Nonviable specs. Which are they?

[Hunterwep]

All are viable, since they will all bring some form of support to the group too.

We had all sort of specs in our guild and we were half way into clearing AQ40 before TBC hit.
Keep in mind, our raiding started a good year into Vanilla. Getting 40 people was hard enough, couldn't be too picky.
Min-maxing was not such a big deal since bosses did not have a hard enrage timer.

I have no experience in Naxx, but I could imagine it would have been more demanding.

TL;DR Play what you want, you'll clear AQ40. I speak from experience.

[Shibito]

Top tier hybrid specs
* Restoration (Druid)
* Holy (Paladin)
* Disc/Holy (Priest)
* Restoration (Shaman)
* Arms/Fury (Warrior)
* Protection (Warrior)

Viable hybrid specs
* Feral (Druid) - Viable is pushing it, they did worse DPS than Warriors and Rogues in melee and were worse tanks than a Warrior
* Shadow (Priest) - Did less damage than a Warlock and only provided a buff to themselves and warlocks and warlocks were only brought to provide COE and COR

Crap hybrid specs
* Balance (Druid)
* Protection (Paladin) They were brought but brought as a healer to provide a Blessing of Kings and Imp Conc Aura
* Retribution (Paladin)
* Elemental (Shaman)
* Enhancement (Shaman)
Crap Pure DPS Specs
Destruction Warlock - All specs took up to Ruin but Warlock were only brought to progression raiding to bring Curse of Elements and Curse of Recklessness to buff the melee
Demo Warlock - Only really here as a LOL 1V1 monster, no raiding
Survival Hunter - LOL Melee Hunter with the weakest end tier talent, or a Crappy CC that still did less damage than Marks. Marks was brought because they were the best at pulling trash and splitting packs
BM Hunter - A bunch of talents to buff a pet that did almost nothing unless you were using a bugged pet that was an exploit
Arcane Mage - Only for PVP as POM/Pyro

survival wasnt melee in vanilla its melee in legion.

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There is truly an awful lot that is wrong with this post.

Some really easy and quick examples:

DS/Ruin Warlocks are one of the strongest DPS classes by Naxx, behind the single Mage with the Ignite stack and keeping pace with Fury Warriors. Especially on Ally side with Salvation, since their DPS is literally only throttled by needing to regulate their threat. They are weaker early in Vanilla because they lack %Hit in their Talents like Mages, but once they acquire it they scale better.

Hunter DPS falls off dramatically after BWL and their poor scaling makes them one of the weakest DPS classes by 1.12.

Arms Warriors were rarely taken to raids due to the use of a debuff slot and the fact that DW Fury is dramatically more powerful - in fact an interesting part of Vanilla is that none of the best DPS specs actually use 2h weapons.

Combat Rogues go Sword spec. Daggers are sub-optimal in all respects due to weapon speeds and positioning requirements.

Fire Mages became a thing as soon as progression was past BWL as Frost is sub-optimal and only used to get over boss immunities. Also bear in mind that only one single Mage gets the DPS from the Ignite stack - your Mages essentially work in tandem to boost that individual's DPS.

that is false, combat dagger rises as one of the best rogue specs in vanilla

[Xecks]

And the path of least resistance is rolling a Warrior.

sure is. still other classes had roles all the same.

[Simulacrum]

...We had all sort of specs in our guild and we were half way into clearing AQ40 before TBC hit...

That's so bad I'm amazed you're not ashamed to admit it. People were pugging that by then. And there were plenty of enrage timers, both soft and hard. You're not being ironic, are you?

Anyway, all specs are definitely not viable in any meaningful sense of the word.

[Lolsteak]

survival wasnt melee in vanilla its melee in legion.

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that is false, combat dagger rises as one of the best rogue specs in vanilla

Survival was far more melee orientated than the other 2 trees even in Vanilla, with talents buffing things like Raptor Strike, Mongoose Bite and Parry.

[Soon-TM]

That's so bad I'm amazed you're not ashamed to admit it. People were pugging that by then. And there were plenty of enrage timers, both soft and hard. You're not being ironic, are you?

Anyway, all specs are definitely not viable in any meaningful sense of the word.

Wow champ, forgive the dude for not raiding Naxx, like 99% of the players back then. If anything, it proves that 1.11 and 1.12 buffed everyone by such a huge margin, that devs had to come out with an insane (for the time) raid like Naxx so that players could put those buffs to good use instead of steamrolling everything.

[Epoch]

that is false, combat dagger rises as one of the best rogue specs in vanilla

Actually no. Combat swords was the top dps spec for rogues during vanilla. If you managed to get full bloodfang with the zg sword set, or even cts as a rogue you were pretty much top dps if you knew how to play the spec. Later on with bonescythe (and possibly t2.5) it was rumored to change to daggers due to higher item level.

Around patch 1.12 there was also a pvp mace spec which basically made you unstoppable. Combine that with misplaced servo arm, or another good mace and either another rogue or warrior with the same weapon and you literally couldn't lose in pvp.

