If your business can't function without underpaying employees it shouldnt exist

[Cyi]

Hell in Arizona becoming a LPN or a RN takes 1-2 years of school and pay 15-30 or more a hour to start and there are tons of jobs there and its growing.

Heck a quick search shows thousands of jobs in Arizona alone for a RN (2 years of education plus a certification test) for 75k +

Plus you get great benefits to boot!

[Kaeth]

This is misleading. What exactly is the "rent rate" they are quoting?

It's written right at the top of the image that it's based upon Fair Market Rent: HUD Fair Market Rent Chart and Calculator

Also, if they apply a general rate to the entire nation, it will screw with the results. I mean, a home in California will certainly cost more then one in Montana, so if applied evenly will make some states fair far worse then others.

That's the reason the chart isn't a single color with the same number in every state. The federal minimum wage is a constant; the differing values listed for each state are because the FMR differs by region. If you follow the above link to the HUD website, you can look up rates by individual city or county.

Minimum wage sucks, I get it, but this chart is deceptive.

Not for any of the reasons you've listed thus far.

IN addition, most of the states offer higher minimum wage then federal yet they still list the hours needed to work in federal law not state.

I'm not sure how this particular chart deals with states with a higher state-level minimum wage, but the updated chart at http://nlihc.org/sites/default/files...n-Wage-Map.pdf indicates that state minimum wage is taken into account wherever relevant. Otherwise, that's the only actual misleading thing about the chart you've mentioned thus far.

Its designed to elicit a reaction.

Of course it is. The National Low Income Housing Coalition isn't trying to pretend it's not an advocacy group. They don't publish this chart just because they're bored. But attempting to "elicit a reaction" isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it's based upon false or misleading information. Which your post failed to demonstrate.

[Annamarine]

Yeah I wouldn't suggest a STEM degree is right for everyone, but there are other options, most still way better then working for minimum wage at McD's. Its OK to not be a rich person, just ask the dem's. Not everyone needs to be lawyer, scientist or doctor. The trades are a valuable source of income if people would just learn them.

For me just dont get a gender studies degree and bitch when the only place that hires you is Star bucks .. especially when you walk in all tattoos and pierced up with a chip on your shoulder.

[Cyi]

For me just dont get a gender studies degree and bitch when the only place that hires you is Star bucks .. especially when you walk in all tattoos and pierced up with a chip on your shoulder.

Agreed 10000%. I advocate learning a skill if you cant or won't attempt a STEM degree.

[Annamarine]

No. I'm not saying "just hand people money" I'm saying they should get paid a living wage. Otherwise they'll need some kind of welfare to make sure their minimum needs are being met.

You're talking about people nearing their 30's starting community college, then going to university. They'll be lucky if they get a bachelor's degree by age 40 if they're going part time. You act like all these jobs are available for the picking but they're not.

They also had their 20's to do something ... if they are sitting in their 30's and 40's at minimum wage they have fucked up and that's their lot in life. They are worth what someone is willing to pay them. If its minimum wage its minimum wage.

Any 2 years of your life to become a RN or something similar is not to much to ask. There are plenty of people in their 40's who have done so. To just ignore training and bitch about your wage shows how much motivation to improve you actually have and if its zero why should I have to pay you for this?

[Cyi]

No. I'm not saying "just hand people money" I'm saying they should get paid a living wage. Otherwise they'll need some kind of welfare to make sure their minimum needs are being met.

You're talking about people nearing their 30's starting community college, then going to university. They'll be lucky if they get a bachelor's degree by age 40 if they're going part time. You act like all these jobs are available for the picking but they're not.

I did it. My wife is currently doing it. My daughter is going to school part time to be a dental hygienist while working in a dental office as an assistant. There are options.

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And the minimum wage should be a livable wage. That's why it was created. It currently is not a livable wage. Welcome to the conversation.

