Why do Vereesa and Alleria hate their own people?

[Mehrunes]

It's a very long reach to equate Khadgar and Turalyon worry about Alleria loosing herself to vengeance with being okay with the orcs and the horde and just be all ready to share the same diner table and be by gones be by gones, dear lord. Well, Khadgar can do that because he's literally the best.

You can call Alleria and Turalyon shortsighted all you want, but you have to be ready to say that for everyone willing to take a side on the faction war.

I like how you completely ommitted the part about her losing her hatred of Orcs in that book of @Kallisto's post, which coincidentally runs contrary to your previous one. Something something

that is incredibly disingenuous and just soaked with bias.

What would there be to gain from talking with her people? So she can learn all about how they joined the orcs (who she hates) and trolls (who she also hates) and willingly took on demonic energies? (which she, boyo, also hates)

Her hatred ran out in Beyond the Dark Portal, she hates the Amani who aren't even the same race as the Darkspear, let alone the same tribe and not only did the Blood Elves in Quel'thalas not take demonic energies, but given her dabbling in the void for pragmatic reason she would have been able to understand them even if they did.

Meanwhile the Alliance is comprised of humans and dwarves who she's extensively fought alongside AND the remains of the uncorrupted high-elves, as well as the draenei who she's also been fighting alongside for thousands of years.

Aside from Turalyon, she "extensively" fought alongside humans and Dwarves for 2-3 years. As opposed to around three thousands of years with her people in Quel'thalas.

So let's see... it's races and powers that have shown her nothing but grief and destruction, versus races she's fought alongside for thousands of years.

Tough choice hmmm

When you dishonestly ignore three times as many years that she fought with the people of Quel'thalas, then sure.

The orcs were agents of the legion (let alone the shit garosh pulled) and blood elves indulged in fel energy.

Meanwhile, the alliance is a band of races she trusts and has fought alongside and she likely supports the guy leading them.

The Orcs then freed themselves from Legion control, helped in saving Azeroth during the Third War against the very same Legion, as well as fought it on numerous other occasions later on.

Because the High Elves and Blood Elves had opposing views as to how to deal with a nationwide problem. This is how the culture split. Given Alleria's loyalty and experiences in the first two wars, the thousand years war she fought against fel fuelled demons, how she and the other Elves on Draenor/Outland handled being separated from the Sunwell, the loss of her family, and the fact that her last two living relatives Vareesa and Arator are on the the High Elf / Alliance side - it's not hard to see why she picked the side she did.

Alleria didn't fight in the First War. And given her being absent during the High Elf-Blood Elf split, it's rather meaningless to project the stances of High Elves during that debacle onto Alleria. In the thousand years she was fighting the Legion she showed more of the pragmatism and "the end justifies the means" mentality of Blood Elves rather than "lel morals above all" of High Elves.

Alleria going to Silvermoon to try and sway Lorthemar shows that she doesnt hate her people. But succumbing to the Fel, draining a Naaru and joining the Horde have taken them in a very different direction. Not in an evil or bad one, but one that makes them different enough from the people she left behind. It makes sense why she sees the High Elves as her home and her true kin.

Out of all people in Warcraft you think it's Alleria that'd have any issue with someone draining a darkened Naaru? Also, aside from Blood Elves not succumbing to Fel, she succumbed to an even worse power and had no problem with Kerrilldank whatsoever.

Actually, if you want to get technical, Arthas was closer to a Forsaken than a human at the time he attacked the Elves.

He was closer to a group that didn't even exist until after he sacked Quel'thalas and one that was created with the purpose of rebelling against him?

It still doesn't mean she has to be Anduin's mouthpiece, don't know how many times I have to mention that.

When interacting with a deliberately obtuse individual, the answer to a question like this oscillates around "infinite"

[Deleted]

I don't know much about Vereesa since I wasn't playing in MoP, but I assume Blizzard has written her terribly judging from how bad people talk about her. What happened or what is it with Vereesa that people hate/dislike? Also, is it too late for Vereesa to turn into a good/better character?

