Communism : Practical. Rational. Inevitable.

[Zython]

If they are stealing it, then that is not fine. If they are agreeing to a wage, that is not taking anything.

[Machismo]

So?

Once again, maybe people should refuse to give money to any company that doesn't operate in the manner that they want. Stop being a lazy consumer.

[Rootkitt]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GyWZr9H8qBY

If you don't believe me, take it from the beings that will make it possible.

On a more serious note, I just binge read a fair chunk of that debate.org page and recommend it to anyone whose mind isn't shut to challenging his beliefs : http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-communism-inevitable

Let us remind, yet again, that communism is just the common ownership of the means of proлduction. It doesn't have to be USSR-like.

You're right, communism is inevitable. As soon as the inevitable world domination by an AI robot race, since communism really only works for robots. Be patient though, someday it will be true!

[Zython]

So?

Once again, maybe people should refuse to give money to any company that doesn't operate in the manner that they want. Stop being a lazy consumer.

Where do you think that productivity is coming from? Who do you think the benefits of that productivity are going to?

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I'm not saying the following as an argument, I'm saying it as a warning: Neo-liberalism isn't tenable in the long-term. Too many people have been short-changed, and they are pissed. You have 3 options:

1. Accept sensible reforms that address the issues of neo-liberalism (Newer Deal).
2. Accept the people's revolution (communism)
3. Accept the oligarchs' revolution (fascism)

Keeping things as they are isn't an option.

[Elba]

I give roughly $4k a year to charity. Some of that goes to cancer research. That's on top of the $65k a year my wife and I pay in taxes. Do you really want to compare generosity?

Nice, given that people still die because they can't afford treatment doesn't seem enough. Maybe the government does need to get involved to save those lives.

I'm saying you support communistic bullshit.

So the things I listed are not communistic bullshit and should be implemented in America by law?

Then again, you also support violence to silence speech you don't like. Not only that, you like to call people every possible name under the sun. You called me sexist, racist, homophobic, and a litany of other insults... and never managed to back any of them up.

None of those things are insults. And I called you them because you support people being fired over their sex, race or orientation.

You are a fascist, because you support violent authoritarianism and silencing dissent. You are no different than the neo-Nazis you claim to oppose.

Using any means necessary to prevent genocide makes one a fascist in your eyes?

So?

Once again, maybe people should refuse to give money to any company that doesn't operate in the manner that they want. Stop being a lazy consumer.

How does that work if pretty much any company does that shit?

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Where do you think that productivity is coming from? Who do you think the benefits of that productivity are going to?

As I said before, one day the boot will be his.

[Machismo]

Where do you think that productivity is coming from? Who do you think the benefits of that productivity are going to?

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I'm not saying the following as an argument, I'm saying it as a warning: Neo-liberalism isn't tenable in the long-term. Too many people have been short-changed, and they are pissed. You have 3 options:

1. Accept sensible reforms that address the issues of neo-liberalism (Newer Deal).
2. Accept the people's revolution (communism)
3. Accept the oligarchs' revolution (fascism)

Keeping things as they are isn't an option.

The benefits are largely going to upper management and shareholders. I have no problem with this. If workers want a larger piece of the pie, they should bargain for it. If you as a consumer do not like the current paradigm, then let your wallet do your speaking for you.

No government need get involved. All that is really required, is for consumers and workers to use their brains and willpower. As for the last two, they are basically the same... and it's all authoritarian bullshit. The "newer" deal is for employees to determine their value, and not accept less. As it stands, employees are paid exactly what they are worth.

[Elba]

The benefits are largely going to upper management and shareholders. I have no problem with this. If workers want a larger piece of the pie, they should bargain for it. If you as a consumer do not like the current paradigm, then let your wallet do your speaking for you.

No government need get involved. All that is really required, is for consumers and workers to use their brains and willpower. As for the last two, they are basically the same... and it's all authoritarian bullshit. The "newer" deal is for employees to determine their value, and not accept less. As it stands, employees are paid exactly what they are worth.

You do that, they fire you and you become homeless. You act as if employees and employers have the same level of power. You are talking complete fantasy.

[kbtdadap]

Nice, given that people still die because they can't afford treatment doesn't seem enough. Maybe the government does need to get involved to save those lives.



So the things I listed are not communistic bullshit and should be implemented in America by law?



None of those things are insults. And I called you them because you support people being fired over their sex, race or orientation.



Using any means necessary to prevent genocide makes one a fascist in your eyes?



How does that work if pretty much any company does that shit?

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As I said before, one day the boot will be his.

I canyt wait for these pussy EU commies bastards to get attacked again. That way us americans can come save you guys again. With actual american lives. that way you guys can go on spending everything on social programs and no defense. no problems right? youll just let america save you again? all while shitting on the system that saved you from certain death and no freedom.

