40 people raids

[therealbowser]

Sure, the loot was epic because you never got any.

Sounds great, until you realize that your entire 40 man raid can't progress because of an artificial gear wall that takes literally months to overcome. And good luck if any of the members you helped gear up for months -- especially your tank -- quits, or even worse, changes guilds and gives the progression you worked them up to, to someone else.

I do not miss vanilla progression. People who act like those were the 'good old days' are blind as can be. Time to take off those rose-tinted glasses.

[Dazu]

There was DKP -
you have probably never heard of that in your life.

You hardly rolled against 5 in the same class.

Go, sit in the corner pretending you played Vanilla.

Because every guild and every raid used DKP right? Plenty used modified versions of it, my guild used a weighted roll system where attendance and being on time plus not winning over weeks would get increased chance but no guarantee until they broke 100+ points on there roll clear of any other challengers (we used /roll 1-100 plus the weight added on, so if I had 35 points my roll was 35-135 etc) Loot would then remove a portion of your points (IIRC was something like 25 to 50 per item and it capped at something like 200 bonus). Personally I hated DKP. It was so unrewarding not getting the last piece you need in a raid and then miss out to the person who hordes their points for that one item and passes on multiple upgrades along the way and now that person goes back and gets the rest defaulted anyway (if they werent already getting them as defaults). Loot councils to me, provided the leadership group is intelligent and fair, is the best method to go.

Also have fun when a + healing mace dropped. Every healer wanted it. 1 per 2-3 weeks with 15-20 healers on the roster meant you likely didnt get a weapon for a whole year. I started raiding mid to late 2005, did MC every week and ZG,AQ20 and BWL and Ony most weeks from when they opened. I got 1x 2hand weapon for my paladin that was a raid drop in the entire of vanilla and it was the 2.2 AS mace from AQ20 which was a blue anyway. Also the other issue was the number of classes needing certain items. All classes gained AP from strength so hunters and rogues needed strength gear too. Was no reason to wear correct armor class so paladins competed with priests and druids for int gear to raid in (and if it wasnt a +heals then mages and warlocks and sometimes hunters too).

As for epics being epic. My first epic I thought was awesome. It paid for my level 40 mount. BoP epics never really mattered (my guild was 5 bosses into MC when I joined and I was 4 piece lawbringer and 6 or so epics in about 2 weeks because all our paladins had already had their drops - I think I annoyed my GM because I kept asking everyone else if they could possibly use because I was getting so much before I looted it), BoE ones id get really excited over. Most were a quick couple hundred gold on the AH!

What was epic, was working through bosses without all the addons and complete in depth guides with set timers on everything and seeing said boss die.

[Kagthul]

Yeah, having to roll against 5+ other people is so epic amirite?

I mean, I love vanilla, but this whole "hurr epics were epic!" thing kinda comes crashing to a halt as soon as you start raiding MC. Especially considering that with the release of Dire Maul and ZG, there's tons of blue gear that is better than MC epics. Hell, there's a pair of green plate healing bracers that are BIS until Naxx due to having a huge amount of +heal and int on them.

And then when patch 1.10 drops, a whole shitload of blue dungeon gear gets buffed massively, to the point where large swaths of MC gear is obsolete.

Getting your first epic is "epic", everything after that, not so much.

This different from the current game.... how? New Tier comes out and you get “catchup” gear from farmable solo,content that utterly invalidates -everything- previous.

[Lochton]

means gear is more epic when you get it

Naw, just means you are rolling against 39 others about some gear and you have a higher chance to lose it because one might be bff with the raid officers.

[anon5123]

There was DKP -
you have probably never heard of that in your life.

You hardly rolled against 5 in the same class.

Go, sit in the corner pretending you played Vanilla.

Because every single raid in vanilla was a guild run, right? Pugs didn't exist at all, right?



Go, sit in the corner pretending you played Vanilla.

[Eveningforest]

Because every guild and every raid used DKP right? Plenty used modified versions of it, my guild used a weighted roll system where attendance and being on time plus not winning over weeks would get increased chance but no guarantee until they broke 100+ points on there roll clear of any other challengers (we used /roll 1-100 plus the weight added on, so if I had 35 points my roll was 35-135 etc) Loot would then remove a portion of your points (IIRC was something like 25 to 50 per item and it capped at something like 200 bonus). Personally I hated DKP. It was so unrewarding not getting the last piece you need in a raid and then miss out to the person who hordes their points for that one item and passes on multiple upgrades along the way and now that person goes back and gets the rest defaulted anyway (if they werent already getting them as defaults). Loot councils to me, provided the leadership group is intelligent and fair, is the best method to go.

