Mythic + and why you shouldn't expect to get invited with low score

[jdbond592]

My score was over 9000. They couldn't handle it so they don't list me. Can I get invited nonetheless because I am over 9000!

[Nefarious Tea]

Probability son.... You shouldnt take i.e.medicaments, Drive a car either if you think that way.

What I said has nothing to do with probability, and your response has nothing to do with anything.

[ItsTiddles]

Question to everyone who says they got declined. Were you declined or were you just not in the top 4 of the 20+ people who probably queued up and the group delisted automatically when it was filled? So many people say they get declined like it was personal, but odds are the party leader picked the people he was most confident in based off of ilvl/score/spec. If you form your own group, you can only invite 4 other people and will have to decline every other person who applies. It's just how it is.

[azurrei]

M+, the place where players not able to cut it in organized raiding go to boost their epeen, making up some fake "score" that represents how talented they are at AOE'ing dungeon trash packs with a stopwatch...impressive! At least the default response of "don't like it, form your own group" is a little bit more realistic in this format, lol.

I agree with people that if you are pushing high keys, it makes sense to be picky...but for +15 or even lower? Excluding someone simply for the sake of a low "M+ score" while your prerogative to do so, is pretty ridiculous if they seem to be a well geared and active player that is at least familiar with the content, imo.

[ItsTiddles]

M+, the place where players not able to cut it in organized raiding go to boost their epeen, making up some fake "score" that represents how talented they are at AOE'ing dungeon trash packs with a stopwatch...impressive!

Who hurt you?


Side note: Watched this random guy de-list and re-list his group for a solid 30 minutes looking for 955+ ilvl/2.3k+ score for a 15. He didn't actually have either of those things, funnily enough. More to the topic, saw multiple of the exact same key pop up and fill before I afk'd. People can be as picky as they want if they're willing to wait an indefinite amount of time to fill. There are other keys available, even if you don't feel like making your own group.

[Morbeam]

Yeah, but you'll have a better M+ score if you run all dungeons in +12 instead of running only Cathedral of the Eternal Night +35.

That's the problem with this system. The only M+ Score that could/should be taken into account is the M+ Score of the dungeon you're applying too.

That's the same as me linking my Diablo III record rift to show you how skilled I am to apply for a Mythic Raid in WoW. That's unrelated and you won't even take it into account. Why would you take into account the fact that I've successfully done a CoS+16 when we're heading toward a HoV+15 ? That's nonsense.

I completely agree with you. I usually do only 3 -4 dungeons that I really like and I need items from and my score is based on those runs. You can imagine its pretty low BUT if you check my runs in neltharion's lair for example you are going to see a high amount of successful runs which normally means you are very experienced in doind that dungeon ... meanwhile my scrore can go to hell cause it won't tell you anything

[Yunaqt]

I have a M+ score of 665, rip guess I can't do M+

https://raider.io/characters/us/frostmourne/Yunaqt

[potis]

I didnt read through 7 pages but i dont understand why people dont get why the whole M+ score exists.

Item level doesnt mean anything, its knowing how to counter every single pack with every single different combination of M+ affixes.

There is an insane amount of horrible players, and M+ multiplies than number even more so.

My own friends, my own gf which for my standards are -terrible players- are wearing 950-955 gear, yet i would never get them into a group if i had the choice, apart from one or two of them.

The problem is that they simply dont remember things despite doing them before, and before that, and even before that.

Same with every other player out there.

99% of the players out there are beyond horrible levels, not because they cant do the rotation, or because they cant DPS, its because most do not remember things they did 3 weeks ago, to the same exact fucking place.

Or they dont remember whats deadly and needs to be countered and need to be reminded every fucking week.

Or they dont remember the cheesing tactic of this particular pack with that particular affix, etc etc.

High level keys is not about pulling your single target 1.5-1.9mil DPS, its about not being a mongoloid and remembering how to counter every single thing so you wont wipe.

Despite not having a high M+ cause i dont give a fuck, i just grab my terrible friends and carry them to whatever the weekly chest is needed for, cancerous but it can be fun since they are IRL friends.

