who is lets say a returning ex-hardcore mythic raider, maybe even from a world top guild, an ex-pro player, with optimized 930 gear, and tons and tons of previous hard raid exp etc, would do A LOT more dps than his ilvl suggest, prolly beating 950s easily and doubling the other 930, Guy A.

Still Guy A and Guy B, the noob and the pro, are judged the very same cause they lack ilvl and achiv, even though Guy B is 100 times better and prolly at least 10 times better than the 950s with achiv the group has.

The system is flawed!

And this is where logs come in. The bad player will have no logs or bad logs, while the good player will have good logs(likely logged himself, because he is used to it from having raided at a "high" level in the past). Returning players massively overvalue their "experience" as well. It doesn't matter what you did 6 years ago, what matters is what you did in the last few, because the specs/raids have changed a lot.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You chose to look at it that way, which is not the point. The point is not to carry people, in fact, I have been working hard to show the absolute opposite. The point is that there are a lot of lower geared or "under-achieved" people that people like you think will be carried who WON'T be carried, but rather contribute equal as the rest of the raid. There are people who get judged wrongly.

A guy, Guy A, who managed to get 930 somehow with no enchants, maybe bad stats, wrong talents, no previous raid exp, slow reaction timers etc etc would be a horrible raider and would indeed be carried.

BUT a guy, Guy B, with 930, who is lets say a returning ex-hardcore mythic raider, maybe even from a world top guild, an ex-pro player, with optimized 930 gear, and tons and tons of previous hard raid exp etc, would do A LOT more dps than his ilvl suggest, prolly beating 950s easily and doubling the other 930, Guy A.

Still Guy A and Guy B, the noob and the pro, are judged the very same cause they lack ilvl and achiv, even though Guy B is 100 times better and prolly at least 10 times better than the 950s with achiv the group has.

The system is flawed!

Nah. Guy B will understand how the system works and will either join a guild or start his own group and will be 950+ his second week back. And he won't be making complaint threads in forums.

[JackWest]

You chose to look at it that way, which is not the point. The point is not to carry people, in fact, I have been working hard to show the absolute opposite. The point is that there are a lot of lower geared or "under-achieved" people that people like you think will be carried who WON'T be carried, but rather contribute equal as the rest of the raid. There are people who get judged wrongly.

A guy, Guy A, who managed to get 930 somehow with no enchants, maybe bad stats, wrong talents, no previous raid exp, slow reaction timers etc etc would be a horrible raider and would indeed be carried.

BUT a guy, Guy B, with 930, who is lets say a returning ex-hardcore mythic raider, maybe even from a world top guild, an ex-pro player, with optimized 930 gear, and tons and tons of previous hard raid exp etc, would do A LOT more dps than his ilvl suggest, prolly beating 950s easily and doubling the other 930, Guy A.

Still Guy A and Guy B, the noob and the pro, are judged the very same cause they lack ilvl and achiv, even though Guy B is 100 times better and prolly at least 10 times better than the 950s with achiv the group has.

The system is flawed!

Guy B is still gonna be wiping the raid due to lack of experience in antorus. So if i want an hour weekly clear on normal, i dont want guys like him, even if its fucking sco returning after a year break. There are guilds for ‘returning raiders’

[Fjordkeeper]

The system is flawed!

I disagree. It is pretty solid in my opinion.
But if you dislike it so much, do you at least have a plan on how to make it better?
I'm open to good ideas.

[Battlebeard]

No. We need to stop rewarding people for being bad and motivate them to learn their classes and game mechanics. Call me ‘elitist’ all you want but when i do weekly +15 i dont want a mage thats gonna do 400k dps and die on the first avoidable 1 shot mechanic. It has happened many times when i ‘give people a chance’ and take players who dont overgear the content

But the system is very, very flawed, especially M+. I held a steady 2,5million dps on +15 bosses (5mil burst), and 5mil aoe or so, when invited by a friend. We were boosting a third guy, with no ilvl, who was dead entire dungeon more or less, me and 1 more dps managed to do two +15 easily, wit +2 key upgrade. We prolly would have gotten +3 but the other dps dced during a boss and the healer was kinda meh as well.

It's not godly dps in any way, but clearly enough to 2-dps +15s BUT still I struggle to find even +10s, cause these were the first two +15s I've done in many months, my M+ score on raider.io will be low and not get me invited. That is a horrible system!

965+ won't even cut it anymore... all about the score... people find new ways to judge on a daily basis...

[Deleted]

I disagree. It is pretty solid in my opinion.
But if you dislike it so much, do you at least have a plan on how to make it better?
I'm open to good ideas.

He did mention to remove all information you could get on players a couple pages ago, not to mention the removal of damage meters aswell....

[Tradu]

But the system is very, very flawed, especially M+. I held a steady 2,5million dps on +15 bosses (5mil burst), and 5mil aoe or so, when invited by a friend. We were boosting a third guy, with no ilvl, who was dead entire dungeon more or less, me and 1 more dps managed to do two +15 easily, wit +2 key upgrade. We prolly would have gotten +3 but the other dps dced during a boss and the healer was kinda meh as well.

It's not godly dps in any way, but clearly enough to 2-dps +15s BUT still I struggle to find even +10s, cause these were the first two +15s I've done in many months, my M+ score on raider.io will be low and not get me invited. That is a horrible system!

965+ won't even cut it anymore... all about the score... people find new ways to judge on a daily basis...

So start your own groups with your key. Get your score up that way. Maybe even get to know some people to run with more regularly, because they know how good you are. Of course people are going to find new, better ways of judging others(and yes, M+ score is better than just going by ilevel or achievements), because they don't want bad/lazy players wasting their time. You are not entitled to be in those groups, you need to give a compelling argument for why you should be invited. M+ score is one of the best arguments available.

[JackWest]

But the system is very, very flawed, especially M+. I held a steady 2,5million dps on +15 bosses (5mil burst), and 5mil aoe or so, when invited by a friend. We were boosting a third guy, with no ilvl, who was dead entire dungeon more or less, me and 1 more dps managed to do two +15 easily, wit +2 key upgrade. We prolly would have gotten +3 but the other dps dced during a boss and the healer was kinda meh as well.

It's not godly dps in any way, but clearly enough to 2-dps +15s BUT still I struggle to find even +10s, cause these were the first two +15s I've done in many months, my M+ score on raider.io will be low and not get me invited. That is a horrible system!

965+ won't even cut it anymore... all about the score... people find new ways to judge on a daily basis...

I used to hate the raider.io when i was only doing weekly 15. After i got it and started to go for higher up til 20 so dar i found its the best thing. Before i was ending up with people who cant go above 450k dps with 940-950 ilvl and dying on first avoidable 1 shot mechanic, while doing weekly 15-16. After i got the addon and pick people, 3 chesting a 16 with a pug is piece of cale. No more incompetent players. Ofc, it happens to find a 2.5k score guy thats also clueless but thats not ‘daily basis’