Allied Race Introduction Cutscenes

[Austilias]

WoW has had crappy writing ever since its inception. Basically all baddies were people we knew from Warcraft 3 made into gear piñatas. Kel'thuzad, leader of a faction that destroyed the north of the EK? 25 loot-crazed nobodies roll over him like its nothing. Kael'thas, leader of the blood elves who wanted to do everything to protect his people? Joins the Burning Legion and hands his people over to them. Illidan, anti hero who was just chilling in Shadowmoon Valley? Nope, we have to go kill him.

It wasn't to bad from Classic up to (and including) WOTLK because they still had most of the semi-decent Warcraft/RPG writing/writers/lore to go by.

Went downhill after that.

[ornichi]

And you would still be bitching about high elves then, so i think it was a good tradeoff you got a twisted high elf now.

Well I never wanted high elves in the first place.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, they have in common bitching about Tyrande, when she saved their asses. Liadrin has short memory when she villainize her, even though blood elves were saved by tyrande in lordaeron. And she has right to be angry at nighborne, when they, as a highborne locked themselves and didnt fight in the war of the ancients.

They also saved the world by sealing away the second portal.

there is a part of liandrins dialogue that makes no sense to me,

"The sindorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world"

Where was this? When did the sindorei take part in world saving while the kaldorei didnt?

Preventing Legion incursions through Council of Tirisfal. 2.4. Arguably, also Outland campaign with Kerrilldank.

Diplomacy matters. While Tyrande was getting snobby with the Nightfallen, Liadrin was out there hustling for the Horde and sympathizing with them. Shit like that tends to come up when you're looking at potential allies.

She wasn't just snobby. She compared Thalyssra to some of the worst leaders in Elven history. First to Ellisande, against whom Thalyssra was already leading a second insurrection attempt at the time of Tyrande's bullshitting AND who tried to have Thalyssra killed. Then to Azshara, against whom all Nightborne turned during WotA when they sealed away the second portal. She'd be just as ridiculous if he asked Farondis the Azshara question.

Everyone knows where would belves and their sunwell be if it wasn't for Alliance's help.

Pretty much where they are now, just still addicted to magic? Because the Sunwell was already reignited by Kael. Velen just purified it by adding Holy magic to the mix.

Besides, what Thalyssra shows in the cutscene with Tyrande is just reused audio from the Suramar campaign, nothing new, only confirming she made the nighborne pact with the horde soloely based on her personal feeling she got from one sentence with some mean words in it, not even representing Alliance's stance as whole, but only Tyrande's personal "disclaimer".

Given how they join the Horde almost exclusively due to the Blood Elves and not the Horde as a whole, great point you got there.

She's also completely ignoring the fact that it was a night elf who cured their addiction, in fact she sounds like she somehow achieved it by herself - and Liadrin joins with her tales of world saving battles and other tales that didn't happen, in fact quite the opposite. After all, why do belves have green eyes? And what did they do to that one poor naaru?

What does the part in bold have to do with anything? And the Night Elf that cured the Nightborne had no affiliation with Darnassus for millennia. Also, 2.4 is a thing, so Blood Elves were most certainly heavily involved in saving the world.

After watching the Nightborne in-game cinematic, I was very disappointed. "The night elves' arrogance and mistrust." Yeah, like the Nightborne didn't do anything to deserve such mistrust. I mean, it's not as if the Nightborne walled themselves off in the first Legion invasion and then joined the Legion in the second invasion OH WAIT...

They saved the world by sealing away the humongous portal that combined with the one at the Well of Eternity would cause Azeroth to be overrun before they walled themselves off. And in the current invasion the group of Nightborne Tyrande was talking to was in open rebellion against those who allied with the Legion, which almost cost the person she was talking to her life. There's this thing called nuance. Otherwise you could use Fandral as a reason to talk about how Night Elves deserve mistrust.

And then Lady Liadrin: "The night elves hid in dens and trees while my people fought to save the world." Yeah, it's not like her people walled themselves off from the first Alliance against the invading orcs, then many years later captured and tortured a Naaru, and it's not as if the Night Elves sacrificed the World Tree and their immortality to save Azeroth from the Legion's invasion OH WAIT...

I will lose a lot of respect for Lady Liadrin if that conversation goes live the way it currently is.

Walled themselves off from the Alliance? Are Blood Elves from Gilneas now? And seriously people, how is M'uru an argument here? Is it mutually exclusive with saving anything now? I didn't see any Night Elves at Quel'danas during the previous invasion, yet there were plenty of Blood Elves fighting to stop it, despite having captured M'uru in the past. Whoah, so it's not mutually exclusive, which makes M'uru an utterly moot point?

[gerlach1025]

there is a part of liandrins dialogue that makes no sense to me,

"The sindorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world"

Where was this? When did the sindorei take part in world saving while the kaldorei didnt?

I thought they helped the Alliance fight the Scourge and the Horde until a faction of the alliance began being racist to them in Warcraft 3.