Also have fun when a + healing mace dropped. Every healer wanted it. 1 per 2-3 weeks with 15-20 healers on the roster meant you likely didnt get a weapon for a whole year. I started raiding mid to late 2005, did MC every week and ZG,AQ20 and BWL and Ony most weeks from when they opened. I got 1x 2hand weapon for my paladin that was a raid drop in the entire of vanilla and it was the 2.2 AS mace from AQ20 which was a blue anyway. Also the other issue was the number of classes needing certain items. All classes gained AP from strength so hunters and rogues needed strength gear too. Was no reason to wear correct armor class so paladins competed with priests and druids for int gear to raid in (and if it wasnt a +heals then mages and warlocks and sometimes hunters too).

As for epics being epic. My first epic I thought was awesome. It paid for my level 40 mount. BoP epics never really mattered (my guild was 5 bosses into MC when I joined and I was 4 piece lawbringer and 6 or so epics in about 2 weeks because all our paladins had already had their drops - I think I annoyed my GM because I kept asking everyone else if they could possibly use because I was getting so much before I looted it), BoE ones id get really excited over. Most were a quick couple hundred gold on the AH!

What was epic, was working through bosses without all the addons and complete in depth guides with set timers on everything and seeing said boss die.

Strange system. Pure DKP would have been more fair since it is most heavily based on attendance and everyone knows where they and other people stand.
Healers always had a harder time gearing than let's say warriors/hunters merely due to their limited capacity to equip relevant drops. I waited about 3 months for Nef's mace even though I was top DKP points simply because the damn thing refused to drop and there was no equivalent.

In Classic, I'm rolling an Ally hunter because all loot is hunter loot including shammy drops.

- - - Updated - - -

Because every single raid in vanilla was a guild run, right? Pugs didn't exist at all, right?



Go, sit in the corner pretending you played Vanilla.

You pugged if you sucked, that's all I have for you today.
/cheers

[feellucky]

Blizz explains a bit why it didn't work here: https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...-1a-look-back/

Started on a fresh server that opened in spring of 06, by the time TBC released I had attained high warlord, cleared all of MC, BWL, ZG and AQ20. Cleared all but C'thun/Ouro in A40 and 5 bosses in Naxx and that was with the guild stopping raids over a month before TBC release because most people didnt feel it was worth it to continue with the new expansion dropping. At the pace we were at, we'd have come close if they given us a full year instead of 8 months, and we were far from the greatest group of players around. We also used minimal consumables for raiding, I don't remember spending any time at all actually farming for raid consumables out in the world, I spent some of the gold I made raiding to buy a few basic things I used occasionally, some resistance potions and buff potions. Also, I had 5k gold by the time TBC dropped.

I can't speak to the average player, so no idea if what they said was accurate but definitely wasn't in my case and for many on my server.

[Constraint]

Yeah, having to roll against 5+ other people is so epic amirite?

I mean, I love vanilla, but this whole "hurr epics were epic!" thing kinda comes crashing to a halt as soon as you start raiding MC. Especially considering that with the release of Dire Maul and ZG, there's tons of blue gear that is better than MC epics. Hell, there's a pair of green plate healing bracers that are BIS until Naxx due to having a huge amount of +heal and int on them.

And then when patch 1.10 drops, a whole shitload of blue dungeon gear gets buffed massively, to the point where large swaths of MC gear is obsolete.

Getting your first epic is "epic", everything after that, not so much.

Disagreed, actually. When you get loot a lot less frequently, it does feel a lot more epic to many, probably even most, people. It's not exactly rocket science if you're wondering as to why. Of course, it's also a lot more frustrating when you don't get it.

Still, I and many others prefer the feeling that when you get an item, you've got that item. Not "you've got that item, but it's the worst possible roll on that item, so now farm that same item over and over until it rolls TF".

[In Ogres We Trust]

means gear is more epic when you get it

No, in actuality, it doesn't. Also, it's unlikely to make a comeback with WoW: Classic.

