Is Havoc to blame?

[Duckz0rs]

Destruction is frikkin' useless on Eonar. I mean, really - I am a well known Destruction lover, but let's face it - it's just pointless there. Yes there are adds to cleave, but the problem is there are WAY too much adds and Destro cleave has huge downtime. Shit moves all the time so can't even AoE properly.

I still wanna try Cata + CDF on Eonar, but holy shit are we fucking useless there. I've gotten to the point where I'm considering dumping only SoC relics in my Aff artifact just to have something tangible to do on that fight. I realise I'm just trolling on that fight then, but hey, not like I'm useful anyway (nobody missed me when I just went for a smoking break during a HC clear of it).

And thanks for making me realise how much I miss the old SB this tier

[Lucrece]

Everything warlock in this xpac is riddled with needless ramp up mechanisms now. Our cooldowns are unique in the fact they all require a resource cost to activate on top of basically being long term dots, making our ramp up damage immense. Same goes for aoe. Need to slap dots or summon enough demons or build up 3 shards to do any aoe at all and for that ramp up the aoe we get is mediocre (not to mention impractical).

Then there's the fact our mobility is trash and our hardcast nukes don't reflect the payoff of requiring a far more turret playstyle than most other classes do.

[Gaidax]

Warlocks are doing fine right now, Affliction is batshit OP and Destruction actually has a very solid showing too (with its issue mainly being Affliction too frikkin' OP and thus making Destruction pointless). Demo is the only one that has real issues.

Our mobility is fine and survivability is off the charts. Let's not turn this into some sniveling thread here, as I said previously - you are out of your mind if you think Destro is not good this tier, it's legit good by all metrics and its real issue is Aff being too damn powerful AND braindead easy to boot.

[Deleted]

My biggest problem is the perception that destro can't do good damage. Mainly regarding m+ groups sometimes get the ....oooo your destro, shouldn't you be affliction. So I just say you just worry about your own damage I'll be fine. Then when I top damage at the end I say not bad for a destro lock aye, hope I've changed your views most say yeah it has, the odd 1 says mememe still would have done more as affliction.

My guild are cool and realise I'm much better at destro and we have 1 of each lock spec raiding and are all very close in general but when fights are in afflictions favour there's no getting close to it. It's just too good at everything

Affliction is the problem not so much destro but it seems they've no intentions of reeling it in

[Turturin the Warlock]

My biggest problem is the perception that destro can't do good damage. Mainly regarding m+ groups sometimes get the ....oooo your destro, shouldn't you be affliction. So I just say you just worry about your own damage I'll be fine. Then when I top damage at the end I say not bad for a destro lock aye, hope I've changed your views most say yeah it has, the odd 1 says mememe still would have done more as affliction.

My guild are cool and realise I'm much better at destro and we have 1 of each lock spec raiding and are all very close in general but when fights are in afflictions favour there's no getting close to it. It's just too good at everything

Affliction is the problem not so much destro but it seems they've no intentions of reeling it in

If affliction were destro's problem, removing affliction from the game would make destro more desirable. But if affliction was removed you'd just see balance druids and shadowpriests replace them, not destro locks shining in their place.

The problem is multidot specs in general, and encounter design in Antorus that throughout the instance rewards those specs disproportionately for their strengths.

[Gaidax]

If affliction were destro's problem, removing affliction from the game would make destro more desirable. But if affliction was removed you'd just see balance druids and shadowpriests replace them, not destro locks shining in their place.

The problem is multidot specs in general, and encounter design in Antorus that throughout the instance rewards those specs disproportionately for their strengths.

The data seems to point to otherwise. Shadow is roughly on same level as Destruction in Mythic and Balance is actually worse. Affliction is a clear outlier, but Shadow and Balance are back in line... Heck if you go on fight to fight basis - Balance is actually dogshit terrible and just looks good because of couple trash fights.

Destruction will climb in ranks further too simply because fights will get shorter and this favors Destruction burst at the beginning. As a matter of fact, aside from Affliction obviously - Destruction seems to be most solid ranged spec, especially considering how little parses it has and how well it ranks Imonar+ - as a matter of fact starting from Imonar where things get more challenging - Destruction seems to be second best ranged after Aff.

Even Coven where Balance and Shadow seem to be better, reality if you study parses is that Balance and Shadow simply pad on adds that do not have to die, like unfocused Amanthuls or adds at the soft enrage where you only want to nuke bosses and fuck everything else.

[Turturin the Warlock]

The data seems to point to otherwise.....Even Coven where Balance and Shadow seem to be better, reality if you study parses is that Balance and Shadow simply pad on adds that do not have to die, like unfocused Amanthuls or adds at the soft enrage where you only want to nuke bosses and fuck everything else.