[Nekosom]

It's so cute that Hordies still pretend they're not the bad guys. Like, what more does the Horde have to do before you stop pretending that other than the "greater goods" that ensure their survival, they've been irredeemably evil. Why can't Hordies just accept that they're the bad guys and just embrace it? Sylvanas is comically evil.

To be fair, Blizzard has always tried to have it both ways with the Horde. They try to balance out good and evil acts by the Horde to portray them as a shade of gray, but wind up just going from one extreme to the other depending on the story, with no subtlety. And their attempts to portray the Alliance as anything other than pure good is pathetically awful.

I don't know much about Vereesa since I wasn't playing in MoP, but I assume Blizzard has written her terribly judging from how bad people talk about her. What happened or what is it with Vereesa that people hate/dislike? Also, is it too late for Vereesa to turn into a good/better character?

Vereesa, like Rhonin, is a product of Richard Knaack. A third Windrunner sister invented from whole cloth to be a stand-in for Alleria, right down to the human husband. And like most Knaack characters, her character is terribly written with poorly defined motivations. She's been a better character since Rhonin's death, because she has some actual motivation for her Horde/Blood Elf hatred, but she's still pretty roundly rejected. And now with Alleria back, she serves no purpose. So I think most are just hoping she dies soon.

[Kiri]

The Orcs then freed themselves from Legion control, helped in saving Azeroth during the Third War against the very same Legion, as well as fought it on numerous other occasions later on.

Since you brought up the redemption of the Horde, there is one thing I don't really understand regarding the bloodelf dynamic.
On one hand, people say that blood elves have no problem with the Darkspear trolls, since that is a different sub group of trolls than the Amari that hurt the elves, but Garithos' treatment of elves is still cited as a reason as to why they should not make nice with the Alliance. Similar thing with the Orcs. They redeemed themselves from the legion and Garrosh is seen as a bad apple of sorts, but the purge of Dalaran is somehow completely unforgivable. Can't we all just agree that the lore is A) a mess and B) written that way to support gameplay, which just necessitated the Blood elves to be Horde and forever stay there?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I like how you completely ommitted the part about her losing her hatred of Orcs in that book of @Kallisto's post, which coincidentally runs contrary to your previous one. Something something

Seriously, context, you should try it! The point of Alleria's arc in BtDP is her dealing with her grief, and how that inability sends her on a self destructive spiral of revenge.

But you two chose to interpret the "without hatred on her heart" as somehow forgiving the orcs instead of the self realization of moving forward it actually is. I'm not sure how you can with a straight face make the argument that this somehow would make Alleria okay with her kin joining the horde.

That she doesn't want to kill every orc on sight is good for her, but to expect this lack of "hatred on her heart" means she has or even should let go of the resentment caused by the murdering of her whole family is all kinds of moronic.

I'm seriously Mehrunes, all you do in here is decontextualize and nitpick information without looking at themes, arcs, narrative, anything.

[Mehrunes]

Since you brought up the redemption of the Horde, there is one thing I don't really understand regarding the bloodelf dynamic.
On one hand, people say that blood elves have no problem with the Darkspear trolls, since that is a different sub group of trolls than the Amari that hurt the elves, but Garithos' treatment of elves is still cited as a reason as to why they should not make nice with the Alliance. Similar thing with the Orcs. They redeemed themselves from the legion and Garrosh is seen as a bad apple of sorts, but the purge of Dalaran is somehow completely unforgivable. Can't we all just agree that the lore is A) a mess and B) written that way to support gameplay, which just necessitated the Blood elves to be Horde and forever stay there?

And what has the Alliance done since the Purge to redeem themselves for the Blood Elves? Or after Garithos? Because the first interaction between the Alliance and Quel'thalas after Garithos debacle was the Alliance sending saboteurs and spies to Eversong Woods and an invasion force to Ghostlands while pretending to engage in diplomatic talks with them. Horde on the other hand sent crucial help to Tranquillien and helped them kill the greatest traitor in their history.

