Grievous misconceptions/fantasies about firearms (not gun control)

[sarahtasher]

In the weekly thread about ''good guys with guns'', there was quite surprising thesis pushed by pro-guns about the usefulness of ''private firearms owners'' in ''fighting opression''. Gun control threads are a lost cause, but for those...

Thesis A : People did not fought Nazism/Communism because they did not had guns
You might have heard about it, but Nazism and Communism were born in an area following some slight disruption in Europe, in which most men between 18 and 40 had been to an actual war and had extensive firearm handling experience (as opposed as going to the firing range once per month). In France/Germany and even more Russia, there was a wide open access to firearms too. But even the poorly organized, motivated and equipped proto-Red Army managed to overwhelm relatively quickly the insurgents in Ukraine. In fact, there was one specific case of ordinary people holding against regular armed forces for a long period of time-the Spanish republicans (who were, for the record, demeaned and called monsters by the presse bien pensante..., who, like during the Commune, cheered at mass executions and purges)

Thesis B : Japan did not invaded the United States because everyone had a gun
That one is utterly ridiculous. The IJA and IJN did not even considered invading Hawaii or Australia, let alone the United States. Most of the Japanese military was tied down in China, they were not in shape to invade another continent....

Thesis C : X insurgency won because people had guns
Usually, the American Revolution, sometimes the Vietnam War. It's tied here to people pretending to not understand what are actual militias vs American 2017 militias. A ''militia'' in 1770, including colonial ones, was akin to the national guard, hardly random people taking guns and firing potshots at the redcoat. (For the record, I feel stupid to point that again, but the Revolution was not won by minutmen-it was won by a regular army led by Washington and even more by the French army).

[Deleted]

INB4 Deflection

[Z-Man]

"Bump stocks save lives." (Fox News)

[Theinquisition]

Lol, alright Sarah.

This is like when I ask a leftist what the difference between a regular semi-auto rifle and a assault rifle is, the answers I get are hilarious to the point of being depressing.

[sarahtasher]

Yes, because we are supposed to believe that in the USA, there are situations that might warrant full automatic fire. In case, I don't know, you are attacked by a flight of super powered animals like flying squirrels.

[sarahtasher]

Assault rifles don’t necessarily need to be capable of full auto. Just selective fire, which means it can be set from semi auto to burst and/or full auto.

If you live in a situation in which you need to use full auto, you are either delusional or living in a warzone. (An actual one).

Short of that, the thread is not about how you need firearms to defend yourself, but fallacies about how random people can fight off militaries.

[Theinquisition]

If you live in a situation in which you need to use full auto, you are either delusional or living in a warzone. (An actual one).

Short of that, the thread is not about how you need firearms to defend yourself, but fallacies about how random people can fight off militaries.

Smaller insurgency forces can certainly fight larger militaries with varying degrees of success using Asymmetrical warfare.

[sarahtasher]

Smaller insurgency forces can certainly fight larger militaries with varying degrees of success using Asymmetrical warfare.

And this ''asymetrical warfare'' does not amount to random people firing their guns at the redcoats. (For instance, here come a completely astonishing and flabergasting information : actually, neither the Viet-Minh or the Viet-Cong were spontaneous risings...)

[Wiyld]

Yeah I don't know of any uprisings of completely unorganized untrained citizens that ever amounted to anything at all.....even in Syria recently the 'citizen rebels' that we supported turned out to be more then that and they needed massive outside support to get anywhere at all against even a shit military like syrias

[Theinquisition]

And this ''asymetrical warfare'' does not amount to random people firing their guns at the redcoats. (For instance, here come a completely astonishing and flabergasting information : actually, neither the Viet-Minh or the Viet-Cong were spontaneous risings...)

Insurgency groups aren't individuals just firing random weapons in the air, you really don't have a clue to what your talking about.

[Alydael]

If you live in a situation in which you need to use full auto, you are either delusional or living in a warzone. (An actual one).

Short of that, the thread is not about how you need firearms to defend yourself, but fallacies about how random people can fight off militaries.

I always though those militia people were funny, especially in the USA.

Do you guys not remember Janet Reno. Was their not a small militia holed up in a compound (with all their might guns to protect them) and she burned it to the ground killing them all. That's it. The guns didn't seem to help at all..... Maybe we should all arm ourselves with extinguishers instead....

If the government is coming for you- no gun is going to help you, I don't care what it is.

The government has you so out gunned (especially in America) that a rational human being could not even possibly think a gun can save them.

It is astonishing to me that people even try to make that argument. It is not even worth arguing with them because it doesn't even make sense.

Those people are not the reason we have lax gun rules though, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

The reason we have lax rules is because both of our parties are bought off by the gun lobby (another reason to through both those bum parties out).

Before you try to argue its just the Pubs- the Dems had a super majority the first 2 years of Obama. They could have tried to make changes, they didn't because they want that good ole gun lobby $$$. They just make a better show of doing something for the media, but it is all show. That is why, no matter Dem or Pub control- nothing changes.

[Theinquisition]

Yeah I don't know of any uprisings of completely unorganized untrained citizens that ever amounted to anything at all.....even in Syria recently the 'citizen rebels' that we supported turned out to be more then that and they needed massive outside support to get anywhere at all against even a shit military like syrias

There are plenty of examples of insurgency groups that have been relatively successful against larger, better equipped and trained forces.