[Mehrunes]

So basically Tyrande is a bitch (quite a bit rightfully so) towards Nightborne (no surprise, since she's been like that since her introduction in wc3)

Liadrin is a hypocrite (hello War of the Ancients, 3rd War). Also wasn't it blood elves that sabotaged Exodar, attempted to summon Kil'jaeden in Sunwell, enslaved a Naaru and fed off a fel energy??

Are you guys having a competition for the most irrelevant "counterargument" to what Liadrin said or something?

As for Thalyssra... Their people betrayed Kaldorei back in WotA and now even joined Legion and she gets pissed off when Tyrande mentions this... Then just disregard that both Horde AND Alliance helped her to regain Suramar from Legion (that they willingfully surrendered it to) and throws in there that Nightborne will no longer be slaves to the Nightwell and then join the first offer from a race that is still addicted to the similar well, dissregarding any diplomatic meeting with an actual leaders of the Alliance... Yea so who's beeing too walled off here...

They didn't have any allegiance to the group of Night Elves that became the modern group for there to be a betrayal. Who they actually betrayed was Azshara (i.e. Tyrande et al's enemy) when they sealed the portal beneath the Temple of Elune, saving the world, Tyrande's ass included. And Thalyssra was in open rebellion after a previous failed coup attempt that intended to prevent handing Suramar over to the Legion. Again, nuance is a thing. And Blood Elves were never as addicted as the Nightborne.

By itself, I don't really have much of an issue with the Nightborne siding with the Blood Elves and the Horde. My issue is two-fold: how Thalyssra actually thinks the mistrust and wariness of the Night Elves toward her and the Nightborne are completely unfounded, as if she wasn't there when the Nightborne shielded themselves off in the first invasion and left the rest of Azeroth to fend for themselves, ten thousand years ago; and how Lady Liadrin, who until now has always been the more level-headed and honest of the Blood Elves, now suddenly spills lies about both her people and the night elves to Thalyssra.

Except Thalyssra doesn't say a word about how well founded that mistrust is or not. And that aspect matters squat to considering alliance with that group. It's not like Thalyssra considering that mistrust well founded would make the prospect of the alliance somehow better. If anything, it makes it even worse, because you can at least try to dispel the misconceptions that lead to unfounded mistrust. So let's go with your version where the Nightborne didn't save the world, Tyrande's sorry ass included, before they decided to recuse themselves from the war and that they were just pure traitors (to the people they owed no allegiance to, but whatever). Whoopty doo, you are creating a self-defeating argument. Because what is Thalyssra supposed to do to remove that mistrust in that case? Kidnap a bronze dragon and force it to alter history?

As for Liadrin, yay, Tyrande helped Blood Elves a bit during TFT. But then Night Elves sent an invasion force to Ghostlands because Tyrande is the bestest diplomat ever, while the Alliance was pretending they want the Blood Elves to rejoin (while secretly trying to fuck them over). That kinda shat on any goodwill between the two races. And what lies? Did the Blood Elves not save the world at some point? They prevented many significant Legion incursions through Dalaran and Council of Tirisfal. Were Night Elves doing anything at the time? No, they slept. Were Night Elves involved in Isle of Quel'danas campaign? No. Does what Liadrin said somehow exclude Night Elves ever doing anything? Nope.

Suramar stood besides the Legion for a time, then, Elisandre changed sides and closed the portal on the temple of Elune.Which is nice.

But then they refused to help the rest of the resistance force in fighting the Legion, and hid themselfs in the shield.

Thalyssra may not be the one who made the choice, but she at that moment spoke for the Nightborne.

The group that was in open rebellion against those who made that choice. So I'll mirror @Xuen's question: what mistakes? Because Elissande's mistakes are Thalyssra's as much as Fanrdral's stunt as the Twilight Prophet is Tyrande's "mistake".

My fave thing about the Nightbourne ones, is how she proves Tyrande right.

"How dare she talk to me as if I might betray her like I once did..." while swearing to basically kill night elves.

You can't betray someone who you have no allegiance to. How comes Alliance players can't grasp the basics of words? And she swears to fight for the Horde against its enemies. As the currently datamined Silithus' quests indicate, Alliance once again is the one to actually strike first. So if anyone was "betraying" others here, it'd be the Night Elves.

And if Nightborne chose to become the Night Elves' enemies simply because Tyrande didn't sacrificed her people for these people who abandoned them during the WotA then they can simply go to hell. They are not some golden price to be won like they think they are. For their personal goal of expanding beyond Suramar they chose to take a side and are going to kill people who did nothing to them and take their homeland.

Nightborne logic: "If one person helps you sympathetically and one helps you reluctantly, it is fine to side with the first and kill the other one!"
The reason of the second's behavior which is their own fault aside.

And prey tell where and when have Nightborne expressed that goal? And according to datamined Silithus quests, Alliance is once again the side to start violent actions. So, depending on when the Nightborne join, their logic is either "it's fine to kill the people who attack us" or "if the group that helped us reluctantly in the past (while comparing us to Elf Nazis) attacks the group that helped us sympathetically should help the latter".