But M+ "score" exists for a reason and i totally accept people that do it even if i will never get invited.

[Lucrece]

Hello people on MMO, I have been reading a lot about this lately, and thought i'd give my input.
As a player who run a lot with guild i have obtained a high enough mythic score, that i get accepted into most pugs that want to farm 15-18 keys. I see a lot of complaining about "why are people not taking me into their groups?? I know i am good enough even though i only have 1,3k m+ score and 5 failed +15's on my wowprogress"
If you look from the point of view, from a player that has high mythic+ score, who has been farming a lot to get his mythic+ score up, why should he pick you?

1st of all there is a million dps in queue to pick between, so if you are playing dps without high m+ score you must face that you're never going to get picked for high keys
2nd Why is it you think you are entitled to a spot in a group with people, far superior to you in terms of experience and the amount of work they have put into mythic+? Would you expect to get into master tier games in league, when you are only at silver MMR?
my 3rd and last point, gear is so easily available now, heroic + normal Antorus is a joke, so looking at your 950 ilvl doesn't say much about what we can expect from you. I just now pugged a EoA +15 and it was so painful to get through, even with everyone at 945+, we had a DK who died on every boss because he failed mechanics, tank was squishy as fuck, died multiple times on small thrash pulls, and the warrior was awfull as well.
We barely killed last boss and I think we 1 chested it. With a group of players with high mythic+ score, we will usually 3 chest a key like this.
So yes, in my opinion we do need some way to measure mythic + skill.

I suggest if you got low score, but think you are good at the game, go find a guild or some friends with your own key, and work your skill + experience up this way, that’s how most of us have done it.
I don't expect to get into groups with 2,6k players when I’m only at 2,3k.
Instead I will go play with players who also has around 2,3k and work my way up.
I apologize for bad gramma, but English is not my first language

I have keystone master before the power creep made it a joke after Nighthold. We hit it on Emerald Nightmare. I took a break after nighthold, which means my mythic score went to shit since it's based on season.

Which is absurd, because +15 is a joke even at ilv930 despite my tank being 945.

Just 2 chested a 15 vault with tyrannical on a 250 mythic+ score. It's a joke, I barely took any damage as a tank, if we didn't 3 chest it was because some dps didn't pop defensive cd's during a high burst period, that's it.

Mythic score is no proof of skill whatsoever. It's a proof of timesink, which is no guarantee whatsoever that the person is any good because some guy can play WoW for 2 years and still be awful at it while a raider from FFXIV may have come in only a month or two ago and transferred skills that serve him well in wow raids and dungeons.

It's lazy bullshit, plainly put. People have ridiculous requirements. Most people just want to clear a +15 key, and a 940 ilv is such overkill on top of the absurdity of a m+ score of 2k.

I'm not a DPS, and as a tank I had to sit in queue for 2 days to make it to a +15 invite because people have gotten so ridiculous with these raider.io apps. Even at the beginning of Legion going for keystone master during EN did not have people being so absurdly stupid as to use these apps as a cutoff for participation.

The barrier to entry only keeps getting higher and higher to the point where it makes it impossible for people who take a break or are returning players have no chance whatsoever at reasonably catching up and participating in high end content because of community imposed bullshit.

[Deleted]

"The community" imposed this "bullshit" because everyone is tired with monkeys. Last evening I got into a simple 16 NL pug as tank. All smooth until the first pelter pack with current affixes. Noone used any CC, my imprison was knocked off every time I used it, instead of focusing 1-2 targets the dps ran around like a chicken with it's head cut off - the "leet" dps with score 2-3 times as high as mine - and eventually left after 3rd wipe. 3rd wipe to thrash in a 16. The first leavers were the ones with highest score.

[Ortus]

Yeah, but you'll have a better M+ score if you run all dungeons in +12 instead of running only Cathedral of the Eternal Night +35.

That's the problem with this system. The only M+ Score that could/should be taken into account is the M+ Score of the dungeon you're applying too.

That's the same as me linking my Diablo III record rift to show you how skilled I am to apply for a Mythic Raid in WoW. That's unrelated and you won't even take it into account. Why would you take into account the fact that I've successfully done a CoS+16 when we're heading toward a HoV+15 ? That's nonsense.

