State of 10 man HC Antorus

[Deleted]

Yes, same here. I especially remember some bosses like Il'gynoth, Helya or Mistress where a very small grp had some issues with the bad scaling.

Spellblade Aluriel and Fallen Avatar.. Blast Furnace, Iron Maidens, Blackhand, Gorefiend, Ishkar etc.
Basically every raid has 1-2 of these bosses who require dispells/soaks/group splitting - but the debuffs/pools/adds you're needed to handle are hardcoded to 20man raid size.

I think Blizzard designs everything for Mythic 20 - and then some intern does a pass to get them "ready" for Heroic and Normal. It's ridiculously bad sometimes.

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If you're running 3 healers for 10 man, that's your major problem. 1 healer should consistently be able to cover 5 bodies. If you need to bring 3 healers for a 10 man group, your problem is your healers, or your DPS just standing in shit thus requiring extra healing.

Alternatively, why force yourself to a 10 man raid? Why not recruit and run a 15 man raid comp if you find it so much easier? I started out the expansion with a brand new guild with just a couple friends, now we have 25 people showing up to heroic Antorus and even cleared multiple mythic bosses in ToS.

The problem with 2 healers is when you need to dispel often. You tend to run out of CDs and there's nothing you can do to be able to "consistently cover" 5 bodies.
Yeah, why force yourself - running with 30 pugs and you're done in first night - no need to recruit either, just make sure everyone is grossly overgeared when you invite?

Maybe you just want to run it with 10, because 10 is a valid raid size. They're supposed to be flex raids after all, aren't they? Wasn't the whole point being able to dynamically bring people between 10-30 as you wish?

So why doesn't 10-man work?
I'll tell you: Because Blizzard are lazy and incompetent.

[arr0gance]

When 10M raiding was a thing, my 25M referred to 10M guilds as the WNBA. It's refreshing to see Blizzard is willing to still stick it to its less-skilled players in 2017. I'm personally glad Blizzard has done everything in their power to make smaller raid groups non-existent. The removal of 10M Heroic is still one of the best decisions they ever made in terms of endgame balancing.

[Rylalai]

When 10M raiding was a thing, my 25M referred to 10M guilds as the WNBA. It's refreshing to see Blizzard is willing to still stick it to its less-skilled players in 2017. I'm personally glad Blizzard has done everything in their power to make smaller raid groups non-existent. The removal of 10M Heroic is still one of the best decisions they ever made in terms of endgame balancing.

So.. Because you got more people in your raid, you're more skilled than raids with less people..?

[arr0gance]

So.. Because you got more people in your raid, you're more skilled than raids with less people..?

Roster management has and always will be an integral part of raid difficulty. Catering to the lowest common denominator is what made the raids from Cata and MoP far less interesting as a whole.

[Rylalai]

Roster management has and always will be an integral part of raid difficulty. Catering to the lowest common denominator is what made the raids from Cata and MoP far less interesting as a whole.

Aha. But who needs roster management in times of the LFG tool? Just invite some randoms to bolster your raid size and make the raid easier to clear.. I can't see why someone would like the current raid size balancing.

[Tech614]

When 10M raiding was a thing, my 25M referred to 10M guilds as the WNBA. It's refreshing to see Blizzard is willing to still stick it to its less-skilled players in 2017. I'm personally glad Blizzard has done everything in their power to make smaller raid groups non-existent. The removal of 10M Heroic is still one of the best decisions they ever made in terms of endgame balancing.

If anything blizzard is sticking it to the most skilled players as the gear gap between mythic raiders and heroic champs is as small as it's ever been thanks to M+ and titanforging.

I know that train of thought doesn't fit your agenda but it's the truth.

[Ham on Rye]

Normal drops 930 - how is average of 935 too low for Heroic..? Lol

It's not too low to go in and progress through the instance, killing a couple of bosses here and there and maybe getting halfway through before the reset, getting some gear that week and coming back the next week and trying to get a new boss or 2 down. It *is* too low if they're just expecting to faceroll all the bosses in 2 hours week one.

[Aggrophobic]

Cleared it with 12 yesterday. Most were undergeared alts as well.
Didn't have any issues.

Maybe it's you?

[Flazian]

When 10M raiding was a thing, my 25M referred to 10M guilds as the WNBA. It's refreshing to see Blizzard is willing to still stick it to its less-skilled players in 2017. I'm personally glad Blizzard has done everything in their power to make smaller raid groups non-existent. The removal of 10M Heroic is still one of the best decisions they ever made in terms of endgame balancing.

Been so long since I've seen 10 vs. 25 man flame. Brings a tear to my eye

[Trend]

Cleared it with 12 yesterday. Most were undergeared alts as well.
Didn't have any issues.

Maybe it's you?