[Elba]

I canyt wait for these pussy EU commies bastards to get attacked again. That way us americans can come save you guys again. With actual american lives. that way you guys can go on spending everything on social programs and no defense. no problems right? youll just let america save you again? all while shitting on the system that saved you from certain death and no freedom.

Who would attack us?

[Machismo]

Nice, given that people still die because they can't afford treatment doesn't seem enough. Maybe the government does need to get involved to save those lives.



So the things I listed are not communistic bullshit and should be implemented in America by law?



None of those things are insults. And I called you them because you support people being fired over their sex, race or orientation.



Using any means necessary to prevent genocide makes one a fascist in your eyes?



How does that work if pretty much any company does that shit?

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As I said before, one day the boot will be his.

The government is involved... and people still die. Once again, I have no problem helping others, I have a problem taking your money to help others.

You called me those things, and were never able to back any of them up. You were full of shit then, and you are full of shit now. I support an employer being able to fire an employer for whatever reason he wants, just as I support an employee for quitting for whatever reason he wants. You went into a whiny tailspin, and got banned for it.

If you don't like how companies operate, either shop elsewhere, or start your own company. If you continue to buy into the bullshit, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Yes, wanting to use violence to silence people who have not harmed others does make you a fascist in my eyes. You are no different than the neo-Nazis you supposedly oppose.

Your last comment is quite ironic, since you have made it very clear you want to be the boot.

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You do that, they fire you and you become homeless. You act as if employees and employers have the same level of power. You are talking complete fantasy.

Then don't spend money at that company. Side with the employees, and you will have significantly more power than the companies. Or, are you too lazy to do it?

[Zython]

The benefits are largely going to upper management and shareholders. I have no problem with this.

You have no problem with the fruits of labor being taken by those that didn't labor? I thought you said this was a bad thing.

If workers want a larger piece of the pie, they should bargain for it.

Unfortunately, half a decade of union-busting has made this much more difficult.

If you as a consumer do not like the current paradigm, then let your wallet do your speaking for you.

So...don't buy...anything?

No government need get involved. All that is really required, is for consumers and workers to use their brains and willpower. As for the last two, they are basically the same... and it's all authoritarian bullshit. The "newer" deal is for employees to determine their value, and not accept less. As it stands, employees are paid exactly what they are worth.

If you believe the 2nd two options are to be avoided, then you should choose the first option. That's an acceptable choice.

The thing you're missing is the wealthy have class conscious. They are working together to screw us over. At the same time, they convince the middle class and poor that unions are bad, and erode lower and middle class conscious.

And trust me, you DO want the government involved. When class consciousness emerges among the poor, and the government doesn't listen, things get...messy.

[Elba]

The government is involved... and people still die. Once again, I have no problem helping others, I have a problem taking your money to help others.

Maybe it needs to get more involved? Here people don't die cuz insulin is too expensive.

You called me those things, and were never able to back any of them up. You were full of shit then, and you are full of shit now. I support an employer being able to fire an employer for whatever reason he wants, just as I support an employee for quitting for whatever reason he wants. You went into a whiny tailspin, and got banned for it.

You support discrimination. That is me backing it up.

If you don't like how companies operate, either shop elsewhere, or start your own company. If you continue to buy into the bullshit, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

That doesn't work unless the vast majority of the population does it. So again, all those working poor Americans are at fault? And as you said those things I listed are not communistic bullshit, there is no need for ti, as you agree that they sho

Yes, wanting to use violence to silence people who have not harmed others does make you a fascist in my eyes. You are no different than the neo-Nazis you supposedly oppose.

Your last comment is quite ironic, since you have made it very clear you want to be the boot.

People working towards genocide aren't harming anybody?

Then don't spend money at that company. Side with the employees, and you will have significantly more power than the companies. Or, are you too lazy to do it?

Ok, I do that. Now I can't buy food or clothes.

[Antius]

I work harder than you and your neighbor combined. You know who gets richer off my hard work, my boss.

I'm a high school drop out and I busted my ass for a few companies in the same conditions as you. I finally got smart and learned the ins and outs of my trade then started doing it on my own.

Started small and snowballed into decent sized company with my second location being planned. If I can refine my systems and duplicate them I'll open more locations. Capitalism worked for me. I can tell you without a doubt that you can build a business with a comfortable living from nothing. It just depends on how bad you want it.

[Darth Vowrawn]

Communism is utter tripe. If it were "possible", it would require every single man, woman, and child to agree entirely on every issue, as it has no leadership or social structure to dictate rules and give structure to society. Communism is also based around the Utopian and insane belief of the "New Man", and if that sounds... familiar, it should. Both the Communists, and their Nationalist counterparts, the Nazis, believed in creating a "perfect" society of Socialist equality for the "workers" and purging the "unfit", using a totalitarian government (which is what Marx actually said to do, through a "dictatorship of the proletariat", although said dictatorships never got around to the "abandon the government" part of it for obvious reasons like power lust and greed) and eugenics to accomplish this "social engineering".