[Frolk]

means gear is more epic when you get it

Will prolly only need 20-25 ppl, as ppl are less of a mouthbreather today then they were 12years ago

[Niwes]

thats the only thing i fear most for success of classic servers. build and foremost hold 40man raids in 2017, will be very very hard stuff. the only thing i am feared of tbh.

[stomination]

YES it was SO great to get PALADIN gear without a Pala in raid /s

You mean priest gear.

[rewhaha]

ideally you have a loot council. but this doesn't work unless your group is extremely tight knit, and unselfish

[Airwaves]

As someone who ran them. 40 man raids were more like 10 man raids with 30 cannon fodder. You only needed a handful of decent players to clear them. The rest were just irrelevant attachments.

[Zulatomten]

ideally you have a loot council. but this doesn't work unless your group is extremely tight knit, and unselfish

Ideally you're the raid leader with a less preforming spec and require and take gear for all three/four of your specializations.

thats the only thing i fear most for success of classic servers. build and foremost hold 40man raids in 2017, will be very very hard stuff. the only thing i am feared of tbh.

It wasn't hard to get new members on the most prominent private servers last year. The most tedious part is to acually get the acual 40 players you need to show up each time.
Also, your signature. I see what you did there.

[Deleted]

YES it was SO great to get PALADIN gear without a Pala in raid /s

Can we please stop this bullshit? Paladin gear for Horde and Shaman gear fo Alliance only dropped after the pre TBC patch, before that it never happened

[faithbane]

You pugged if you sucked, that's all I have for you today.
/cheers

Dude don't even sugar code it for them..

People who claim they were "vanilla" players and they claimed they "pugged" raids.. What they mean is they played on some shitty private server for free and now feel entitled to call themselves vanilla players.

There was literally NO PUGGING in real classic wow/vanilla. Because you involved finding 40 players who are attuned to the raid you want to do, who wants to raid at the exact same time with no (or very primitive) search tools - including defense capped warriors, hunters with tranq shot, kiters, mages who knew how to decurse, enough heals and a compotent RL + people that would listen to him, resistance gear for certain fights (yes as early as MC you needed it), certain multi week farm items such as onyxia cloak to be able to clear BWL.
On top of everything else the fucking raids were INSTANCE ID LOCKED. meaning you either clear it all with that 40 people or come back the next day to find another 40 people who are ok with being saved to previous bosses and start from the half cleared raid you had left yesterday. Or you could form the damn raid and find the raid cleared because someone else from the previous day formed a raid before you and cleared it before you could. You can't make 40 man pug to promise to not clear it without each other with conflicting schedules and being locked to same bosses.
all hell would break loose if another person from the yesterday raid also formed his own 40 man to try to clear also now you would try to zone into same fucking instance ID with 2 different raids and try to hijack the raid from each other every time one of the raids wiped.

TL/DR version - Pugging in vanilla DIDN'T happen for the reasons above and more. Your shitty private server experience is not vanilla.

[Sturmbringe]

Naw, just means you are rolling against 39 others about some gear and you have a higher chance to lose it because one might be bff with the raid officers.

It doesn't work like this. Almost every single Vanilla Raid Guild use DKP.

Look it up: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_kill_points

Simply put, DKP rewards attendance and whosoever has got more DKP points get the gear they want, period.

What you describe is called "Loot Council". I am not aware of any Vanilla guild (in Nostalrious, K or E) that use Loot Council.

Also, you do not even roll for gear. Everything is determined based on your DKP points.

[epLe]

Blizz explains a bit why it didn't work here: https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...-1a-look-back/

They never said it didn't work. They explained why it worked as it did.

But as usual, they left out the real reason why... (due to political reasons)

To put it very simple : TBC got launched too soon, people were simply not done in naxx, nor vanilla.

That's the one gripe I have with TBC, that they didn't cut the amount of gear the bosses dropped in half when switching to 25-man.

And this ^ Very few saw this problem back then, but it is indeed one of the real nerfs to TBC raiding contra Vanilla..

[Lochton]

It doesn't work like this. Almost every single Vanilla Raid Guild use DKP.

Look it up: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_kill_points

Simply put, DKP rewards attendance and whosoever has got more DKP points get the gear they want, period.

What you describe is called "Loot Council". I am not aware of any Vanilla guild (in Nostalrious, K or E) that use Loot Council.

Also, you do not even roll for gear. Everything is determined based on your DKP points.

I know what DKP is, sadly. And it was shit. We ran with it but stopped a few weeks before TBC hit.