Current m+15 and Hc raiding doesn't match together

[digichi]

Co-ordinating 5 players to play decently seems to be easier than co-ordinating 15+ in my experience, and takes less time. It does kind of feel like m+ is there to boost you straight to trying out the mythic raiding.

Fresh 110: dungeons / lfr / maybe battlegrounds / buying BoE's off the AH until you can do Argus (relinquished system) > Lower m+ is there to boost you to normal/heroic mode raids > gear til you can do +15s > which boosts you to mythic raiding (rinse and repeat for alts.)

For people that play regularly, there isn't much of a traditional normal > heroic > mythic raiding progression from one patch to the other. I see ppl 1 shotting norm mode for the AP/titanforges/leggo chances/essences to upgrade leggos.

[Erolian]

said person who never did either?

+15 is way harder than heroic antorus, doing +15's i can be hit for 80% of my health by unavoidable aoe's, in antorus nothing hits that hard if im doing mechanics

Its really not. They're both free gear farms that more casual/bad players can spend forever trying to do and gear up in where the players who want to push further will do mythic raiding and 20+ keys. They're just different in the fact that the raid will be super annoying for people who want to pug or play with players who maybe aren't that good and m+ is just easier in that its fewer players to keep track of at the cost of tier/trinkets. They're both very easy if you have good players available for both

As for progressing through the raids traditionally like normal > heroic > mythic. That hasn't really been a thing ever in my experience and I started at the veryyyy end of BC so I can't speak to BC/vanilla. The better guilds just go 1 shot everything on normal, almost everything on heroic, and then start mythic immediately as its available and that's how its been since they introduced all of these difficulty levels

[Krobane]

I'm amazed by the number of baseless assumptions you just made just so you could disagree with someone.

He said it himself.... no tier, no stat priority, purely ilvl. Shhhh stop trying to be a SJW and save "victims"

[msdos]

People underestimate how hard it is to get 20 active, geared, skilled people for Mythic raid to show up consistently. People in their 30s don't have time for all this crap.

That essentially is why Mythic+ is such an attractive option. I wouldn't mind if they did away with 20 mans completely and started pushing dungeons. The problem is they skimp on dungeons. They should release one every patch.

[Achilles55]

I get what you mean. I'm 954 and have never stepped foot into mythic. I don't really consider it a problem though. I love being able to progress and complete difficult 5 man content. Raiding is fun but it's much more difficult to out together a group of 20 competent players as opposed to 5. The 2 supplement each other well. I the mythic raiding is the big loser here though. Why would ANYONE mythic raid and bang their head against the wall for hours only to have 4 pieces of loot drop hat are distributed by some "council". High Mythic+ and heroic raiding are the perfect balance of difficulty without the burnout and wasted time of Mythic raiding.

[Deleted]

They should release one every patch.

Kara, Cathedral and Seat. 3 patches, 3 dungeons?

[taaveti]

I think they upped the loot cap to +15 way too quickly, they should have done what they did previously and raise the cap to +12 first, then +15 a month or so later when most of the more casual guilds have finished clearing heroic Antorus.

This should give a reasonable time-frame for players to not feel underwhelmed by those 945 Antorus loots.

[Lime]

He said it himself.... no tier, no stat priority, purely ilvl.

And you completely missed the point of his post. It's the fact that something as easy as M+15 gives such powerful gear, gear on par with content that's harder. Whether or not he has the right stat priorities is irrelevant, as he could always get a piece of gear from M+15 that does have the right secondaries.

Some classes even have superior trinkets from Mythic than raiding, provided they roll high enough, which considering how potent the M+ chest is, isn't all that difficult. My character is doing Mythic progression and I still have trinkets that parse higher than the trinkets I got in H Antorus.

Tier and the one Argus trinket are quite literally the only thing I actively looked forward to in H Antorus, and considering that he pointed out BfA, the expansion where Tier is being removed, it highlights the issue even further.

Shhhh stop trying to be a SJW and save "victims"

That's not what a SJW is. Using it as a buzzword and incorrectly at that makes you look like an imbecile. Then again, your original post accomplished that as well. I've never seen someone miss a mark so badly.

