Russia offered to ban election meddling - Washington said NO

[Ripster42]

So a story about how trump wants to keep russia meddling in our election, along with an admission that russia was meddling in our election. Thanks comrade.

[Shalcker]

So a story about how trump wants to keep russia meddling in our election, along with an admission that russia was meddling in our election. Thanks comrade.

While overblown (both from US and Russian side) election/population meddling by outsiders is real threat. That sometimes results in messes that take decades to sort out.

And (even when disguised in trappings of "promoting democracy") pretty much never results in situation improving for citizens.

[Ripster42]

While overblown (both from US and Russian side) election/population meddling by outsiders is real threat. That sometimes results in messes that take decades to sort out.

And (even when disguised in trappings of "promoting democracy") pretty much never results in situation improving for citizens.

This one is going to decades to sort out, that's for sure. Hope you're ready for the hard times ahead.

[Shalcker]

This one is going to decades to sort out, that's for sure. Hope you're ready for the hard times ahead.

So, you're preparing for Civil War then?

Most optimists seem to think it'll end with next president.

[Ripster42]

So, you're preparing for Civil War then?

Most optimists seem to think it'll end with next president.

What nonsense are you full of now? More garbage where you walk around like a chicken pecking at rocks?

[Shalcker]

What nonsense are you full of now? More garbage where you walk around like a chicken pecking at rocks?

You do understand that you're talking about consequences of meddling for your country?

Because it was the one supposedly meddled with.

[Ripster42]

You do understand that you're talking about consequences of meddling for your country?

Because it was the one supposedly meddled with.

We're talking about the reprisals coming against your country. Have fun.

[hakujinbakasama]

It's not like we could trust craven murderous Putin to keep his side of the bargain anyway.

We can assume Putin has literally killed with his own hands. Our last dozen or so presidents have gladly done it with phone calls. Not sure how we are so innocent.

[Shalcker]

We're talking about the reprisals coming against your country. Have fun.

What exactly makes you think they'll be any more effective then Crimean sanctions? ...which are not effective at all.

In fact, your entire premise of Russian meddling predicates on Russians understanding your country much better then you understand Russia; and thus potentially being able to inflict a lot more damage.

[Ripster42]

What exactly makes you think they'll be any more effective then Crimean sanctions? ...which are not effective at all.

In fact, your entire premise of Russian meddling predicates on Russians understanding your country much better then you understand Russia; and thus potentially being able to inflict a lot more damage.

Sure they're not. Sure. I don't need to understand russia any more than I already do to know that sanctions against an economy hurt that economy. And I firmly believe that even more sanctions are coming. It's not like lord dampnut has even instituted the sanctions that were passed this summer because he's that big of a piece of shit. What do you think is going to happen when we don't have a president who has russians blackmailing him?

[wunksta]

Because it was the one supposedly meddled with.

Not just the US, but France, Germany and the Netherlands. Russia has been busy and it hasn't gone unnoticed.

[Shalcker]

Sure they're not. Sure. I don't need to understand russia any more than I already do to know that sanctions against an economy hurt that economy.

Except they only shift profits from loans formerly going to US/EU to Asia...

And I firmly believe that even more sanctions are coming.

Again, Congress makes no regard to their effectiveness, they just want to show they are "doing something".

It's not like lord dampnut has even instituted the sanctions that were passed this summer because he's that big of a piece of shit. What do you think is going to happen when we don't have a president who has russians blackmailing him?

Exactly the same thing that happened under Obama.

Only less effective because all threats already played out and have counters ready.

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Not just the US, but France, Germany and the Netherlands. Russia has been busy and it hasn't gone unnoticed.

French intelligence agencies denied meddling though.

And either way they do not claim that "Russia undermined our democracy!!!"; that seems to be fairly unique weakness of Americans.

[wunksta]

French intelligence agencies denied meddling though.

Not quite. They said they couldn't find any evidence to point to a specific hacker group responsible for hacking Macron. The National Front was supported by Russia though, financially and with bots, and the leak of emails was timed to do the most damage during the election.

[Ripster42]

Except they only shift profits from loans formerly going to US/EU to Asia...

Let me know why the profits from those loans was going to US/EU instead of asia in the first place. I know thinking is hard for you, but I believe you can do it. You're literally giving examples of how those sanctions will hurt your economy. Grats.

[Shalcker]

Not quite. They said they couldn't find any evidence to point to a specific hacker group responsible for hacking Macron. The National Front was supported by Russia though, financially and with bots, and the leak of emails was timed to do the most damage during the election.

You mean same loan that they were ordered to partially repay?

Russian bots also supported Macron. They never play one side.

They even retweet tweets about Russian bots.

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Let me know why the profits from those loans was going to US/EU instead of asia in the first place.

Because they had existing relationship with those institutions and they had better rates.

Exactly the part you undermined.

I know thinking is hard for you, but I believe you can do it. You're literally giving examples of how those sanctions will hurt your economy. Grats.

Again, that is question of magnitude of effect. Wherever it is enough for Russia to actually change anything in Russian behaviour.

And it isn't.

[Ripster42]

You mean same loan that they were ordered to partially repay?

Russian bots also supported Macron. They never play one side.

They even retweet tweets about Russian bots.

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Because they had existing relationship with those institutions and they had better rates.

Exactly the part you undermined.

Again, that is question of magnitude of effect. Wherever it is enough for Russia to actually change anything in Russian behaviour.

And it isn't.

Thanks for the answer. So the sanctions will hurt your economy. Told you you could do it!

Edit: Sanctions aren't always about changing behavior. Sometimes it's about damaging an economy so badly the country can no longer afford to be as big of a piece of shit as it's being now.

[wunksta]

You mean same loan that they were ordered to partially repay?

Russian bots also supported Macron. They never play one side.

They even retweet tweets about Russian bots.

Ok, so is this meddling or not? Not sure what your point is.

[Shalcker]

Thanks for the answer. So the sanctions will hurt your economy. Told you you could do it!

Russian meddling supposedly hurt your democracy. Which do you value more, your own democracy or Russian economy?

Edit: Sanctions aren't always about changing behavior. Sometimes it's about damaging an economy so badly the country can no longer afford to be as big of a piece of shit as it's being now.

But internet trolls are as cheap as it gets; it will not even make a blip on overall budget.

And our economy is already recovering anyway.

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Ok, so is this meddling or not? Not sure what your point is.

Is US/EU funding to RL/RFE meddling or not? How about grants to Russian NGOs?

I would say yes, of course it's meddling, all of it. The only way to not meddle in politics of other countries is to not disclose any opinions about them nor give any support or voice to any movements that might be sympathetic to your cause.

Not every meddling creates perceivable (or provable) change, however. Not even as high-level as financial support to fringe parties.

Society got to be already receptive to certain messages for them to have any effect.

[wunksta]

And our economy is already recovering anyway.

It's growing mainly due to consumer loans. That's not sustainable. You will need more than just oil and loans if you are expecting to grow your economy.

[Ripster42]

Russian meddling supposedly hurt your democracy. Which do you value more, your own democracy or Russian economy?

You act like they're not related goals.

The trolls aren't the main thing.

Pretty sure your economy is growing from it's reduced state, on account of those sanctions. 1.5% growth in an economy that just experienced multiple years of double digit inflation isn't exactly worth the same as the less than 2% growth that would have occurred without those sanctions. And again, the latest sanctions haven't even gone into effect.