0 out of 10 for reading comprehension

He specifically said in the OP that the problem isn't with lower numbers, it's specifically with 10. You did 12, that's not 10, that's not what he's talking about. He later said 12 is really easy, but there are not 12 of them, there are 10 of them and they would prefer not to have to pick up PUG's when the raid is supposed to work from 10-30. That's the whole point of his complaint.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but the snotty "maybe it's you" comeback without addressing what he actually talked about isn't helpful for the discussion. Running 12 has nothing to do with having 2 bad options in either having 2 or 3 healers in a 10-man setup.

[clevin]

0 out of 10 for reading comprehension

He specifically said in the OP that the problem isn't with lower numbers, it's specifically with 10. You did 12, that's not 10, that's not what he's talking about. He later said 12 is really easy, but there are not 12 of them, there are 10 of them and they would prefer not to have to pick up PUG's when the raid is supposed to work from 10-30. That's the whole point of his complaint.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but the snotty "maybe it's you" comeback without addressing what he actually talked about isn't helpful for the discussion. Running 12 has nothing to do with having 2 bad options in either having 2 or 3 healers in a 10-man setup.

So, I get all of that but it's been known for a while that they tend to not tune things for 10 all that well and, really, recruit 2 or 3 or even 4 more people. Intentionally handicapping a raid by insisting on 10 and only ever 10 when the raid flexes is just silly.

[Sim]

I would like to see some logs instead of just taking someones word for it.

10m HC shouldn't be as hard as you're making it out to be. Maybe there is something that reviewing the logs that we can point out to help you with.

[Aggrophobic]

0 out of 10 for reading comprehension

He specifically said in the OP that the problem isn't with lower numbers, it's specifically with 10. You did 12, that's not 10, that's not what he's talking about. He later said 12 is really easy, but there are not 12 of them, there are 10 of them and they would prefer not to have to pick up PUG's when the raid is supposed to work from 10-30. That's the whole point of his complaint.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but the snotty "maybe it's you" comeback without addressing what he actually talked about isn't helpful for the discussion. Running 12 has nothing to do with having 2 bad options in either having 2 or 3 healers in a 10-man setup.

12 and 2 healers as well. Should make it even harder then, yeah?
No, I still think it's him.

[jdbond592]

Average ilvl of a "heroic" raider at this moment is close to 945 or even higher. This is why raids are either coming too hard or too under-tuned. People have just too much gear (some people, sometimes).

If people were actually doing Argus heroic at 935 or under 940, we would not be hearing that many "undertuned" complains.

[Deleted]

easy raid with 10 : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

maybe you are the problem.

[Deleted]

Well as far as I can remember this was always the case in terms of scaling. You usually have a much easier time with more players, even if those additional players cause more fails, have less gear and so on, you will still clear it faster overall. It is not really something new, but I have to agree that this should not be a thing.

[Trend]

So, I get all of that but it's been known for a while that they tend to not tune things for 10 all that well and, really, recruit 2 or 3 or even 4 more people. Intentionally handicapping a raid by insisting on 10 and only ever 10 when the raid flexes is just silly.

But what you're saying is very silly. The raid is supposed to flex from 10 to 30. You should be able to run with 10 without it being significantly harder or easier. But your solutions is just not to run with 10? LOL, that's not flex, and that is the complaint, which you still do not seem to be able to grasp. "It's fine if the 10-30 flex doesn't work at all with 10, just recruit more people!" What? If you already know it is a problem with 10, you don't need to be a contrarian and you can just agree with his complaint. He already knows it works better with a few more people, he already pointed that out so he does not need that advice.

I don't even know if they guy is right or wrong, I've never run it with 10 (of even close to that small a number.)

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Luckily there are thousands of people looking to join groups daily.

[Trend]

12 and 2 healers as well. Should make it even harder then, yeah?
No, I still think it's him.

I think your basic ability to think is pretty poor, as evidenced by your first response having nothing to do with what he actually said. (And it is quaint you completely blew past that in your response.)

Healer ratio is only part of the equation. If I thought you were intellectually capable and honest and wanted to have a conversation with you, there are a number of questions I could ask about the group makeup because there are so many variables. For instance, having 2 great healers wouldn't be a representative experience. But since I don't think you are capable or honest, I am happy to leave that as a hypothetical.

Still, nothing you have said addresses the actual question: is it significantly harder to run with 10 than with 12+? And I have no doubt that your third response will continue your pattern of completely neglecting to address that question.

[Aggrophobic]

So a 99th percentile execution that does succeed disproves that running with 10 is significantly harder than running with 12? Where did you take your logic classes? LOL

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I think your basic ability to think is pretty poor, as evidenced by your first response having nothing to do with what he actually said. (And it is quaint you completely blew past that in your response.)

Healer ratio is only part of the equation. If I thought you were intellectually capable and honest and wanted to have a conversation with you, there are a number of questions I could ask about the group makeup because there are so many variables. For instance, having 2 great healers wouldn't be a representative experience. But since I don't think you are capable or honest, I am happy to leave that as a hypothetical.

Still, nothing you have said addresses the actual question: is it significantly harder to run with 10 than with 12+? And I have no doubt that your third response will continue your pattern of completely neglecting to address that question.

Ah, yes. Insults.
That attitude will not get you far in life.