Your entire argument is based on the minimum wage. Who stays at that level for any amount of time? I mean hell, even Walmart pays better and offers raises every six months, with all kinds of room for advancement. I dont know a single person that works for minimum wage for an extended period of time. Hell even my 16 year son works for more then it.

[Annamarine]

And the minimum wage should be a livable wage. That's why it was created. It currently is not a livable wage. Welcome to the conversation.

Not welcome to the conversation .. minimum wage shouldn't even exist the market should decide your value. I couldn't give two shits if someone can afford to live on minimum wage ... go get life skills spend a little time getting it done and your be better off.

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I did it. My wife is currently doing it. My daughter is going to school part time to be a dental hygienist while working in a dental office as an assistant. There are options.

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Your entire argument is based on the minimum wage. Who stays at that level for any amount of time? I mean hell, even Walmart pays better and offers raises every six months, with all kinds of room for advancement. I dont know a single person that works for minimum wage for an extended period of time. Hell even my 16 year son works for more then it.

Like I have been saying if your over 22 and work for minimum wage you have fucked up somewhere.

[Annamarine]

Any job a business needs done should warrant a livable wage. If that business has to rely on underpaying their employees to make a profit, then they shouldn't be in business. And yeah, let's just get rid of all labor regulations. Free market, right? Let's go back to child labor.



Those wages are still not at a living wage though. Which is the point.

Nope if you're not worth a living wage you need to do something about it .. its not society's responsibility to fix your life.

[Vash The Stampede]

The reason a lot anti raising minimum people hate the idea of a living wage is because that's what they're making yearly as well. But what those people don't understand is that if the living wage goes up, so will your wage. You think you should be making $30k-$40k a year with education and experience?

[Machismo]

So every time I go to a store I should ask what the employees are paid? Lol.

If that's what you care about, you should do it before you step into the store.

[Annamarine]

If you're doing a job that a business needs done, then YOU ARE WORTH A LIVING WAGE. That is the entire point, how many times do you have to be told this?

How many times do you need to be told .. if your not worth a living wage you not worth it ... its upto you to get off your ass go out and obtain the skills necessary to get one.

[Annamarine]

No, it's not.. it's expecting businesses to pay it's employees a reasonable wage in accordance to the cost of living within a given area. And if you were as into freedom as you claimed then you'd be for this as well. Have to take into account those that can't get by with their wages alone may be seeking section 8; correct me if I'm wrong, which is government funded as is food stamps and even Obama care.

A reasonable wage would reduce the taxes that are being funneled into these programs and others like them. Taxes that we all have to pay. So much for that freedom, eh?

A much more reasonable solution is to stop relying on the government tit and go get skills necessary to have a living wage. Its not upto me or anyone else to pay you a wage that is more than you are worth ...

Anyone can flip a burger why should I pay you more to do it?

[Machismo]

No, it's not.. it's expecting businesses to pay it's employees a reasonable wage in accordance to the cost of living within a given area. And if you were as into freedom as you claimed then you'd be for this as well. Have to take into account those that can't get by with their wages alone may be seeking section 8; correct me if I'm wrong, which is government funded as is food stamps and even Obama care.

A reasonable wage would reduce the taxes that are being funneled into these programs and others like them. Taxes that we all have to pay. So much for that freedom, eh?

If a business doesn't pay its employees what you feel they deserve, then don't spend your money at that business... it really is that simple. I'm all for private unionization and collective bargaining. What I'm not in favor of, is using the government to get all the things you feel you deserve from others.

You seem to think that lower wages mean we should also be forced into paying more in welfare. I disagree. Those are two different issues, and it's entirely possible to not support either premise. It's time you guys stopped wanting government to solve all your problems, and start taking care of it yourselves.

[THE Bigzoman]

Fuck it, I'm in. Let's do this. I can't resist a spicy conversation, even if I need to sleep.