You mean this data? That pretty much shows you pulled that last statement out of thin air?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

I like destro too, but c'mon man.

[Gaidax]

You mean this data? That pretty much shows you pulled that last statement out of thin air?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

I like destro too, but c'mon man.

Destruction 66 parses... Rest 1200 parses plus.

Let's not play dumb shall we? Destruction doing so well with so little parses means that if it was actually played it would be 2nd there not 4th.

You basically nitpicked one small thing, but the reality is Destruction is seriously damn good and if Affliction would disappear as you say and all 60k Aff parses went to Destruction - it would easily be top ranged spec in Antorus for just about anything aside from Eonar or some irrelevant shit like Garothi or High Command.

Heck, if you already brought in warcraftlogs, you can see for yourself - Imonar+ Spriests are average at best with Coven being sole exception and Balance is literally dogshit tier being last or something around that in everything but Coven. So yes, if Aff would not be a thing - Destro would in fact be top ranged spec.

I have no idea why people pretend Destruction is not good or something, let alone say nonsense like Spriests or (lol) Balance being better than Destro.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Destruction 66 parses... Rest 1200 parses plus.

Let's not play dumb shall we? Destruction doing so well with so little parses means that if it was actually played it would be 2nd there not 4th.

Made up statistical inference ftw? You claim data supports your conclusion, when it doesn't you claim it would if there were more data and oh by the way the actual data doesn't matter.

I'm enjoying watching you double down on bullshit. Keep going!

[Lucrece]

Balance druid also has utterly abysmal single target DPS, so it NEEDS to be a massive outlier on aoe fights to compensate for it.

[Deleted]

My point was based on bacon mentioned the pressure others put on people to play the fotm spec of yoir given class, which many do.

Destruction is by no means bad it's mid to upper tier on nearly every boss and you can shine on a few bosses vs other classes and do well in m+. Affliction being it's problem as in people wanting/forcing people to play it because affliction is either as good at or way better at nearly everything. If a fight favours destro, affliction is very close behind, if a fight favours affliction it's a landslide ahead. If affliction didn't exist then a big percentage of the top top warlock would play it rather than affliction so it's scores/rankings would go higher still I'm sure. Affliction is destros problem in that you have to justify to a lot of people why your playing it and that you can do good damage, so people like m+ groups just don't even give you that chance,just because your not playing the all conquering spec.

It needs reeling in that doesnt affect st dos. Maybe take some damage out of the dots and boost ds/mg a bit they seen to swing from 1 extreme to the other

[Gaidax]

Made up statistical inference ftw? You claim data supports your conclusion, when it doesn't you claim it would if there were more data and oh by the way the actual data doesn't matter.

I'm enjoying watching you double down on bullshit. Keep going!

OK bud, feel free getting those OP Balance Druids instead of Destro Locks. There is nothing to double down on, any sort of person with half a brain and experience in WoW knows that the more parses there are the higher the average is.

Like you could maybe somehow stretch a point with Shadow Priests, but the fact you think Balance Druids are desirable in Antorus is laughable, they are utter trash with Coven being their sole saving grace and barely that in any sort of non-trivial encounter.

The one who is trying to bullshit here is you, not me.

- - - Updated - - -

My point was based on bacon mentioned the pressure others put on people to play the fotm spec of yoir given class, which many do.

Destruction is by no means bad it's mid to upper tier on nearly every boss and you can shine on a few bosses vs other classes and do well in m+. Affliction being it's problem as in people wanting/forcing people to play it because affliction is either as good at or way better at nearly everything. If a fight favours destro, affliction is very close behind, if a fight favours affliction it's a landslide ahead. If affliction didn't exist then a big percentage of the top top warlock would play it rather than affliction so it's scores/rankings would go higher still I'm sure. Affliction is destros problem in that you have to justify to a lot of people why your playing it and that you can do good damage, so people like m+ groups just don't even give you that chance,just because your not playing the all conquering spec.

It needs reeling in that doesnt affect st dos. Maybe take some damage out of the dots and boost ds/mg a bit they seen to swing from 1 extreme to the other

This is basically the current Destruction "issue". Some questionable design choices aside - it performs really well now, but it is completely cannibalized by Affliction which is simply even better in just about everything, pretty ridiculous in my opinion considering Destruction is already A-tier ranged damage dealer in Antorus as is.

[Biomega]

There is nothing to double down on, any sort of person with half a brain and experience in WoW knows that the more parses there are the higher the average is.

How is that supposed to work? That goes against all statistical sense. Are implying some sort of bias in the data?

[Gaidax]

How is that supposed to work? That goes against all statistical sense. Are implying some sort of bias in the data?

