"go play retail then" is getting old

[Pivotal]

Things like Dual spec were created because it just replaced hearthing, going to the respec vendor, clicking all your talents, setting up your hotbars, getting your gear from the bank, then running back. All while 39 other people waiting for you. It's not that dual spec fundamentally changed what was going on once you got back to the raid; it simply cut out all the bullshit in-between.
.

This type of thinking is exactly what created WoW as it is today tbh. This basically says they added Dual-spec to save time/gold or whatever, which is nice and all, but think about it; almost every QoL change was made to save time and or make the game easier to access.
LFG/R was introduced so players didn't have to make the effort of forming the groups or traveling there. Quest tracker was added so that players didn't have to read quest texts/go thottbot.
Mob health (while getting fixed in next patch) has been nerfed to the ground so hard that the thought of actually dying to a normal mob is non-existant anymore.

So while these changes made wow easier to cope with, it's what made Wow... not wow for all the vanilla enthusiasts. It's supposed to take much longer kill mobs, get to 60, get gear/gold, forming groups, getting your first mount. It adds a much greater feeling once you actually got it. Also, the social aspect was much greater back then.

Also: Complaining things took too long time because now you have a life? Well, I suppose it's not for you then. It's supposed to be a bit more hardcore.

[Protean]

Got proof of this?

Because blizzard has said different many times, Raiding and raiding related shit has always been a minority.

There was no meaningful distinction between raiding and dungeons in Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Our argument is that there is absolutely no way they can be the same. And the moment you say "close enough" we're just talking about different tolerances to changes.


Just playing with a multi-button mouse, on a 4k/HD monitor, or with good internet is going to make your experience vastly different.

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They never said that.

Multi-button mouses existed in 2004. You could get 8 button mouses easily.

I don't know who you think you're fooling, when you play an old game like Age of Mythology it feels just like it did when you had a CRT monitor and 128mhz cpu once you start playing.

[Hitei]

They HAVE however, said that they want the experience "As close to vanilla as possible."

So it's highly, highly unlikely that you're getting it different.

They've also said Vanilla "means some inconveniences and some of the rough edges."

Multi-button mouses existed in 2004. You could get 8 button mouses easily.

I don't know who you think you're fooling, when you play an old game like Age of Mythology it feels just like it did when you had a CRT monitor and 128mhz cpu once you start playing.

A really poor comparison. Age of Mythology ran well. For most people any activity involving more than a dozen people casting spells (read: Raiding, BGs) was low FPS and spell delays. Having steady 60-120 FPS and zero input lag is a completely different experience.

8 second Living Bomb with lag and low FPS = potentially a hazard.
8 second Living Bomb with 90 FPS and 10ms delay = a joke.

[Protean]

They HAVE however, said that they want the experience "As close to vanilla as possible."

So it's highly, highly unlikely that you're getting it different.

They said that to shut up the babies already whining that Classic will suck. Little did they know those little shits just turned on each other and 'retailers'. There is no way to remove toxic, only redirect it.

[Deleted]

They've also said Vanilla "means some inconveniences and some of the rough edges."




A really poor comparison. Age of Mythology ran well. For most people any activity involving more than a dozen people casting spells (read: Raiding, BGs) was low FPS and spell delays. Having steady 60-120 FPS and zero input lag is a completely different experience.

8 second Living Bomb with lag and low FPS = potentially a hazard.
8 second Living Bomb with 90 FPS and 10ms delay = a joke.

WoW was aimed at people with low end PCs even in 2004 so when things went closer to the high end cpu wise the mainstream audience stood out sure. Not everyone was a teenage kid with a family PC and excluding Thaddius in Naxxramas fps wasn't an issue for hard-core players.

[Hitei]

Which takes a lot of reaching to say what you want it to say.

It means "Yes, Vanilla had inconveniences, and it still will." Reading it any other way is a far reach at best.

How is it reaching? That is exactly what it says.

"The new Karazhan will have some of the bosses the old one had."

Does this mean Karazhan had bosses, and the new one will have those exact same bosses?
Or does it mean that some of the bosses will be the ones it had, but not all of them?

Your read of those words are ignoring basic English.. "some of the rough edges" means not all of them. Hell, Vanilla itself removed a bunch of them, which is what makes this whole "Vanilla must be identical!" nonsense so laughable.

WoW was aimed at people with low end PCs even in 2004 so when things went closer to the high end cpu wise the mainstream audience stood out sure. Not everyone was a teenage kid with a family PC and excluding Thaddius in Naxxramas fps wasn't an issue for hard-core players.

Wow was very poorly optimized when it came to large groups of players. I was a teenage kid WITH a high end PC, and AV battles, World PvP raids and raids still drastically lowered FPS and response time.

[Protean]

Which takes a lot of reaching to say what you want it to say.