[Kiri]

And what has the Alliance done since the Purge to redeem themselves for the Blood Elves? Or after Garithos? Because the first interaction between the Alliance and Quel'thalas after Garithos debacle was the Alliance sending saboteurs and spies to Eversong Woods and an invasion force to Ghostlands while pretending to engage in diplomatic talks with them. Horde on the other hand sent crucial help to Tranquillien and helped them kill the greatest traitor in their history.

Since the whole Eversong Woods/Ghostlands thing goes completely unacknowledged by Alliance quest lines, it is hard to tell what precisely was going on there. It certainly did not befit most of the leaders at the time to conjure a conflict out of nothing, outside of Staglhelm, who was pretty much the Alliance's mini Garrosh. Given that said force mostly consisted of Nightelves, that is certainly possible, making it unlikely that anyone in the Alliance was actually informed of it. The first time alliance characters were officially sent to the Ghostlands was in order to assist the blood elves against the Amani.
But again, what you said is precisely what I was getting at. The fel horde was not the new horde, the new alliance was not the current alliance. Yet, for some reason, Garithos' actions are seen as worse than the orcs', Jaina's/whoever sent the sentinel's worse than Garrosh's. Why is that? The orcs did not send assistance to the Ghostlands, Undercity did. Yet Orcs are seen as more friendly than humans, for example.

[Pendraeg]

He was closer to a group that didn't even exist until after he sacked Quel'thalas and one that was created with the purpose of rebelling against him?

Closer. By the time he attacked Quel'thalas, he was very obviously no longer human.

[ello]

Because, "joining hands to beat a world-ending threat with reverse plot armor" is blizzard's story telling.

It's the same story blizzard has been telling since WC3, and it's the same story Blizzard even turned Starcraft into.

Sure, but faction war is also blizzard storytelling. They've been doing it since the 90s!

Really though, I understand the reservations people have about the faction war, and I don't think Blizz has done a good job of writing it since Cata. But the idea of WoW without two factions that hate each other just feels wrong to me.

[Deleted]

I mean, the reason I haven't referred to it it's because it's a silly complaint, cause the whole reason she's bringing him up is to show the blood elves she brings an official proposal, not just a wish and a prayer.

I have already underlined the reasons why Alleria so heavily dislikes that her kin allied with the horde and why she sees belonging to the alliance as the better choice, yet you continue to dismiss her actions to these regards as being "Anduin's mouthpiece" and that is incredibly disingenuous and just soaked with bias.

How is biased? It's literally what she does when arriving Silvermoon, her homeland. Not "How are you guys?" or "Explain to me why you joined the Horde?". Literally "I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--".

Seriously, how is that biased? Pre-Cataclysm Jaina was able to do it all the time, but the indepedent Alleria can't?

[Thage]

Well, I mean.

/gestures grandly at all the shit humans do to each other in the real world

[Kallisto]

Since the whole Eversong Woods/Ghostlands thing goes completely unacknowledged by Alliance quest lines, it is hard to tell what precisely was going on there. It certainly did not befit most of the leaders at the time to conjure a conflict out of nothing, outside of Staglhelm, who was pretty much the Alliance's mini Garrosh. Given that said force mostly consisted of Nightelves, that is certainly possible, making it unlikely that anyone in the Alliance was actually informed of it. The first time alliance characters were officially sent to the Ghostlands was in order to assist the blood elves against the Amani.
But again, what you said is precisely what I was getting at. The fel horde was not the new horde, the new alliance was not the current alliance. Yet, for some reason, Garithos' actions are seen as worse than the orcs', Jaina's/whoever sent the sentinel's worse than Garrosh's. Why is that? The orcs did not send assistance to the Ghostlands, Undercity did. Yet Orcs are seen as more friendly than humans, for example.

But that wouldn't make sense since there was a dwarf there under orders from the alliance to pretend to be an ambassador and sabotage what were the best and really only guarantee to keep Quel'thalas safe from the scourge. It wasn't just some night elf thing it was a multi racial alliance attack on the core defensive towers of a neutral power.

Thing we seem to forget in modern wow is that Blizzard in the early days were actually trying to portray the Horde as sympathetic groups who some had a bad history trying to survive in a world that hates them. With the Alliance being mostly those set with their old prejudices and were the aggressors not letting go of old hatreds. They were supposed to be the darker of the two, but Blizzard fell into humans good cliche later on.