I recall using a combination of these two:
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fZhhVbbVtZxMjochRo
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fZGoVbbVx0cZxMjocbR

[Zandalarian Paladin]

But here's the thing, with the knowledge we have now, would it be possible to make specs that were previously non-viable... viable?

And I don't mean through balance. I mean directly from the classic gameplay, could be brainstorm a way to make a spec viable, given specific gear pieces and co?

[Epoch]

But here's the thing, with the knowledge we have now, would it be possible to make specs that were previously non-viable... viable?

And I don't mean through balance. I mean directly from the classic gameplay, could be brainstorm a way to make a spec viable, given specific gear pieces and co?

While the correctly itemized gear would help, it would still require changes to be made which would bring what some consider the nonviable specs up to par, these changes would result in what vanilla "purists" no longer consider to be "vanilla."

[potis]

But here's the thing, with the knowledge we have now, would it be possible to make specs that were previously non-viable... viable?

And I don't mean through balance. I mean directly from the classic gameplay, could be brainstorm a way to make a spec viable, given specific gear pieces and co?

Short answer, no.

Long answer, no, most of the specs arent viable for multiple reasons.

Also, not everything worked the same on every patch, people are crying dear murder that some specs are viable from private server experience which is 1.12, where most specs were changed to their playable--> 2.0.1 followed for TBC playstyle, something that ~2 years of Vanilla (More like 1.9 years and 1.5 years for EU) doesnt represent, 1.12 was only the last 3 months of Vanilla (December was 2.0.1 so 3.5 months of 1.12!), it isnt "Vanilla".

Or more accurately, 1.11/1.12 are most of the changes, so last 6 months of Vanilla in a sense is what people know from private servers.

Because of that, if they dont release 1.12 and do some "Timeline of old patches with bug fixes" like Weapon Swing multipliers and amount of debuffs, the game was completely different the first 10(7 for eu) months, and then completely different again, etc etc.

Basically first years/raids,it was Combat Dagger Rogues/Frost Mages/Hunters cause they could Feign Death in combat-->Drink-->Be viable, and many similar things, i cant really recall everything, Warlocks spamming Shadow Bolt were relevant too, hard gaming there, Curse-->Shadow Bolt spam , got fixed quickly too.

Secondary, lets assume they release 1.12 skills and talents to reflect some sensible balance, even with those changes, the non-viable class became 10% more viable, while the viable classes became x% more viable by the changes, making the non-viable specs irrelevant once again.

Thirdly, for most of these specs to become viable they require certain gimmicks and gear that will create an insane amount of drama for any sensible guild, since non-viable specs wear pieces they arent "supposed to" (easiest example is moonkins leeching cloth items).

And a few more things which i cba typing right now, you get the point i think by now.

[Chaelexi]

survival wasnt melee in vanilla its melee in legion.

They were not pure melee but they had thing that buffed raptor strike, melee weapon crit chance, hit chance and flat damage increase increase, improved mongoose bite, lacerate......yes survival was initially a melee spec..... it was not until 1.7 when they got the rework...... I am guessing you only played on Nost and not actual vanilla......

[jackofwind]

that is false, combat dagger rises as one of the best rogue specs in vanilla

You're completely wrong, and logs exist to prove it.

Even in Naxx combat swords was the better spec due to positional requirements on most fights other than Patchwerk unless you had 4p T3 which made combat daggers more viable due to the improved energy regen, and then only if you had Death's Sting from C'Thun because of the + Daggers skill.

That's a lot of situational requirements to make the spec as viable as combat swords.

[potis]

You're completely wrong, and logs exist to prove it.

Even in Naxx combat swords was the better spec due to positional requirements on most fights other than Patchwerk unless you had 4p T3 which made combat daggers more viable due to the improved energy regen, and then only if you had Death's Sting from C'Thun because of the + Daggers skill.

That's a lot of situational requirements to make the spec as viable as combat swords.

Stupid posts like these is why no one takes you guys seriously.

"Logs exist".

Private server 1.12 logs are a pile of shit compared to what actually happened in Vanilla, for the first year of Vanilla the only relevant spec for raids was Combat Dagger Rogues , unless you had a Rank 14 Weapon then you could be Combat Swords cause the power scale was insane.

This was happening because:

1)Swing timers werent fixed until August 2005 which meant 9 months/6 months for EU of every single rogue trying to farm Barman Shanker cause it was broken OP.

2)The only "Sword" that was available and scaled better than any existing dagger cause it was OP for its ilvl was Krol Blade, which became useless with the swing timer fixes too and guess what was easier to get, a 900 gold sword with not many actually existing, or spam BRD for an OP dagger that can 2 shot most other classes?