It means "Yes, Vanilla had inconveniences, and it still will." Reading it any other way is a far reach at best.



And yet it was still said. Which is more than can be said of you crying for a changed Vanilla.

I played Vanilla. It was OK. I don't need to play the exact same game twice, it can live with any changes they made because they don't detract from my experience back then.


If you had asked me in Vanilla what was integral to my experience I sure as hell wouldn't have answered "lack of dualspec, poorly optimized class items and looking like a clown when wearing optimal gear"

[Deleted]

Was poorly optimized? It's just as bad today so I'm really struggling to understand the level of pedantics its getting to.

It doesn't change the fact that in a raid circumstance, unless you had no clue about game settings you could maintain a steady fps all the way up to a couple bosses in AQ/Naxx.

[Spiral Mage]

Classic Server is Classic Server.
If you want modern QOL improvements: "Go play retail".
Simple.

You wanted the original experience in all it's glory, well .. don't say "But with .." then.

[Sticky]

...you are smoking some OG Kush.

This is actually a very disappointing strain...

[Waytomoo]

Classic does mean classic. There should be nothing that actually affects gameplay or world. Dual spec and AoE looting both directly affects the game. You dont have to spend so much time farming because aoe looting makes it faster and dual spec makes you spend less.

However, even though I am against every gameplay/world/mechanics affecting changes, I think updated graphics could be there, toggleable but definately could be there. Much like SC remastered which kept true to the old game by keeping stuff like limited unit control, old unit pathfinding and even stuff like drone drilling etc, they still updated the graphics and made it run smooth on modern pc. (The game has also toggle for graphics.)

As long as there aint any mechanical or gameplay related changes I am happy If the change affects other ppl than just self its usually a bad one in the context of creating classic servers.

[Speaknoevil]

It's pretty annoying that the smallest features means you're a retail scrub. Is there any room for a nuanced view of the issues?

aoe looting won't break the game
dual spec won't break the game


I MEAN DO YOU EXPECT BLIZZARD TECHS TO START DOING LOOT ERROR TICKETS MANUALLY AGAIN? I GUARANTEE THEY'LL ADD THE 2 HOUR LOOT TRADING WINDOW. JUST SAYIN

And all of you want a slightly different pick of new features.

The reality is most of you don't actually want WoW Classic and you should be playing retail.

[Volardelis]

Dual spec breaks spec identity. That's not Classic.

Spec identity in classic? Wasn't vanilla just "Play X spec or get lost noob!"

[Veyne]

Actually I'm not one of the people who asked for Classic (in fact I was one of the 'its never gonna happen STFU about it' types)

But now that it is being made, it needs to be what people want. Which is classic WoW. If you think that is 'old junk' then by all means continue to play retail.

Except literally all of the people asking for classic servers are asking for different things. There is no solid foundation. Classic servers will likely fail because there is legitimately no unified, unanimous agreement of what the classic servers should be. It is extremely fragmented.

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WE don't get a second chance, because if Modified Classic fails, it'll be used as an excuse to never give real Classic.

And if "True" Classic fails, it'll be used as an excuse to never give modified Classic.

[IIamaKing]

This is actually a very disappointing strain...

It just worked for the line.

[Veyne]

There was no meaningful distinction between raiding and dungeons in Vanilla.

Are you high? Can you give me some of what you're smoking?

[hulkgor]

lol, such asinine logic.

The real analogy if you use icecream:

Purists: "oh man I love plain chocolate ice cream, but I have to eat it with my hands! It makes my hands sticky, and cold, and its a mess, but I sure do love plain chocolate ice cream!!"

Minor QoL "Classic+" People: "here's a bowl to put your plain chocolate ice cream in, it will make eating your ice cream much more enjoyable and you wont have a mess on your hands"

Purists: "No i want to eat it the exact same way I used to... with my hands!!! There is no other way to eat plain chocolate ice cream"

Minor QoL "Classic+" People (thought bubble): "fucking idiot, use a bowl like a sane human being."

Minor QoL "Classic+" People: "but using a bowl is cleaner, it keeps your chocolate ice cream from getting everywhere and making your hands sticky, and your hands won't get cold from holding the ice cream in them"

Purists: "No if i'm not eating it out of my hand, then its not plain chocolate ice cream!"

Minor QoL "Classic+" People: "/facepalm"

What an absolute pile of dung you wrote there.

[Deleted]

Spec identity in classic? Wasn't vanilla just "Play X spec or get lost noob!"

Well no. If you're the type of person who wants to raid, you're generally a team-oriented person. So you'd willingly choose the best spec for your team if it's an option for you. And if you're a dps class? You would have naturally chosen the best talents anyway.

And when it comes to the rest of the games content which makes up the majority, all specs can be played to enjoyment and have a unique feel.

[Hitei]

What an absolute pile of dung you wrote there.

It is highly accurate.