[Melsiren]

Sure, but faction war is also blizzard storytelling. They've been doing it since the 90s!

Really though, I understand the reservations people have about the faction war, and I don't think Blizz has done a good job of writing it since Cata. But the idea of WoW without two factions that hate each other just feels wrong to me.

Meh, Blizzard never really defined Warcraft until WC3, even when it comes down to WC1 and WC2 most of the "lore" for those games happened retroactively in novels.
Hell, there's even reason to believe that WC1 was meant to be a warhammer game but that's another subject all togother.

The only time the faction war felt right to me was Cata to MoP Pre-Darkspear uprising, no time before or after ever felt right or good story telling to me. Don't get me wrong when done right Faction conflict is great, I remain unconvinced I will ever be satisfied with a faction conflict ever again.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

How is biased? It's literally what she does when arriving Silvermoon, her homeland. Not "How are you guys?" or "Explain to me why you joined the Horde?". Literally "I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--".

Seriously, how is that biased? Pre-Cataclysm Jaina was able to do it all the time, but the indepedent Alleria can't?

Okay, do you know what a mouthpiece even is?

Again, the whole point is that Alleria has her own agenda in regards to her people, that she brings Anduin's offer is subservient to her own reasons.

It's okay to have issues about how Alleria brought things up, perhaps naively thinking the Blood Elves would jump at the opportunity to change sides, or perhaps arrogantly believing they would immediately see things her way. It was not politically savy.

Yet again, that does not make her a "mouthpiece". If you are going to make a point, be precise about what you mean, and don't be surprised to be called on your bias when you use inherently biased language.

[Deleted]

Sure, but faction war is also blizzard storytelling. They've been doing it since the 90s!

Really though, I understand the reservations people have about the faction war, and I don't think Blizz has done a good job of writing it since Cata. But the idea of WoW without two factions that hate each other just feels wrong to me.

Blizzard has done a terrible job of writing the faction war since Vanilla. None of it was consistent with any of the storytelling from Warcraft III. Lore contradictions have been piling up ever since, and it gets worse with every attempt to salvage the story. Blizzard's writing has really dug itselves into a hole that it can't get out of anymore.

[Deleted]

Okay, do you know what a mouthpiece even is?

Again, the whole point is that Alleria has her own agenda in regards to her people, that she brings Anduin's offer is subservient to her own reasons.

It's okay to have issues about how Alleria brought things up, perhaps naively thinking the Blood Elves would jump at the opportunity to change sides, or perhaps arrogantly believing they would immediately see things her way. It was not politically savy.

Yet again, that does not make her a "mouthpiece". If you are going to make a point, be precise about what you mean, and don't be surprised to be called on your bias when you use inherently biased language.

What a mouthpiece is? "I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--".

And before you throw again the "you are biased" BS argument, I prefer when my Alliance characters aren't human lapdogs. So, you can stop with that argument and understand that it's perfectly fine to be part of the Alliance without promoting it or insulting the other side.

[Kiri]

But that wouldn't make sense since there was a dwarf there under orders from the alliance to pretend to be an ambassador and sabotage what were the best and really only guarantee to keep Quel'thalas safe from the scourge. It wasn't just some night elf thing it was a multi racial alliance attack on the core defensive towers of a neutral power.

Thing we seem to forget in modern wow is that Blizzard in the early days were actually trying to portray the Horde as sympathetic groups who some had a bad history trying to survive in a world that hates them. With the Alliance being mostly those set with their old prejudices and were the aggressors not letting go of old hatreds. They were supposed to be the darker of the two, but Blizzard fell into humans good cliche later on.

Well, there was one dwarf and Magni of all people does not seem like the kind of person who would send a saboteur. Of the vanilla alliance leaders he was always the one closest to the good king stereotype and lacked the internal struggles of the other powers, blind eye for Moira notwithstanding. But as I said, the whole of those two zones was written with the very intention to have the blood elves join the horde, so there is no actual involvement or even reference to it on the alliance side.

