How/why were the pantheon able to defeat Sargeras this time and not the first?

[Beloren]

In Chronicles he obliterated them, so how come we see them able to handle him after just recovering? Someone please explain.

[Piamonte]

because they didnt fight him, they trapped him using the seat of the pantheon and the power of argus

[Molvonos]

They didn't have any direct interaction with him and his fel-infused nature, which is a direct counter to their more Arcane-aligned beings, according to the Chronicle. It was easier using the power of Argus (which honestly, makes me wonder, because Argus-Planet was fel-infused through and through) to entrap and contain versus direct conflict.

[cparle87]

because they didnt fight him, they trapped him using the seat of the pantheon and the power of argus

This basically. They were in their seat of power, and they were tapping into Argus' admittedly great power. That's why Illidan stayed behind. To make sure Sargeras couldn't overpower them again.

[TheFirstOnes]

Well, A. The Seat of the Pantheon combined all of the Pantheon's Power to Sargeras, hence grabbing his ass.

And, also, B. Argus, even as a DEAD World Soul, had enough fucking Power to act as the Final Blow to Imprison Sargeras, forever.

And note that this Titan, even when tormented, could cast this: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

AND YES, SINCE MYTHIC IS CANON, AND SENSE HE STILL CASTS THIS SHIT, I WILL CONFIRM THAT THIS IS BOTH A LORE SPELL, AS WELL AS A CANON SPELL!

[nothingsjim]

Well...

1. Sargeras didn't have his army with him this time. Remember last time it was actually Sargeras + Burning Legion vs Pantheon, not Sargeras solo Pantheon.
2. Last time it was a random encounter in the middle of nowhere, this time the Pantheon is at Seat of Pantheon, their place of power so they have a big "Homefield Advantage". It's like Tirion + Light's Hope Chapel vs Lich King again.
3. Pantheon got a little boost via Argus's remaining power.
4. Sargeras is distracted since he's busy humping Azeroth.

[MechaCThun]

The remaining power of Argus' world-soul.

[Hctaz]

This basically. They were in their seat of power, and they were tapping into Argus' admittedly great power. That's why Illidan stayed behind. To make sure Sargeras couldn't overpower them again.

Not true about Illidan. He didn't stay to make sure of anything. He stayed because "the hunter is nothing without the hunt." His entire life was dedicated to destroying the Legion. He chose to stay because he just wanted to be the jailer to Sargeras forever, not because he needed him to. Nobody asked him, and his sacrifice wasn't needed at all. Argus' power was enough to trap Sargeras there forever.

[cparle87]

Not true about Illidan. He didn't stay to make sure of anything. He stayed because "the hunter is nothing without the hunt." His entire life was dedicated to destroying the Legion. He chose to stay because he just wanted to be the jailer to Sargeras forever, not because he needed him to. Nobody asked him, and his sacrifice wasn't needed at all. Argus' power was enough to trap Sargeras there forever.

It remains to be seen if the Pantheon can hold Sargeras, even with Illidan's help. The Pantheon has the elemental rock/papers/scissors disadvantage against Sargeras, that's how he won the first time, and that was when they weren't just beginning to recover from millenia of torture. True, Illidan's whole purpose was beating the Legion, for good. It's not for good if Sargeras ever has a chance to escape. Remember after we beat the Avatar of Sargeras and Khadgar wants to seal the portal and consider the job done? Both Velen and Illidan know the Legion has all the time in the world to wait for the chance to strike. If Illidan being there reduces the chance of Sargeras escaping by even the tiniest fraction of a percent, he'll consider it worth it.

[Aucald]

Having been tortured by the Legion for untold eons the Pantheon may have gotten over the susceptibility to Fel somewhat - although as has been said above they don't actually "defeat" him insomuch as imprison him, and themselves, within the Seat of the Pantheon.

[Hctaz]

It remains to be seen if the Pantheon can hold Sargeras, even with Illidan's help. The Pantheon has the elemental rock/papers/scissors disadvantage against Sargeras, that's how he won the first time, and that was when they weren't just beginning to recover from millenia of torture. True, Illidan's whole purpose was beating the Legion, for good. It's not for good if Sargeras ever has a chance to escape. Remember after we beat the Avatar of Sargeras and Khadgar wants to seal the portal and consider the job done? Both Velen and Illidan know the Legion has all the time in the world to wait for the chance to strike. If Illidan being there reduces the chance of Sargeras escaping by even the tiniest fraction of a percent, he'll consider it worth it.