Almost like that's the reason they added highest key completed overall and for the specific dungeon to the tooltip included with the score addons.

[NehmTH]

It's a bit funny seeing people here saying m+ is so easy, and there's no skill required etc. Can the same be said for raiding then?
What a high m+ score tells me, is that you have completed every dungeon on a somewhat decent key, and therefore know how the trash works - what to interrupt, what to pop a defensive on, what ability is deadly etc. The higher the key gets, the more micromanagement you need to make it trough. Of course a +15 is a joke, but some dungeons still have one-shot mechanics that a lot of people don't know about unless they have experience.

I'm still encountering players who don't use defensives on last boss in BRH's first shadow bolt volley. And that is the most commonly known one shot of them all.

[Loosecannon]

I guess I would like to try and turn the argument around - frame m+ requirements like raiding.

Imagine an ideal raid with 10 bosses, each of which is 10% compounding harder than the last one. Each of these fights takes ~30 minutes.

First of all - if you're good at raiding, would you take people without AOTC to this raid if you wanted to clear it? (Judging from the answers on live, the answer is usually 'I don't want to carry scrubs, so no'.

Now, imagine if, for this exact same raid, if you wiped on a boss, that you would have to go back and kill the previous boss, as well as the boss you were currently on, in order to progress to the next boss.

What if also - these bosses had a variety of different mechanics which changed every week, and required you to have knowledge of the mechanic combinations, as ignoring them would mean a group wipe.

Now, assume that there is a boss which is say 5th in this raid, which you can portal to, if you've done the 6th boss the previous week. This boss completes the weekly 'raid' quest which awards a lootbox.

Think this way, you're a good raider, you want to kill 9 or 10 of these bosses, but last week, you maybe only managed to kill 6 of them. Would you take someone into your raid who didn't have 'Curve'/High ilvl in order to ensure that your run went as smooth as possibly?

Then imagine if the argument was 'I do really high m+ every week, and only want to do the raid for my weekly chest, why won't the people who want to push the raid take me in their group, I don't have curve but I am mega pro SRS'. Is this a ridiculous argument?

*I KNOW* this is not directly analogous to m+ rating, but I'm trying my best to frame this argument as if raids were thought of the way M+ is. If anyone has a better thought about how to turn this around to make it more analogous, please share it. I agree that neither iLvl or M+ score is perfect (I'd actually like Blizzard to implement M+ score kind of like how they do rating for PVP, this would allow a variety of more interaction on it), neither is curve etc. But in a world with a lack of other metrics, they're better than nothing IMO.

NB - I don't have a problem with people asking for curve/high score/high ilvl etc - it's their own group, and therefore their own prerogative. People enjoy the game in different ways, and especially if youre time limited, and a good player, setting higher requirements allows you to have a higher *chance* of having an enjoyable experience.

[Sevyvia]

Hah. Well, I guess I don't envy the people that have to pug. I just do a weekly +15 (failed or not, who gives a shit, get the +15 chest regardless) with a group of friends and that's that. I think we have a 400ish score for this season so far?

I'd seriously recommend people try the same rather than have to deal with the kind of tiresome attitude in the OP. Get a group together. From your guild, from your realm's trade... whatever. After a little while of doing this weekly, I'm sure you'll have enough folks that you can at least guarantee more than half the group will be made of decent people, and you can usually pug the rest and be alright.

[Ophenia]

What a high m+ score tells me, is that you have completed every dungeon on a somewhat decent key, and therefore know how the trash works - what to interrupt, what to pop a defensive on, what ability is deadly etc. The higher the key gets, the more micromanagement you need to make it trough. Of course a +15 is a joke, but some dungeons still have one-shot mechanics that a lot of people don't know about unless they have experience.

Last week I've ran a few MM+ powerleveling a friend's guildmate. This guy sucked hard, was unstuffed (2.7M hp / 3 or 400k dps), but thanks to this small afternoon, I'm sure he has approximately the same M+ score as my DH (around 945, decently geared, always trying to optimize myself). He literally just needs to craft a few 910 tokens and run a few LFR to be on par with me. That would be a 50% chance for you to select him, with a catastrophic result.

