Russian officials bar opposition leader Alexei Navalny from running for president

[Shalcker]

You said you are willing to support murder and oppression, now we just have to figure out how much you are willing to tolerate. Only you can say exactly where you draw the line.

Somewhere around decimation.

[rda]

... corruption situation improved significantly, ...

What? Any specifics? Because all I see is Putin friends appropriating more and more of what there is in Russia and stealing in bigger and bigger proportions (and getting more and more blatant with adding laws that aim solely to make some of them richer - like that additional tax named Platon which spends all of its money on maintaining the system of collecting it, with that system being in private hands of a certain noble fellow).

Income didn't improve either, it only improved if you compare it with something like 2010. Compare with 2014 where the shit started hitting the fan, you will see a decline. (Where are you getting that the income improved from, by the way - the official statistics? The official statistics are full of outrageous claims like "the average salary in Moscow is about 90k RUR" which inevitably turn out to be them not reporting an important detail - in that particular case the number was measured only for big companies which ended up being mostly folks from oil companies, those of them sitting in Moscow.)

[Shalcker]

What? Any specifics? Because all I see is Putin friends appropriating more and more of what there is in Russia and stealing in bigger and bigger proportions (and getting more and more blatant with adding laws that aim solely to make some of them richer - like that additional tax named Platon which spends all of its money on maintaining the system of collecting it, with that system being in private hands of a certain noble fellow).

Platon is made as copy of German "Toll Collect" GmbH (note - also private company).

Laws that make rich richer... well, look at US and their latest tax bill... that was happening for decades at this point all through the world - not just in US but in Europe too. Divergence of profits toward 1% is natural result of merely copying Western system as it stands. You cannot really escape it without modifying it heavily; and Putin isn't great innovator in that regard. He just copies what seems to work in hope that it'll get Russia closer to Western prosperity.

And well, it did... not without faults, but it did for quite a while, and was well on the way to fulfill his plans. Until he actually won economic bid on Ukraine against EU Association Agreement... he is quite decent with economy; but he and his cronies aren't great at dealing with revolutions, Western-orchestrated or not. Just can't manage to deal with people acting against their interests.

Maybe after some practice with foreign election meddling they'll get some tools to resolve this particular weakness.

Income didn't improve either, it only improved if you compare it with something like 2010.

In case you didn't know, Putin became president in 1999. We count from there. He paid IMF loans well ahead of the time, did plenty of economic reforms and modernization, attracted foreign investments and so on.

Compare with 2014 where the shit started hitting the fan, you will see a decline.

Obviously once we came to conflict his plans were disrupted; his Euro-integration plans had to be re-aligned to Asia heavily. That came at a cost - but once re-alignment happened we're getting some growth back now in 2017. We'll see how robust is that growth next year.

(Where are you getting that the income improved from, by the way - the official statistics? The official statistics are full of outrageous claims like "the average salary in Moscow is about 90k RUR" which inevitably turn out to be them not reporting an important detail - in that particular case the number was measured only for big companies which ended up being mostly folks from oil companies, those of them sitting in Moscow.)

That's how average works - yes, Moscow billionaires are counted together with sales clerk in local shop, and that drives number up.

[Vizardlorde]

I don think he is cool enough to die from an allergic reaction to plutonium coffee, but you cant rule out the possibility he will have a heart attack on a flight of stairs causing severe blunt force trauma.

[Felya]

I don think he is cool enough to die from an allergic reaction to plutonium coffee, but you cant rule out the possibility he will have a heart attack on a flight of stairs causing severe blunt force trauma.

He might just get shot... by Americans or Chechens or Putin’s opponents... of course... never because of Putin... his opponents have a tendency to kill each other, in an effort to make Putin look bad.

[Kujako]

He might just get shot

You mean he'll trip and fall on some bullets.

[Breccia]

I remain surprised that there are people who don't realize Putin is a dictator.

[ringpriest]

Yeah, this is patent comedy.

Putin tries as hard as he can not to let Navalny compete without outright killing him (although if push comes to shove, he might end up doing the latter) precisely because all that wide support for Putin with the figures of 86% and whatnot is hugely fake (does he have even 30%? hard to tell) and consists of wild exaggerations from the pollsters and people being polled by the official pollsters holding back their real opinions.

If you think Putin is not extremely popular, the you are as delusional as those who think Russia is democratic - here is a link to a reasonably objective take on his popularity.

Putin benefits from the convergence of several favorable factors to garner mostly real support (considerably more real than Trump's): state control of the media to a degree that US political parties only dream of, living memory of him turning what was an ongoing national disaster into a national rejuvenation of sort (even if he could do better, he has not done badly), and opposition from the (perceived (arguably correctly) as hostile) United States. Twenty years ago Russia was a new sort of failed-state, the failed superpower state in the throes of collapse on multiple axes (which, for the record, is the track I believe the United States to be on), Putin has taken that and turned the nation back into a Great Power (with a superpower level strategic arsenal) with a functioning economy (even if it is far more highly dependent on oil revenues than it ought to be).

If you're American, imagine some of the better (or at least, perceived as better) parts of post-Depression FDR, Reagan, and Winston Churchill, paint it with a layer of Trump's appeal to his followers and you'll get some idea of what Putin means to a lot of Russians. (Please note, I'm not saying I personally think comparing Putin to those figures is a great example, but rather it gives you an idea of how many Russians feel about him.)

[Ashnazg]

Most people shitposting against Putin and his government are merely parroting the drivel that gets spouted by a bunch of neocon websites, and can be safely ignored as lacking any actual insight into what's going on there.