It still simply isn't the reason why he did it though. He didn't do it to save us, he did it because he wanted to. You're taking away from his character by making him out to be righteous. He isn't righteous, and he never has been. He's incredibly selfish. He does things the way he wants to because he thinks he's right. The plan was not for him to stay, and nobody asked him. This is why Velen is confused and asks him, "You're not coming with us?" in the cutscene. Velen is surprised because him being there serves no purpose at all. This is just where he wants to be forever now. He's an immortal demon now, and he's choosing to live his immortality watching Sargeras' struggle for all eternity because that's what he wants to do.

[cparle87]

It still simply isn't the reason why he did it though. He didn't do it to save us, he did it because he wanted to. You're taking away from his character by making him out to be righteous. He isn't righteous, and he never has been. He's incredibly selfish. He does things the way he wants to because he thinks he's right. The plan was not for him to stay, and nobody asked him. This is why Velen is confused and asks him, "You're not coming with us?" in the cutscene. Velen is surprised because him being there serves no purpose at all. This is just where he wants to be forever now. He's an immortal demon now, and he's choosing to live his immortality watching Sargeras' struggle for all eternity because that's what he wants to do.

That's certainly one way to look at it, if you want to completely ignore all the character development we've learned about him this expansion.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

It was a re-match, and they had time to learn and adapt.
Look at sports:

• Nov 11 Auburn whups Georgia 40-17
• Dec 2 Georgia turns the tables 28-7

Never any guarantee the re-match will be a repeat of same results.

[cparle87]

It was a re-match, and they had time to learn and adapt.
Look at sports:

• Nov 11 Auburn whups Georgia 40-17
• Dec 2 Georgia turns the tables 28-7

Never any guarantee the re-match will be a repeat of same results.

Yeah, lots of time to plan and strategize when being constantly tortured for 25k+ years, to the point where one of you is already broken. Maybe Eonar did it.

[FelPlague]

In Chronicles he obliterated them, so how come we see them able to handle him after just recovering? Someone please explain.

because last time they were not prepared for a fight, he just suddenly lashed out.
also they have the power of the seat of the pantheon, and the power of argus this time.

[Aquamonkey]

Our lord and savior Illidan was there to hold their hands.

[ReVnX]

Argus' power

And note that this Titan, even when tormented, could cast this: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

AND YES, SINCE MYTHIC IS CANON, AND SENSE HE STILL CASTS THIS SHIT, I WILL CONFIRM THAT THIS IS BOTH A LORE SPELL, AS WELL AS A CANON SPELL!

Pretty sure that is just for dramatic effect. Not even Sargeras and the entire Burning Legion nor the Void Lords have such power

[Blamblam41]

That's certainly one way to look at it, if you want to completely ignore all the character development we've learned about him this expansion.

Was going to say, isn't being selfishly altruistic a bit of an oxymoron?

Illidan being selfish died with the book and the subsequent retcon of every selfish desire he ever had, because he was doing it 'for the good of Azeroth' even back when he was, you know, clearly not doing things for the good of Azeroth.

[Aquamonkey]

It still simply isn't the reason why he did it though. He didn't do it to save us, he did it because he wanted to. You're taking away from his character by making him out to be righteous. He isn't righteous, and he never has been. He's incredibly selfish. He does things the way he wants to because he thinks he's right.

Ummm...

Illidan: You wish to know the difference between the demons and us? They will stop at nothing to destroy our world.
Kor'vas: ... and we will sacrifice everything to save it.

"I sacrificed everything and in your ignorance you imprisoned those capable of saving our world."

[cparle87]

Was going to say, isn't being selfishly altruistic a bit of an oxymoron?

Illidan being selfish died with the book and the subsequent retcon of every selfish desire he ever had, because he was doing it 'for the good of Azeroth' even back when he was, you know, clearly not doing things for the good of Azeroth.

Does it even qualify as a retcon? To be a retcon you have to state something, and then at a later point say "No, that old thing isn't true anymore, this is how it happened." We didn't know anything about Illidan's motives in BC. Why he allied with the naga, why he drained Zangarmarsh, none of it. We arrived, fought fel orcs, arrived in Shattrath, and got told by A'dal that he was our enemy. Leaving the page blank and up to our imaginations to guess what he's thinking and what's motivating him, only to fill in the blanks even years later, isn't a retcon. Take Sargeras. We knew for years that he came to believe creation was fundamentally flawed and that it had to be destroyed and start over. It was only with Chronicles we were informed WHY he came to that conclusion. Same thing with Illidan. We knew WHAT he did, well, some of it. But not WHY he did it or what his purpose was.

As for the selfishly altruistic, it's totally possible. His chief goal was Tyrande's welfare. Protecting Azeroth protected her. He fights to save Azeroth so in turn he protects her, because she's important to him. His actions are altruistic, saving the whole world, his motive is selfish. If he could guarantee Tyrande's safety, but Azeroth burns, he might have done it.