You claim that you're challenging my worldview and that's making me uncomfortable. This is simply not true; a brief history lesson shows how horrible communism is. But beyond that, I'm no stranger to seeing my fellow man suffer under what seems to be the looming boot of capitalism. But to automatically assume the solution is to simply pay them more is feeble minded, and it doesn't take into account the long term effects it can have. It takes real effort to make a change, and if you feel you're worth more than you are, then do what it takes. If only rich trust fund babies were the only ones at the top, you might have a point. But you can find scores of cases where someone had an idea, took the risk, and is now on cloud 9. And that's just the supremely wealthy, not to mention the ones who have a good idea and run a mildly successful business that can maybe net then a good five, maybe six- figure income. But those people built their business, they busted their ass to get there, they deserve what they're paid, dammit!

And this is where it comes to your desires. In your blind resentment for the ultra wealthy, you forget about the small businesses. You wanna enforce measures to pay employees a far higher than they're worth, and one that smaller businesses simply can't compete with. Those small businesses will be forced to close shop since they simply can't compete with the big boy corporations. Now any employee working for them is out of a job, and some money is better than no money.

That's all I got for now. I'm sleepy.

What's really funny is that this discussion is on a website centered around world of Warcraft, possibly one of the biggest time sinks there is.

I wonder how many of the most devoted believers spent their weekends doing raids instead of trying to learn something; anything that could help elevate them.

[Mistame]

Actually by default the minimum wage explicitly means that the government determines the value of labor. The free market and all that other bullshit comes in AFTER THAT to try to entice better people with more skills to show up for more benefits or higher pay.

No, it doesn't. It means the government prevents employers for setting their value for labor too low.

Check the link. It shows what a person has to work for a single bedroom apartment.

You keep saying "Check the link", yet the link you've provided is to an image imbedded in a PDF. Regardless, the article itself is hyperbolic.

In order to afford a modest, two-bedroom rental home in the U.S., renters need to earn a wage of $21.21 per hour.

A single person doesn't need a two-bedroom home. Not to mention that "home" generally refers to a house, not an apartment (the former is always more expensive than the latter). Regardless, the entire premise is built with the express intent of supporting an explicit point, therein making it inherently invalid.

And the minimum wage should be a livable wage. That's why it was created. It currently is not a livable wage. Welcome to the conversation.

And all that does is lead us back to the debate about what a "livable wage" is. If you want to say that a minimum wage should provide enough for a single person to house, cloth and feed themselves, then fine. However, if you're going to quote a FDR speech made nearly a century ago and claim that a single person should make enough to have a nice home, car, wife, kids and spending money then sorry, just about every rational personal is going to dismiss your argument as the irrational folly that it is.

[tyrlaan]

At the end of they day, everyone against min wage increases seems to have no actual argument other than "People that earn less than a living wage deserve their crappy wage and all the suffering that comes with it, because reasons".

Bravo.

The only valid argument I've seen is that UBI is the better solution, and it is. But we are clearly not there yet and won't be for some time.

[Annamarine]

Why is a person doing a job that is required for a business to meet their demand somehow not worth a living wage? Why do you believe that? I worked at a McDonald's that ran with a total of ten employees at any given time, two full time supervisors and eight part time employees. It was a small one inside a Wal-Mart. We made roughly 1.5 million dollars a year in revenue. Supervisors made 40k a year. Part time employees were all paid $7-9 an hour at most. During peak hours, we had 3 crew members and a supervisor. During most other times it was crew member and a supervisor. So, even at the 9/hr for the part time employees, that's roughly 165k a year going towards labor. Other costs were roughly 500k a year. Which leaves them with a profit of around 850k. That means each employee is generating them roughly 100k a year in profit. The supervisors are getting about 40% of that which is pretty good. The min wage employees (if working full time) are getting ~18% of that. But they're not even given the chance at full time because then they'd have to give other benefits to those employees. They should be getting closer to 25-30% of that. At busier McDonald's that number is closer to 150k-200k profit generated per employee.

Sounds to me like they're worth plenty more than the current minimum wage.

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No one working at Mcdonald's is just flipping burgers. In fact, they don't even do that because the grill cooks both sides at once.