[Blur4stuff]

Any defense of Putin falls flat due to the most basic fact that he's still in charge. He has been for a very long time now. Kids have been born and graduated high school since he took over. If it was any kind of democracy and not a dictatorship then he wouldn't have been controlling the country for so long.

And of course there's no end in sight. It's not like he's retiring. How many more years is he going to be president/prime minister? He's already in dictator territory and that only becomes more evident the longer this goes on.

Just comparing it to the US it's like Putin has served over four terms already and will likely make it five or six unless there's a coup. If you want to defend Putin and Russia and you like a strong man dictator then you can have that opinion, obviously. But it's just silly to pretend that it isn't what it is.

[Shalcker]

Any defense of Putin falls flat due to the most basic fact that he's still in charge. He has been for a very long time now. Kids have been born and graduated high school since he took over. If it was any kind of democracy and not a dictatorship then he wouldn't have been controlling the country for so long.

Yeah, Merkel totally has to go, i agree.

[Blur4stuff]

Yeah, Merkel totally has to go, i agree.

Putin has been in power longer than her and we all know Merkel hasn't been doing what Putin's done to keep that power.

We also know there's no realistic end to Putin's power without a coup or him just dying of natural causes. It's no different than a dictatorship.

[Shalcker]

Putin has been in power longer than her and we all know Merkel hasn't been doing what Putin's done to keep that power.

She is in power for 12 years at this point without any breaks; Putin for about 13 (with four-year break from being President).

They are quite comparable.

Democratic systems can hold people in power for that long - that is a fact.

We also know there's no realistic end to Putin's power without a coup or him just dying of natural causes. It's no different than a dictatorship.

Actually there is realistic end to his power - him not applying for re-elections next time. That is all it takes.

[Easo]

Putin would win crushingly anyway, even without any kind of falsification.
So why is he worried about this fool? Because he obviously is. There ALWAYS is an excuse to block him in some kind of way.

[Tackhisis]

There ALWAYS is an excuse to block him in some kind of way.

So in your opinion, Putin should break the law and give an illegal and invalid command to register a convicted felon as a presidential candidate?

[Easo]

So in your opinion, Putin should break the law and give an illegal and invalid command to register a convicted felon as a presidential candidate?

I have little faith in that conviction, or that it wasn't at least partially political. Be honest and tell me - you trust Russia's judiciary system to make true, independent decisions based upon law and free of outside influence?

[Shalcker]

I have little faith in that conviction, or that it wasn't at least partially political. Be honest and tell me - you trust Russia's judiciary system to make true, independent decisions based upon law and free of outside influence?

In this case law itself is outside influence; this particular restriction is only a few years old, passed by Duma to target "undesirables" with popular support.

So there is no need for additional pressure as long as law is followed.

[Blur4stuff]

This thread feels like arguing with someone that believes the Earth is flat and another person that's paid to argue that the Earth is flat.

[rda]

This thread feels like arguing with someone that believes the Earth is flat and another person that's paid to argue that the Earth is flat.

That's why I stopped.

I get playing devil's advocates and whatnot, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to be butting heads for what is going to be a very long time (because the other side is at best not really looking for data, just for confirmation of biases, and at worst trolling) on a gaming forum no less.

- - - Updated - - -

So in your opinion, Putin should break the law and give an illegal and invalid command to register a convicted felon as a presidential candidate?

Oh, damn, I just said I am not going to do it, yet here we go. OK, one more time.

I don't know if you are familiar with what happened, but here it is:

* Navalny was charged with BS (read the case if you want to know why I am calling the charges BS, I believe there are short summaries), the Russian courts said he is guilty.
* Navalny progressively appealed all the way to an international court.
* The international court reviewed the case and said that it is BS and that Russian courts have to fix it.
* The original decision convicting Navalny had to be thrown away and it was.
* A couple of days after, the Russian courts copy-pasted the decision (quite literally, in big portions) that was thrown away and proclaimed that they "reviewed" the case and made a "new" decision and found Navalny guilty.

So, all they did is crossed their previous decision, then stamped a copy of it.

They can repeat this BS ad infinitum. It's precisely the point that what they are doing is BS. I don't know how anyone can call it "law".

[Shalcker]

I get playing devil's advocates and whatnot, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to be butting heads for what is going to be a very long time (because the other side is at best not really looking for data, just for confirmation of biases, and at worst trolling) on a gaming forum no less.

More like you don't want your own biases to be refuted.

* Navalny was charged with BS (read the case if you want to know why I am calling the charges BS, I believe there are short summaries), the Russian courts said he is guilty.

It is classic middle-man scheme with no added value that was only able to be enacted due to Navalny connections with local governor Belyikh.

Navalny himself uncovered plenty of similar corruption.

* Navalny progressively appealed all the way to an international court.
* The international court reviewed the case and said that it is BS and that Russian courts have to fix it.

EHRC ruled that due to procedural violations case should be re-litigated.

* The original decision convicting Navalny had to be thrown away and it was.
* A couple of days after, the Russian courts copy-pasted the decision (quite literally, in big portions) that was thrown away and proclaimed that they "reviewed" the case and made a "new" decision and found Navalny guilty.

As requested by EHRC, case was re-litigated with no procedural violations this time. Conviction remained the same as no facts of the case changed.

So, all they did is crossed their previous decision, then stamped a copy of it.
They can repeat this BS ad infinitum. It's precisely the point that what they are doing is BS. I don't know how anyone can call it "law".

You should occasionally look for opposing facts, not just Navalny explanations of his own case.