[MrDaemon]

But M+ "score" exists for a reason and i totally accept people that do it even if i will never get invited.

Yeah and what is that reason? It only says you completed several dungeons on high keys. I can do all dungeons on 15 on my main and have high M+ score but why would I do that? Most of the time I run same 4 dungeons because they are easy and I couldn't give a shit about M+ score.

It proves nothing because even with high score you can be trash player. Also there was no M+ score before and we did just fine so I am not sure why is it a problem now.

Only time M+ score could have some real value is if it created score for every dungeon separately based on performance in all your runs for that dungeon. And you would need at least 5 runs at 10+ keys to calculate that score.

[Loosecannon]

Yeah and what is that reason? It only says you completed several dungeons on high keys. I can do all dungeons on 15 on my main and have high M+ score but why would I do that? Most of the time I run same 4 dungeons because they are easy and I couldn't give a shit about M+ score.

It proves nothing because even with high score you can be trash player. Also there was no M+ score before and we did just fine so I am not sure why is it a problem now.

Only time M+ score could have some real value is if it created score for every dungeon separately based on performance in all your runs for that dungeon. And you would need at least 5 runs at 10+ keys to calculate that score.

Nobody is arguing that it's an ideal metric, I think everyone is aware of its flaws. However, you could say exactly the same comments, but with requiring Curve for a heroic raid. Having AOTC is no guarantee that someone is a good player either, but people use a metric which is available to them to assess people when they have no other indication of their playing ability. M+ is exactly that.

The comments when people require AOTC and high iLvl are 'make your own group', why aren't these same comments being made around M+ score? Is this just because it's a newer metric, so people aren't used to it?

[Archmage Alodi]

What about raiders who don't give a shit about spamming shit +? anyway getting into a lvl 15 key w/o high score is not hard at all. have fun with your new e-peen measure.

[lonely zergling]

Buy a boost! Only costs a token value in gold (atm 268k gold on EU). Made like ~250€ battlenet balance with simply boosting baddies the last weeks while farming gear for my self lul.

[kamuimac]

Hello people on MMO, I have been reading a lot about this lately, and thought i'd give my input.
As a player who run a lot with guild i have obtained a high enough mythic score, that i get accepted into most pugs that want to farm 15-18 keys. I see a lot of complaining about "why are people not taking me into their groups?? I know i am good enough even though i only have 1,3k m+ score and 5 failed +15's on my wowprogress"
If you look from the point of view, from a player that has high mythic+ score, who has been farming a lot to get his mythic+ score up, why should he pick you?

1st of all there is a million dps in queue to pick between, so if you are playing dps without high m+ score you must face that you're never going to get picked for high keys
2nd Why is it you think you are entitled to a spot in a group with people, far superior to you in terms of experience and the amount of work they have put into mythic+? Would you expect to get into master tier games in league, when you are only at silver MMR?
my 3rd and last point, gear is so easily available now, heroic + normal Antorus is a joke, so looking at your 950 ilvl doesn't say much about what we can expect from you. I just now pugged a EoA +15 and it was so painful to get through, even with everyone at 945+, we had a DK who died on every boss because he failed mechanics, tank was squishy as fuck, died multiple times on small thrash pulls, and the warrior was awfull as well.
We barely killed last boss and I think we 1 chested it. With a group of players with high mythic+ score, we will usually 3 chest a key like this.
So yes, in my opinion we do need some way to measure mythic + skill.

I suggest if you got low score, but think you are good at the game, go find a guild or some friends with your own key, and work your skill + experience up this way, that’s how most of us have done it.
I don't expect to get into groups with 2,6k players when I’m only at 2,3k.
Instead I will go play with players who also has around 2,3k and work my way up.
I apologize for bad gramma, but English is not my first language

all you suggestions have no place in era where every single popular game out there offers "1 click = join group and play " features.

your era is bygone - and fighting this is pointless. it only make you look st...pid /shrug