Can we merge these three BM crybaby threads which are up at the same time?

[Azortharion]

I don't pretend to be some genius, most people learn the basics at school.

I didn't start an argument, I was just pointing out the flaws of your logic, and someone else's. I don't personally subscribe to the idea that difficulty = DPS or any variation thereof, so we agree on that one.

I don't really lose arguments that often - because I try to pick arguments where I think I can contribute, unlike a lot of people in this thread regurgitating points that have been debunked or otherwise rebutted several pages ago, everyone thinks they know something that everyone else doesn't. That's also why I am not interested in the "Should BM be buffed" argument at all. Partly because I have no strong opinion on the matter, partly because I have nothing to offer that others haven't already said. That doesn't mean I can't point out the flaws of the people who participate. I've been banned from the forums, not for losing arguments though, which makes it pretty irrelevant, so I assume you just brought it up to try and attack me, which might make you look smarter, but I think everyone sees through that. Who I am or what I have done in the past doesn't in any way change the validity of what I am saying, positively or negatively, so why bring it up?

The "route" your arguments take is really bad and it's not doing the thread any favours.

1. When talking about BM being bad a while ago, you used 99th percentile Heroic parses to demonstrate that BM was on the bottom of nearly every fight. This is completely worthless data for this sort of comparison, because 99th percentile HC parses are basically representing guild runs or Mythic-geared players clearing Heroic for the memes/for titanforges or something else. In other words, people for whom Heroic DPS numbers don't matter. It doesn't make sense to look at the top 1% in general unless you're trying to look specifically for "damage potential", but the vibe I get is that you're more bothered about the DPS that BM is actually doing. Otherwise we could just sim everything for the "potential".
2. You said "MM is no harder than BM at AoE, which is where the biggest damage disparity exists". This is correct, but like I've mentioned, it's irrelevant to everyone with half a brain. The only people you address with that is the people who think that difficulty = DPS, but you fundamentally disagree with those people, so who're you trying to convince?
3. This is a nitpick, but you said that "BM AoE has RNG in AoE due to Titan's Thunder". You know as well as I do that this is a weightless statement, because Titan's Thunder is such a minute part of BM AoE that it's not particularly relevant in the big picture, while Marked Shot contributes 40-45% to MM's AoE damage and is also tied to RNG, therefore making it more impactful. Of course, on average, MM still does way more AoE damage, but if MM runs out of procs and has an unlucky streak on a particular pack, then BM can beat MM on that pack quite handsomely. There is a certain value to consistency. Note that I am not saying this makes BM better than MM in any way.

The main point you tend to make is that BM AoE sucks - yeah, I agree, and that statement barely needs any qualification, you can look at any WCL data and draw that conclusion. But it's not being outdamaged by 100% by any other spec in Mythic+ dungeons, for example. Probably not even 50%. There are very high-end BM Mythic+ Hunters that you could ask, you'll probably find that they are competitive in their respective groups, not ridiculous amounts behind.

I think that was enough MMO-C for me for a weekend, have a sweet day.

[ydraw]

I don't pretend to be some genius, most people learn the basics at school.

I didn't start an argument, I was just pointing out the flaws of your logic, and someone else's.

But you actually didn't point out any flaws in my logic. You just said AOE dps doesn't matter in raids. That's debatable but there's no need to debate it. If AOE dps doesn't matter in raids, then there's no reason to not buff it since it can't, logically, affect raid spec balance.

AOE dps does matter very much in M+, and BM hunters are lagging behind every other ranged spec in the game on that front.

You said "MM is no harder than BM at AoE, which is where the biggest damage disparity exists". This is correct, but like I've mentioned, it's irrelevant to everyone with half a brain. The only people you address with that is the people who think that difficulty = DPS, but you fundamentally disagree with those people, so who're you trying to convince?

It should be fairly obvious that I'm trying to convince the people who believe difficulty=DPS. Because it doesn't really make sense to try to convince people who already agree with me.

But it's not being outdamaged by 100% by any other spec in Mythic+ dungeons, for example. Probably not even 50%.

Just an assertion really. Here's some data for Lower Karazhan, the most AOE intensive M+ dungeon.

The top ranking BM hunter did around 2.4 million DPS.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=BeastMastery

Top MM hunter did 3.2 million
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=Marksmanship

The top ranking aff lock did 3.8million
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Affliction

Top Boomkin 3.2mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...d&spec=Balance

WW Monk 3.9 mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Windwalker

Elemental Shaman 3.1 mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Elemental

Certainly more than 50% difference between the top BM Hunter and the top ranked Monk, Warlock etc. And those figures take into account the entire run, not just the AOE packs. The difference on AOE packs is likely even larger.

[Eapoe]

But you actually didn't point out any flaws in my logic. You just said AOE dps doesn't matter in raids. That's debatable but there's no need to debate it. If AOE dps doesn't matter in raids, then there's no reason to not buff it since it can't, logically, affect raid spec balance.

AOE dps does matter very much in M+, and BM hunters are lagging behind every other ranged spec in the game on that front.



It should be fairly obvious that I'm trying to convince the people who believe difficulty=DPS. Because it doesn't really make sense to try to convince people who already agree with me.



Just an assertion really. Here's some data for Lower Karazhan, the most AOE intensive M+ dungeon.

