explain me why Raddon it's better then Shoulders in ST

[nicola87]

hello guys!

i don't have the head yet and i'm currently running ring+ shoulders. Except that the tier set bonuses are better with Raddon, why it's better then shoulders in ST? you will have more "burst phases" but many times like Imonar you want to have the big CD when you need it...and in term of cd reduction Raddon in ST will gain you how many seconds? like 1 orb (5 seconds) or more?

thanks

[Deleted]

You dont understand that this set isnt for bursting.... the reason behind t21 is that you have less burst but higher sustain dps uptime
That means you want to get a lot of eye beams out for the demonic proc

And yes the shoulders give you a faster meta bla bla
You want to use eye beam for the proc of 4p

[nicola87]

You dont understand that this set isnt for bursting.... the reason behind t21 is that you have less burst but higher sustain dps uptime
That means you want to get a lot of eye beams out for the demonic proc

And yes the shoulders give you a faster meta bla bla
You want to use eye beam for the proc of 4p

i mean "mini brust pahse"

[Happyducky]

As always, just sim yourself. The shoulders + ring actually sim higher for me than helm+ ring for St

[Thraps]

Lego helm gives you more meta uptime than shoulders with T21. Thats why its better than shoulders. What you have to remember is when using demonic build you need to do the wiggle regularly to make sure your picking up all fragments to reduce the cd.

[Rezark]

What's "best" can only ever be applied to 100% perfectly optimized toons, until you hit that point you should be relying on sims and performance.

[Not Againnn]

because there are situations where u can reset eye beam within the demonic meta uptime. more eye beams=more meta with 4pc haste.

raddons allows this to happen a lot because each add hit reduces the cooldown by .45 seconds IF they stand in the beam for the full channel. only need a handful of souls after to fully reset the cd, which you could get fairly easily if you spam cs after your eye beam

[Deleted]

Because your big CD isn't actually that strong compared to more short metas with even more haste and a full fury bar each time you enter a short meta. Then again, sim what's best for you on ST.

[Tr1n1ty]

It's maginal and only with the "template" gear, sim it for yourself, IF there is only one target for the whole fight it might be the Shoulders sim higher for you, on short fights where you can insert a second meta it will prolly even be stronger (not much tho) then Shoulders

[Yuqii]

Download Simulationcraft addon - https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/...rojectID=82745

And go to raidbots.com - https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear

You type /simc in game and it opens window that you can copy paste from with your toons talents, gear, etc. You paste it in and it tells you what your highest DPS gear is, couldn't be simpler.

[Lostprophet]

For pure ST, helm & Shoulder are on par. It then depends on your offpieces.. (sim it)
On fights with adds, helm wins.

[Zilthy]

For me Raddons and Delusions sim very close, easily within the realm of RNG.

What made shoulders so strong was not just getting an extra meta, but the fact that every time chaos blades and nemesis was up, so was meta. Popping the 2nd old war on one of those combos for a total of 2 made it even more powerful. Without chaos blades, and using prolonged power, the shoulders just are not as strong, and are on even ground with Raddons. Both will end up being close, I prefer Raddons for consistency most of the time.

As someone mentioned, helm will pull ahead on fights with adds. But keep in mind, what is your role in the fight? Portal Keeper, if your down, Raddons is for sure better. But, if you have to go up, shoulders could be better if you line up your metas with the portal bosses. Same for Kin'Garoth, you can line meta up with the adds. And sure, you might not parse as well in those cases, but you can go a long way for making the fight easier on the raid.

So just something else to keep in mind, instead of which is 'better' on only a pure DPS standpoint.

[nicola87]

I have noticed that in ST the 2 leg are almost the same..SIM and a bunch of test raid prove it.

Basically in ST the reduction of the eye is 5 seconds-per eye beam. thats a bit odd considering that it's the reduction you gain from a single sphere... The reduction of the shoulders is like 1.3 minutes every 3.5 of the Meta..so a larger reduction! And in a bunch of fight light Imonar the valuse is even greater cause you can use the Meta cd on every platform he runs..

[Synthium]

Basically, on PURE single target, you still get 3 seconds EB cooldown reduction, which during the course of a 5-6 minute fight (or even longer in some cases), accounts for like 2-3 more eye beams, which translate to 16-24 seconds of additional demonform. And they pull ahead by a huge margin as soon as you get adds into the equation, which a lot of fights have.

So in short - Helm is around the same as shoulders when there is only one target during the entire fight, and tons better when there are adds of ANY kind. Even if they are trivial and not a priority, they still help get better uptime on the proper target (example: Eonar fight - destructor + tons of small dog spawn - > you eye beam the dogs and make sure you can have 100% demon form uptime hitting the destructor).

[Deleted]

Depends on your relics also. If you don’t have any Unleashed Demons one, then its almost impossible to sync meta with nemesis.
I’m currently having 3x crit chaos and 3x chaos vision so for me head is better.
Shoulders are being used when you can pop meta and nemesis on CD every time.

Ofc this is related to single target only. For AOE/cleave there is no other choice than head.

[mauserr]

Basically, on PURE single target, you still get 3 seconds EB cooldown reduction, which during the course of a 5-6 minute fight (or even longer in some cases), accounts for like 2-3 more eye beams, which translate to 16-24 seconds of additional demonform. And they pull ahead by a huge margin as soon as you get adds into the equation, which a lot of fights have.

So in short - Helm is around the same as shoulders when there is only one target during the entire fight, and tons better when there are adds of ANY kind. Even if they are trivial and not a priority, they still help get better uptime on the proper target (example: Eonar fight - destructor + tons of small dog spawn - > you eye beam the dogs and make sure you can have 100% demon form uptime hitting the destructor).

Exactly - there is also the element of increased Eye Beam damage due to the set bonus, so the more casts of Eye Beam you can put, the better the set pulls ahead, more reduction, more damage per cast, more casts... a delicious loop of damage and meta uptime :3

[Jaewalk]

I sim slightly higher with shoulders+ring for ST.. however in a real fight I perform 200-300k worse with shoulders even on a tank/spank like dogs.

[Ysho]

HDH's are only competitive because of Demonic Fury, the T21 4-piece bonus. Meta on it's own is mediocre now. I don't know if it's because Meta hasn't scaled well in comparison to other classes' CDs or what.

[Saverem]

Shoulders are COMPLETELY dependent on the fight and length. There are fights quick enough that you'll only have time to use Meta once with or without shoulders, thus making it's ability completely useless. There are fights where you'll get 2 full Metas regardless of whether you have shoulders or not, also making it useless.


Shoulder becomes BIS on fights where you can make use of the extra Meta it gives you. There's a sweet spot there. In those cases, shoulders easily become BIS leggo. It's also very good in M+ where you can use Meta whenever it's up for max damage potential.

[mauserr]

Shoulders are COMPLETELY dependent on the fight and length. There are fights quick enough that you'll only have time to use Meta once with or without shoulders, thus making it's ability completely useless. There are fights where you'll get 2 full Metas regardless of whether you have shoulders or not, also making it useless.


Shoulder becomes BIS on fights where you can make use of the extra Meta it gives you. There's a sweet spot there. In those cases, shoulders easily become BIS leggo. It's also very good in M+ where you can use Meta whenever it's up for max damage potential.

Huh. Raddon's is better in M+, with all the trash you are basically in perma meta with raddon's, on higher levels too. There's no reason to use shoulders in M+.