It is very simple, when certain spec performs better than another one - people who are more skilled and the ones who tend to parse higher play that spec, which pulls its upper quadrant averages up.

When you have Affliction come with 10 times the parses than Destruction it means that during progress Mythic guilds gravitate heavily to Affliction and these are creme de la creme players who are not playing Destruction.

This is very simple and natural bias in data, because more skilled players choose to play most optimal spec, leaving Destruction to either super dedicated players or outright bads who don't know any better, this drags its performance in statistics down.

[Biomega]

It is very simple, when certain spec performs better than another one - people who are more skilled and the ones who tend to parse higher play that spec, which pulls its upper quadrant averages up.

When you have Affliction come with 10 times the parses than Destruction it means that during progress Mythic guilds gravitate heavily to Affliction and these are creme de la creme players who are not playing Destruction.

This is very simple and natural bias in data, because more skilled players choose to play most optimal spec, leaving Destruction to either super dedicated players or outright bads who don't know any better, this drags its performance in statistics down.

But isn't the same true the other way round? If a spec is 'flavor of the month' with tons of sub-par people jumping on the band wagon, won't that also correct results downward? And the highly skilled players are usually a tiny minority. Conversely, it's not uncommon for enthusiasts of certain marginal specs to play VERY well, raising the average beyond expected values in small sample sizes (e.g. that Outlaw thing during early m-Argus kills if you want an extreme example).

I'm not saying it's impossible that what you describe happens, but I think it's overly facile to imply some sort of direct correlation rule that goes against the usual statistical tendencies.

[Gaidax]

But isn't the same true the other way round? If a spec is 'flavor of the month' with tons of sub-par people jumping on the band wagon, won't that also correct results downward? And the highly skilled players are usually a tiny minority. Conversely, it's not uncommon for enthusiasts of certain marginal specs to play VERY well, raising the average beyond expected values in small sample sizes (e.g. that Outlaw thing during early m-Argus kills if you want an extreme example).

I'm not saying it's impossible that what you describe happens, but I think it's overly facile to imply some sort of direct correlation rule that goes against the usual statistical tendencies.

Subpar people don't have 90%+ or even 75%+ mythic parses at the start of a tier.

You forget that you throw away all the trash when you check statistics.

[Deleted]

I still stand by my assessment that Destruction itself is just fine now and the main issue is that Aff is just way too strong. Destruction itself is doing well overall.

Numbers wise you are not wrong, Destruction is doing really well and the only reason nobody plays Destruction is because Affliction is just batshit insane. But having big numbers is not what makes a spec 'fine'. Mechanically Destruction is a shell of its former self. Many baseline abilities made talents or removed, much of the skill required to play MoP (and already to a lesser extent, WoD) Destruction has been removed, which, for the most part, is due to Shadowburn being gutted and Havoc barely needing any decisionmaking.

Have you not been playing Destruction for quite some time as well? I have been playing Destruction and clearing all the hardest content at 95+ percentile (for however much that matters) for many expansions now and while I still enjoy the spec (hell, right now I am playing Destruction for Mythic, even given the retarded state Affliction is in), it is actually so, so sad to see the spec like this, down in the dirt, far removed from the glory days of MoP. Why change what is not broken?

Note, again, that I am talking about Destruction mechanically here, not numbers wise.

[Gaidax]

MoP iteration in SoO was basically a state of OP, of course it was better because it was way out of whack. WoD on the other hand Destruction issue was similar to current Affliction where all your power came from adds and without those it was weak (current Affliction is simply blatantly overtuned so it avoids this slump). In WoD Shadowburn was the crutch that held the whole Destruction house of cards together and while it is certainly a great spell for fast add switching, Destruction was seriously anchored and balanced around it.

I, for one, think that current Destruction is very healthy, because it is actually powerful without relying on things like Shadowburn which do not play out in many cases.

I do have some issues with current Destruction such as Life Tap being forced into it and Sacrifice being shit, as such making it impossible to have serious petless pure nuking gameplay, but other than that - Destruction is very solid right now and it's solid by itself with out relying on unreliable or situational stuff.

Overall I think those parts notwithstanding, Destruction is actually very solid mechanically now.

[Baconeggcheese]

I can't say I remember being "anchored" to SB in the way you're saying, definitely not to the degree that legion aff is entirely dependent on souls. I felt like SB did a much better job of having add deaths compliment the spec as opposed to drive it.

[Gaidax]

That thing is definitely not something that can be contested, I remember very well all the Shadowburn Havoc spam that literally drove the spec in HFC and by drove it I mean it made it decent and that's it mostly because Blizzard had hardcore adds hard-on that tier.

Overall, I believe it was a degenerate gameplay, because over-reliance on specific conditions to function is nothing but trouble in the long run.