3)It wasnt until Fist Weapons/Swords in BWL started dropping and gear increasing till numbers became adequate to say "Oh now i dont have to be behind the boss, fuck Backstab, and can just spam Sinister"

4)It wasnt until Naxx changes were rogues also discovered "Well fuck, Hemo isnt that bad also with a Slow weapon!" and some specced into Hemo too for extra raid dps.

5)Thunderfury rogues appearing same time as BWL gear becoming relevant helped a lot with the switch too, anyone that didnt have Chrom Sword/Thunderfury stayed Combat Dagger till AQ gear levels pretty much.

Stop posting crap about a game you never actually played.

[jackofwind]

Stupid posts like these is why no one takes you guys seriously.

"Logs exist".

Private server 1.12 logs are a pile of shit compared to what actually happened in Vanilla, for the first year of Vanilla the only relevant spec for raids was Combat Dagger Rogues , unless you had a Rank 14 Weapon then you could be Combat Swords cause the power scale was insane.

This was happening because:

1)Swing timers werent fixed until August 2005 which meant 9 months/6 months for EU of every single rogue trying to farm Barman Shanker cause it was broken OP.

2)The only "Sword" that was available and scaled better than any existing dagger cause it was OP for its ilvl was Krol Blade, which became useless with the swing timer fixes too and guess what was easier to get, a 900 gold sword with not many actually existing, or spam BRD for an OP dagger that can 2 shot most other classes?

3)It wasnt until Fist Weapons/Swords in BWL started dropping and gear increasing till numbers became adequate to say "Oh now i dont have to be behind the boss, fuck Backstab, and can just spam Sinister"

4)It wasnt until Naxx changes were rogues also discovered "Well fuck, Hemo isnt that bad also with a Slow weapon!" and some specced into Hemo too for extra raid dps.

5)Thunderfury rogues appearing same time as BWL gear becoming relevant helped a lot with the switch too, anyone that didnt have Chrom Sword/Thunderfury stayed Combat Dagger till AQ gear levels pretty much.

Stop posting crap about a game you never actually played.

1.12 is the only relevant Vanilla that exists these days, and considering the post I was answering was specifically talking about late-Vanilla I was addressing it as such. No one even considered pre-BWL to be particularly relevant content in 2006, and Krol Blade was only relevant early on in the end-game.

PS: There are logs and meters from actual Vanilla, and you have no idea what games I've played.
PPS: WoW Classic will most likely by a 1.9/1.12 hybrid.

[potis]

1.12 is the only relevant Vanilla that exists these days, and considering the post I was answering was specifically talking about late-Vanilla I was addressing it as such. No one even considered pre-BWL to be particularly relevant content in 2006.
PS: There are logs and meters from actual Vanilla, and you have no idea what games I've played.
PPS: WoW Classic will most likely by a 1.9/1.12 hybrid.

Vanilla isnt 1.12 and Naxx, its around to 2 years of content.

Even so, most of my post is just for the usual people to appear and cry dear murder, not really anything against you.

Vanilla didnt have logs in the form of today considering if i recall combat log was so broken even in TBC and considering you had to manual sync till then, yeeeah, fun days.

[Kaver]

If you balance the classes it will ruin the game... but then Burning Crusade happened. Balanced classes but the game wasn't ruined... what kind of magic is this?!

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1.12 is the only relevant Vanilla that exists these days, and considering the post I was answering was specifically talking about late-Vanilla I was addressing it as such. No one even considered pre-BWL to be particularly relevant content in 2006, and Krol Blade was only relevant early on in the end-game.

PS: There are logs and meters from actual Vanilla, and you have no idea what games I've played.
PPS: WoW Classic will most likely by a 1.9/1.12 hybrid.

Clearing Molten Core after patch 1.12... wow that is going to be such a challenge! Hard mode!

[BuckSparkles]

They were not pure melee but they had thing that buffed raptor strike, melee weapon crit chance, hit chance and flat damage increase increase, improved mongoose bite, lacerate......yes survival was initially a melee spec..... it was not until 1.7 when they got the rework...... I am guessing you only played on Nost and not actual vanilla......

I once beat a rogue with a survival melee hunter in vanilla in a duel.

Once

But Survival was a meme spec in vanilla for bored people who wanted to screw around and make somebody go "wtf"

[jackofwind]

Clearing Molten Core after patch 1.12... wow that is going to be such a challenge! Hard mode!

You can clear MC with 30 people in dungeon blues who know what they're doing regardless of the patch.

[Lolsteak]

If you balance the classes it will ruin the game... but then Burning Crusade happened. Balanced classes but the game wasn't ruined... what kind of magic is this?!

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Clearing Molten Core after patch 1.12... wow that is going to be such a challenge! Hard mode!

People speedrun MC regardless of the patch, It's not a challenge

[Kaver]

You can clear MC with 30 people in dungeon blues who know what they're doing regardless of the patch.

Great argument. Let's just make all the bosses soloable then!

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People speedrun MC regardless of the patch, It's not a challenge

Great argument. Let's just make all the bosses soloable then!