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Most of the people I see here advocating for an increased min wage are all pretty well off with high paying jobs already. So, no need.

You are worth what you are willing to be paid ... if you take 9.00 a hour guess what that's what you are worth. No one is guaranteed anything in life and least of all deserves a living wage ... nope not ever going to happen, If I can simply hire someone else I will.

If you want more go learn construction plenty of jobs there but its hard or go back to school. Stop expecting the government to take care of you.

[Annamarine]

At the end of they day, everyone against min wage increases seems to have no actual argument other than "People that earn less than a living wage deserve their crappy wage and all the suffering that comes with it, because reasons".

Bravo.

The only valid argument I've seen is that UBI is the better solution, and it is. But we are clearly not there yet and won't be for some time.

People earning less than a minimum wage do get exactly what they deserve ... you are paid what you are worth every time .. if you want more its upto you to get more .. if that means learning a trade or going to acquire actual marketable skills then do it. Stop expecting the government to improve your life do it yourself.

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That's why I don't really see the point in discussing minimum wage too much regardless. In the near future we'll have to worry more about there not being enough jobs because of automation and need a solution to that. Of course, most of the same people here railing against a minimum wage are going to be against that as well because they somehow think people can just pull a job out of their ass or start their own business and actually be able to compete.

Great I for one cant wait until automation comes and gets rid of these jobs ..if you want to force a business to pay more they will replace it with automation.. I cant wait then I can hear you whine even more. If you want to try and insist I pay you above market rate I will simply ether off shore the job (information workers) or automate it (unskilled workers)

[Annamarine]

There's no other option than that. Your argument just sucks. That's all their is to it. Obviously, if someone had the option to go down the street and take a job that pays them a more significant chunk of what they make for the company then they would. But it's not an option. Stop living in a fantasy land.

Why wouldn't people expect their government to take care of societal issues for them? that's their purpose. That's why the exist. To serve the public.

You completely ignored my question still. Why do you think someone making 100k/year for a company is only worth 16-18k a year?

You same type of people get all riled up over tax increases and the government taking your money but you're perfectly okay with this company taking the money THAT YOU MADE FOR THEM. Why? They're taking 82% of it in this case and leaving you with pennies on the dollars. Why are you okay with people taking the money you earned?

Government exists to provide security, roads, infrastructure to allow a economy to exist .. its not here to provide you a cradle to grave life you dont even have to leave your comfort zone to obtain.

More you insist on this more automation WILL occur until the unskilled cant even obtain a minimum wage job and then were are you? You cant force me to hire you.

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There's no other option than that. Your argument just sucks. That's all their is to it. Obviously, if someone had the option to go down the street and take a job that pays them a more significant chunk of what they make for the company then they would. But it's not an option. Stop living in a fantasy land.

Why wouldn't people expect their government to take care of societal issues for them? that's their purpose. That's why the exist. To serve the public.

You completely ignored my question still. Why do you think someone making 100k/year for a company is only worth 16-18k a year?

You same type of people get all riled up over tax increases and the government taking your money but you're perfectly okay with this company taking the money THAT YOU MADE FOR THEM. Why? They're taking 82% of it in this case and leaving you with pennies on the dollars. Why are you okay with people taking the money you earned?

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They'll replace it with automation regardless. You know what's cheaper than any minimum wage? $0. Which is what the cost will end up being after investing in automation.

You keep replying that I'm whining about my personal life. I make six figures, princess. I just actually give a shit about other people, unlike you.

Great and that happens even faster if you try to make me pay above market rates just because. I dont give two shits about someone who's not even willing to invest in themselves.

[Logwyn]

That was an example but yes you do. Humans beings need social interaction and leisure time to be healthy. Why does it seems right for you to say someone should just work/eat/sleep/ stare at the ceiling till next workday just because he's doing a job you don't like (yet would be very annoyed if it disappeared).

No you took it to that extreme. Entertainment varies from playing horseshoes in the back yard to having a hobby of car racing. So a living wage should cover someones buying yachts to race?