[Eapoe]

Sadly, mythic raiding is going the way of the Dodo. It is not something I want to see happen, but Blizzard has admitted 2 clear things. The first is up front and in your face: mythic+ is designed to be an alternative to raiding.
The second (inadvertently admitted): is that they are doubling down on this approach. The first step was the advertising of it thru the invitational. Understandably so as m+ is understood by everyone and has a fast pace to it. Players in m+ are go go go, a fast paced environment. Raiding, while just as involved, has a much slower feel to the pacing and is harder to make it exciting to watch by the mainstream audience.
The second point to the...second point, is that they are removing tier sets in BfA, while keeping titanforging. This is taking away from raiding even further and giving m+ more of an appeal.

Now, I'm not saying the sky is falling and raiding is doomed; however, as Blizzard makes m+ more lucrative and raiding less so, there is high potential of seeing more and more people move away from mythic raiding and start focusing on m+. There will always be those that enjoy organized raiding and want to keep doing it, but keeping the majority of those that still do it into the idea of mythic raiding seems further from Blizzard's mind as they push more lucrative appeal thru m+.

[EliWallach]

Sadly, mythic raiding is going the way of the Dodo. It is not something I want to see happen, but Blizzard has admitted 2 clear things. The first is up front and in your face: mythic+ is designed to be an alternative to raiding.
The second (inadvertently admitted): is that they are doubling down on this approach. The first step was the advertising of it thru the invitational. Understandably so as m+ is understood by everyone and has a fast pace to it. Players in m+ are go go go, a fast paced environment. Raiding, while just as involved, has a much slower feel to the pacing and is harder to make it exciting to watch by the mainstream audience.
The second point to the...second point, is that they are removing tier sets in BfA, while keeping titanforging. This is taking away from raiding even further and giving m+ more of an appeal.

Now, I'm not saying the sky is falling and raiding is doomed; however, as Blizzard makes m+ more lucrative and raiding less so, there is high potential of seeing more and more people move away from mythic raiding and start focusing on m+. There will always be those that enjoy organized raiding and want to keep doing it, but keeping the majority of those that still do it into the idea of mythic raiding seems further from Blizzard's mind as they push more lucrative appeal thru m+.

I think this is spot on. The future is 5 mans. Much easier for Blizzard to implement and vastly larger participation. And a small but important group of players will sigh in relief as they move on with their lives.

[Deleted]

I still have T20 on my fire mage. I have +30 ilvl pieces for 3 slot (6 overall ilvl), if i switch i sim -50k dps lower (even without only 4set bonus). Ilvl doesn't give you more power without set items, the good trinkets and optimized stats.

[Nuba]

I can't get how people here haven't pointed out yet how a tier set is worth 30 or more ilvls depending on class. fuck, even DK 2 piece tier is worth 30+ ilvl alone

I still have T20 on my fire mage. I have +30 ilvl pieces for 3 slot (6 overall ilvl), if i switch i sim -50k dps lower (even without only 4set bonus). Ilvl doesn't give you more power without set items, the good trinkets and optimized stats.

oh nvm this last dude did, cheers!

[HuxNeva]

While both have their own specific challanges, I find HC raids certainly not more difficult then M+15's.
Gearwise, I"m a bit in the same boat with ilvl 947/955 (avg T20 pieces are about 925). However, keep in mind that while my gear has high ilvl, it is far from optimized even though it simms 'higher' I could drop even 20 ilvl and just lose about 2% dps. If you look at the time investment in obtaining that M+ gear, we're talking easily 10-15 hrs a week, whereas we raid just 5 hrs.
I'd say if you are clearing +15's and 3* them with ease, you should probably not expect HC raids to be a challange.

[Puri]

The problem is, that my average ilvl is 15-20ilvls higher than the current hc raid, which is only out for 2 weeks and was expected to last for months.

My ilvl gearing process is basically done for this addon.

This is the same issue ever since they opened EN.
The only reason to raid is because it gives set pieces (and don't underestimate how strong set bonuses are, many of them are easily worth culmulated 100+ itemlevel of optimized gear), and some elsewhere unavailable trinkets (Pantheon of course, but also Convergence or Bloodthirsty instinct).

If it weren't for those, the amount of people raiding would plummet for sure, and I am really interested how they want to keep people interested in raiding with BfA.

[Deleted]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...r/lightslayers
You were saying?

then you are just silly in claiming hc antorus is harder then m15+