[Wiyld]

What it really comes down to is this...If you allow the conflict to escalate to the point of a shooting battle with your government....then you done fucked up aa-ron. You are just letting the conflict enter an arena that the government is entirely better prepared to operate and persevere in that you could ever be.

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There are plenty of examples of insurgency groups that have been relatively successful against larger, better equipped and trained forces.

'plenty of' you keep saying this like its just instantly true

'relatively successful' EXACTLY relative to an actual force that could win. as in, 'they did ok for a while, before they lost horribly'

[Gangresnake]

The majority of guns death in the US are suicides

[Theinquisition]

I always though those militia people were funny, especially in the USA.

Do you guys not remember Janet Reno. Was their not a small militia holed up in a compound (with all their might guns to protect them) and she burned it to the ground killing them all. That's it. The guns didn't seem to help at all..... Maybe we should all arm ourselves with extinguishers instead....

If the government is coming for you- no gun is going to help you, I don't care what it is.

The government has you so out gunned (especially in America) that a rational human being could not even possibly think a gun can save them.

It is astonishing to me that people even try to make that argument. It is not even worth arguing with them because it doesn't even make sense.

Those people are not the reason we have lax gun rules though, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

The reason we have lax rules is because both of our parties are bought off by the gun lobby (another reason to through both those bum parties out).

Before you try to argue its just the Pubs- the Dems had a super majority the first 2 years of Obama. They could have tried to make changes, they didn't because they want that good ole gun lobby $$$. They just make a better show of doing something for the media, but it is all show. That is why, no matter Dem or Pub control- nothing changes.

The Branch davidians wanted a apocalyptic show down, they weren't an insurgency group, but a loosely formed association of cultists.

You don't need to have large groups of trained soldiers to fight a battle or even a war. Civilians with a decent level of education in things like engineering, chemistry, and psychology can create bombs, traps, and focus attacks to gather support and destroy the moral of a enemy.

Jesus, it's like you guys haven't watched the news in the past 15 years.

[sarahtasher]

There are plenty of examples of insurgency groups that have been relatively successful against larger, better equipped and trained forces.

But what examples ? Of people just armed with small firearms ?

The Viet-Minh won at Dien Bien Phu because they had 105 mm guns, not rifles...

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The Branch davidians wanted a apocalyptic show down, they weren't an insurgency group, but a loosely formed association of cultists.

You don't need to have large groups of trained soldiers to fight a battle or even a war. Civilians with a decent level of education in things like engineering, chemistry, and psychology can create bombs, traps, and focus attacks to gather support and destroy the moral of a enemy.

Jesus, it's like you guys haven't watched the news in the past 15 years.

It might have not occurred to you, but jungles and Afghan mountains are more suitable locations than ''next to the Walmart''

[Wiyld]

look...these days if you want to be prepared to fight the government...you would be better off selling your guns and pushing for more electronic privacy protections.

how the hell are you going to organize these uprisings huh??

the sheer imbalance of intelligence puts all attempts to 'rise up'...completely out of commission before they even start....

go take a look at what social analytics can do to an opposition organization...let me know where gun is going to help you in that.

[sarahtasher]

The Branch davidians wanted a apocalyptic show down, they weren't an insurgency group, but a loosely formed association of cultists.

You don't need to have large groups of trained soldiers to fight a battle or even a war. Civilians with a decent level of education in things like engineering, chemistry, and psychology can create bombs, traps, and focus attacks to gather support and destroy the moral of a enemy.

Jesus, it's like you guys haven't watched the news in the past 15 years.

The OP of this thread specifically points out that examples used are at best misleading. For instance, even bomb making underground networks (that would be called ''terrorism'' by the same people lauding them if they bomb the right targets) is not exactly a new approach-it was extensively used by resistance groups in WW2. They were not made by one random dude in his basement with three other dudes of his neighborhood

[Wiyld]

The Branch davidians wanted a apocalyptic show down, they weren't an insurgency group, but a loosely formed association of cultists.

You don't need to have large groups of trained soldiers to fight a battle or even a war. Civilians with a decent level of education in things like engineering, chemistry, and psychology can create bombs, traps, and focus attacks to gather support and destroy the moral of a enemy.

Jesus, it's like you guys haven't watched the news in the past 15 years.

and yet they aren't WINNING

sure the afgans have done a bang up job of convincing people that wasting resources on a pile of shit mountain range wasn't worth it....are you suggesting that we could not actually win in Afghanistan?? cuz um... we pretty much did....all thats left is small local attacks, nothing that rocks the power of the country.

where is the Talian? Where is the organized milita force that is supposed to be winning there?? its gone..cuz they lost... and now individuals commit terrorist attacks because of course...it doesn't amount to anything at all. the only way they have lasted at all is by using strategies that would force us to violate our ROE. they commit terrorist attacks because they are fighting an outside occupying force...you are trying to compare that to a local insurgency of citizens vs. citizens.....you believe that randos blowing up their own people now and then is an organized successful civil insurgency?? lol

[Daedius]

Fantasies of sexy gun...



*Wolf whistle*