The top ranking BM hunter did around 2.4 million DPS.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=BeastMastery

Top MM hunter did 3.2 million
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=Marksmanship

The top ranking aff lock did 3.8million
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Affliction

Top Boomkin 3.2mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...d&spec=Balance

WW Monk 3.9 mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Windwalker

Elemental Shaman 3.1 mill
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Elemental

Certainly more than 50% difference between the top BM Hunter and the top ranked Monk, Warlock etc. And those figures take into account the entire run, not just the AOE packs. The difference on AOE packs is likely even larger.

Yet BM outdoes Arms, Fury, Destro, Demo, Enhancement, Outlaw, Ass, almost all Spriests, Ret, Frost, most Arcane, some Fire, Feral, Havic (surprisingly), Unholy, and almost every single Frost DK (1 on there is pretty high). Those are the same logs you linked, going thru each spec. That's 16 specs it does better than, 6 of which are all rdps. Why aren't you asking for a buff to all of their AoE as well?
I don't buy into the difficulty=dps, but there is something to mobility=dps. BM has true unlimited mobility to all the other rdps specs. Part of the issue comes from Bkizzard encounter design. In a high intensive movement fight, BM would not only catch-up but probably beat almost all of them; but, those encounters don't exist right now. Could Blizz buff ST to help that? Sure. Current raid setup there are not that many high AoE fights. Out of 11 bosses there only exists 3. In m+, as pointed out by Azor and your own lots you linked, BM AoE is not terrible. Sure, it could potentially use a buff, but from the link you posted it is doing higher than almost all other dps specs in game.

[Azortharion]

That's cherrypickin' for ya.

[ydraw]

Yet BM outdoes Arms, Fury, Destro, Demo, Enhancement, Outlaw, Ass, almost all Spriests, Ret, Frost, most Arcane, some Fire, Feral, Havic (surprisingly), Unholy, and almost every single Frost DK (1 on there is pretty high). Those are the same logs you linked, going thru each spec. That's 16 specs it does better than, 6 of which are all rdps. Why aren't you asking for a buff to all of their AoE as well?.

This is the hunter forum, and this thread is about BM damage. That's why.

The fact there are other specs that are in just as bad a place as BM is not an argument against buffing BM. The disparity in AOE damage between the haves and the have nots is unacceptable in an expansion where M+ is a thing.

Someone has to be last, but being 1.5 million DPS lower than the top specs is not acceptable.

In a high intensive movement fight, BM would not only catch-up but probably beat almost all of them; but, those encounters don't exist right now.

And they will never exists, because if they did, most ranged specs would be unplayable in those fights. So they won't make them. Just as they can't make an encounter that requires every spec to use an immunity to survive, because not all specs have them. That is why BM's niche of "ultimate mobility" is pointless, since they can't realistically make encounters where it matters.

[Eapoe]

This is the hunter forum, and this thread is about BM damage. That's why.

The fact there are other specs that are in just as bad a place as BM is not an argument against buffing BM. The disparity in AOE damage between the haves and the have nots is unacceptable in an expansion where M+ is a thing.

Someone has to be last, but being 1.5 million DPS lower than the top specs is not acceptable.



And they will never exists, because if they did, most ranged specs would be unplayable in those fights. So they won't make them. Just as they can't make an encounter that requires every spec to use an immunity to survive, because not all specs have them. That is why BM's niche of "ultimate mobility" is pointless, since they can't realistically make encounters where it matters.

You state it's a BM forum, link direct links comparing other specs, and then when those links are used against you, instead of trying to refute the evidence you linked, you argue it's a BM forum. That's a deflecting argument. I simply asked are you asking for buffs to all the other specs? Are you going into official forums as well as all mmo-c class forums and asking for buffs?
As you are correct about a fight designed with unlimited mobility, you are correct; however, we have had close and BM has stayed close to all the immobile specs due to it, if not actually overtaking them on some fights.
However, you argue every rdps spec is better, and your own posts show that to be untrue. It's AoE is actually higher than most rdps specs.

[ydraw]

However, you argue every rdps spec is better, and your own posts show that to be untrue. It's AoE is actually higher than most rdps specs.

No, it isn't. Where do you get this shit from? Just go look at Antoran High Command or any AOE fight from ToS onwards and tell me which rdps spec is lower than BM.

You state it's a BM forum, link direct links comparing other specs, and then when those links are used against you, instead of trying to refute the evidence you linked, you argue it's a BM forum.

He didn't ask me to "refute the evidence" though. He asked me why I'm not asking for buffs for other classes and specs. The answer to that is pretty obvious - this is the hunter forum and this thread is about BM.

Also, I'm not "asking" anyone for buffs since that is not how buffs work. I am arguing against people who are trying to justify why BM should always be the lowest DPS class in the game, despite the complete lack of any evidence that the current state of BM is a deliberate design decision rather than just the same old lag in balancing that the game has always suffered from.

The history of the game shows that there's never been any relationship between either ease of play or mobility when balancing DPS. BM was a competitive AOE spec for the first 3 raid tiers of the expansion but has fallen off in the final 2 raid tiers. Happens every tier, specs move up and down the totem pole for various reasons. The problem is that when it happens in the final tier of an expansion it can sometimes take much longer to get fixed, since there is unlikely to be another thorough balancing pass before BFA is launched.

[threads]

holy shit stop whining on the forum, swap spec to MM, and play the fucking game if you want to do more damage.

[ydraw]

holy shit stop whining on the forum, swap spec to MM, and play the fucking game if you want to do more damage.

If you find discussion of spec balance annoying, why come in the thread dedicated to it?

[omazdex]

MM is da best! ... I mean that's my opinion, it's fun.