Communism, and anything else spawned from the insane mind of lunatics and envious scum like Marx, is garbage, and deserves to be treated as the insane and evil ideology that it is.

[Elba]

And trust me, you DO want the government involved. When class consciousness emerges among the poor, and the government doesn't listen, things get...messy.

I doubt that will happen in America. The worshiping of the rich and bootstrap mentality is too deep in the social consciousness.

[Machismo]

Unfortunately, half a decade of union-busting has made this much more difficult.



So...don't buy...anything?



If you believe the 2nd two options are to be avoided, then you should choose the first option. That's an acceptable choice.

The thing you're missing is the wealthy have class conscious. They are working together to screw us over. At the same time, they convince the middle class and poor that unions are bad, and erode lower and middle class conscious.

And trust me, you DO want the government involved. When class consciousness emerges among the poor, and the government doesn't listen, things get...messy.

Unions can still operate, collective bargaining is just that, workers and companies... no government involvement required.

Cut your spending, and shop more wisely, it really is that simple.

I want government involved for only one reason, to stop one entity from harming another. I don't care who is doing what, that is the only time I want government involved.

The first option (newer deal) is something I simply disagree with you on how to accomplish. I want consumers and workers to take more responsibility for themselves.

[Elba]

Communism is utter tripe. If it were "possible", it would require every single man, woman, and child to agree entirely on every issue, as it has no leadership or social structure to dictate rules and give structure to society. Communism is also based around the Utopian and insane belief of the "New Man", and if that sounds... familiar, it should. Both the Communists, and their Nationalist counterparts, the Nazis, believed in creating a "perfect" society of Socialist equality for the "workers" and purging the "unfit", using a totalitarian government (which is what Marx actually said to do, through a "dictatorship of the proletariat", although said dictatorships never got around to the "abandon the government" part of it for obvious reasons like power lust and greed) and eugenics to accomplish this "social engineering".

Communism, and anything else spawned from the insane mind of lunatics and envious scum like Marx, is garbage, and deserves to be treated as the insane and evil ideology that it is.

Capitalism does a pretty good job of purging the unfit as well. They just work themselves to death. Or starve or die of disease.

[Machismo]

Maybe it needs to get more involved? Here people don't die cuz insulin is too expensive.



You support discrimination. That is me backing it up.



That doesn't work unless the vast majority of the population does it. So again, all those working poor Americans are at fault? And as you said those things I listed are not communistic bullshit, there is no need for ti, as you agree that they sho



People working towards genocide aren't harming anybody?



Ok, I do that. Now I can't buy food or clothes.

Maybe it needs to get less involved... get out of the corporatist bullshit. You can't have corporatism without government protection.

Everyone discriminates every single day. We do it when se choose what to eat, who to fuck, and where to live. I support your freedom to discriminate, and unlike you, I don't want to use violence to stop everything I don't like. Sorry, you lose, again. I have no desire to discriminate against any of those groups.

When someone attempts genocide, then stop them. If someone says something mean, ignore them. You want to attack them, and install your own fascist bullshit.

If you can't buy food or clothes, then you should either start your own company, or get people to boycott. Hell, grow your own food, make your own clothes. Instead, you want to bitch and moan, and demand someone else pay for the shit you want.

[Elba]

Maybe it needs to get less involved... get out of the corporatist bullshit. You can't have corporatism without government protection.

Less involved? So even more so back to robber barons? Dunno, but European health care seems quite a lot more efficient than American.

Everyone discriminates every single day. We do it when se choose what to eat, who to fuck, and where to live. I support your freedom to discriminate, and unlike you, I don't want to use violence to stop everything I don't like. Sorry, you lose, again. I have no desire to discriminate against any of those groups.

Nah, you just stand by and go "Well, chucks." The people who would actually lose are the minorities getting fucked over.

When someone attempts genocide, then stop them. If someone says something mean, ignore them. You want to attack them, and install your own fascist bullshit.

Maybe we stop them this time before they start to genocide people?

If you can't buy food or clothes, then you should either start your own company, or get people to boycott. Hell, grow your own food, make your own clothes. Instead, you want to bitch and moan, and demand someone else pay for the shit you want.

Yeah, that is realistic. And what do you mean by someone else pay? You against taxes? Any regulations for employers?

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Basically anything you are saying boils down to "Fuck you, got mine."

[Najnaj]

What do you mean inevitable? We have been enjoying it in bits for a century and a half by now. It is what keeps capitalism from becoming feudalism...and all of us from becoming serfs.