I would not say that people forgot what you mean there, though. Just look at this thread. There are a lot of people who see the alliance and horde like that today and do not buy into what happened later on, which only made things look more extreme. It is certainly not helped by the fact that the horde is still betrayed like that in non-garroshian times, especially when you look at Thrall's tenure. The whole faction and faction war system is propped up by plot devices like the Ghostlands thing above, Garrosh, Sylvanas' blind eye regarding Varimathras, the purge, etc. I mean, we had multiple years with Thrall in charge of the horde, who clearly is not a warmonger, but we still needed to somehow keep PvP alive, so he just did not care about the massive battles in Alterac Valley, Outland or Winterspring.

[Melsiren]

What a mouthpiece is? "I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--".

And before you throw again the "you are biased" BS argument, I prefer when my Alliance characters aren't human lapdogs. So, you can stop with that argument and understand that it's perfectly fine to be part of the Alliance without promoting it or insulting the other side.

Woah bro, you either are "For the horde" tarded or, "For the Alliance" tarded, you can't be in between that's a clear sign of being biased, you're with me or against me.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

What a mouthpiece is? "I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--".

Okay, you don't really know what mouthpiece is; should have known.

Okay let's just do wikipedia cause it's the easiest way.

"Figuratively and with negative connotations to indicate the role of a spokesperson or mass media venue that is used to perpetuate the views or agenda of another, as in "the newspaper became a mouthpiece for its owner's political views."

Like, it's a literally biased word.

And before you throw again the "you are biased" BS argument, I prefer when my Alliance characters aren't human lapdogs. So, you can stop with that argument and understand that it's perfectly fine to be part of the Alliance without promoting it or insulting the other side.

Could you even explain how characterizing Alleria as a "human lapdog" is not inherently biased? It's just you literally using your own subjective interpretation to define her on the most negative light, you have no intention of even attempt to be objective about her possible motivations. That. is. literally. bias.

And again, Alleria's whole motivation to meet with Lor'themar comes from her distaste of the Blood Elves joining the horde. The whole point is that she doesn't want her people to be on the horde.

God grief, that Alleria is biased on her perceptions doesn't mean you have to, if there's anything we are trying to do here, is to try to see things objectively. And dismissing Alleria's characterization as being an alliance lapdog mouthpiece is the farthest from it.

[Mehrunes]

Since the whole Eversong Woods/Ghostlands thing goes completely unacknowledged by Alliance quest lines, it is hard to tell what precisely was going on there. It certainly did not befit most of the leaders at the time to conjure a conflict out of nothing, outside of Staglhelm, who was pretty much the Alliance's mini Garrosh. Given that said force mostly consisted of Nightelves, that is certainly possible, making it unlikely that anyone in the Alliance was actually informed of it. The first time alliance characters were officially sent to the Ghostlands was in order to assist the blood elves against the Amani.

The ambassador was a Dwarf. And why would it need to be addressed in Alliance quests? It's faction exclusive zone in an expansion that treated story as a tertiary concern. It not being referenced elsewhere says nothing.

But again, what you said is precisely what I was getting at. The fel horde was not the new horde, the new alliance was not the current alliance. Yet, for some reason, Garithos' actions are seen as worse than the orcs', Jaina's/whoever sent the sentinel's worse than Garrosh's. Why is that? The orcs did not send assistance to the Ghostlands, Undercity did. Yet Orcs are seen as more friendly than humans, for example.

The Alliance is the exact same, it only changed the name since Lordaeron was no longer a part of it. And who said Garithos' actions are worse? You're conjuring the double standard you want to complain about all on your own. But if you insist, random alien Orcs juiced on demon blood appearing for a year and waging war, while a hostile activity, may be seen as less bad for long term relations than their own allies backstabbing them. That aside, the main point is that the Horde tried another approach while the Alliance kept kicking them while they were down. As evidenced by Blood Elves being in talks with both factions, they weren't gung-ho about the Orcs, they were forced to pick the Horde after Alliance fucked with them. Alliance fucking with them is explicitly mentioned in the finale of their starting questline.