When you pick a side in a total war you automatically declare war on the other and since Horde is going to take all Night Elven homeland in BfA, it indicates that the Nightborne back stabbed the Night Elves even harder this time because of their own selfish reasons. Sorry but what the Nightborne did to the Night Elves is absolute unfairness. It will show them bad not the Night Elves. If Tyrande killed half of the nightborne population in Suramar, yes that was justified but she simply appeared and helped them while being cold and aided them retake back their city and in the end she wished them to survive. You don't repay this by becoming her enemy and kill her people.

All fine and dandy except that you're still pulling their reasons out of your ass, still ignoring the chronology of the conflict as it has been currently presented and are assuming the Nightborne join the Horde only after the war has began based on nothing concrete. Also, Blood Elves helped the Night Elves (and vice versa) during TFT. Night Elves repaid that by sending an invasion force to Ghostlands while the Alliance as a whole sent spies and saboteurs under the guise of diplomacy. So even if all the above misconceptions of yours were actually right, it'd simply be karmic justice for Night Elves' 2.0 transgressions.

No, she's just serving someone who literally tried to enslave the queen of Valkyr and wants to wage war the moment she gets back from war against the legion.

Which is still not her action and isn't nearly comparable. And Alliance starts hostilities in Silithus. After they started hostilities in Legion already, because they wanted to wage war in the middle of the war against the Legion. But that is to be ignored because reasons.

OK from what I understood from the logic of some people: If one person helps you sympathetically and one helps you reluctantly, it is fine to side with the first and kill the other one, especially if you betrayed them once in the past.

Whether you like it or not, the big picture is that Night Elves didn't do anything to the Nightborne, even (indirectly) helped them while Nightborne back stabbed them once during the WotA and one more time by turning to their enemy.

Given how Nightborne don't join to do specifically that and potentially join before the war in which, as it stands now, Alliance initiates the hostilities (which following your train of thought would be Night Elves betraying the Nightborne), spare the fake outrage. It's misplaced even for its fakeness. And Nightborne still didn't betray other Night Elves during WotA because not only did they owe them no allegiance, but they saved them anyway by closing the temple portal and then shielded up after their already ravaged city was in grave danger from a Pit Lord with no other option in sight.

[Ielenia]

They saved the world by sealing away the humongous portal that combined with the one at the Well of Eternity would cause Azeroth to be overrun before they walled themselves off.

The Nightwell was already sealed off through the use of the Pillars of Creation. The giant shield over the city was to protect themselves, not the world.

And in the current invasion the group of Nightborne Tyrande was talking to was in open rebellion against those who allied with the Legion, which almost cost the person she was talking to her life. There's this thing called nuance.

There's this thing called "nuance" and then there's this thing called "hey every single member of this race left us to fight for ourselves, so what are the chances that this one won't do what every single member of her race did in the past?"

Otherwise you could use Fandral as a reason to talk about how Night Elves deserve mistrust.

There is a huge difference between judging an entire race over the actions of a handful of members of said race, and judging a member of a certain race by the actions of her entire race.

Walled themselves off from the Alliance? Are Blood Elves from Gilneas now?

The High Elves pulled themselves from the first Alliance during the Orc invasion, not wanting to bother with the affairs of the humans. They only joined the Alliance again when the orcs invaded their lands... and then promptly withdrew themselves from the Alliance again when the orcs stopped being a problem.

And seriously people, how is M'uru an argument here? Is it mutually exclusive with saving anything now?

I'm not saying it is, but it is mutually exclusive with a claim that your race is somehow morally superior to another.

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They didn't have any allegiance to the group of Night Elves that became the modern group for there to be a betrayal.

Um... yeah, they do: night elves were originally all highborne. So much so that Suramar is the birthplace of some night elves you might have heard about: Illidan and Malfurion Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, and Jarod and Maiev Shadowsong.

[Darktbs]

The group that was in open rebellion against those who made that choice. So I'll mirror @Xuen's question: what mistakes? Because Elissande's mistakes are Thalyssra's as much as Fanrdral's stunt as the Twilight Prophet is Tyrande's "mistake".

The mistake fallen into the representant of the Suramar people at the moment.

If Thalyssra didn't spoke that she was agaisn't not join the rebelion in the War of the Ancients its her fault for not saying so.

No one is blaming her for allying with the demons but to what Suramar did 10.000 years ago which is not doing anything to stop the Legion.

Your example is a individual doing something bad and the leader taking responsibility, what Tyrande is angry is what the whole of Suramar did or rather what they did not.

[Kathranis]

Nevertheless, it still shows how big of an asspull their allegiance with the blood elves was.

We didn't see them building up relations during our assault on Suramar (or in that matter any conflict with Tyrande), it ended up as a sudden surprise during last weeks of Argus campaign.Hence Alliance players consider it to be an utter bullshit.

That's completely untrue.

The dialogue flashback they showed in the new Nightborne cutscene was taken from the Suramar Campaign quests in 7.1, from the scripted dialogue after the Alliance quest "Take Me To Your Leader."

Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed.

When speaking to the assembled racial leaders as an Alliance player, this is the dialogue you get from each:

Tyrande: I am glad to see a friendly face on this battlefield, <name>. It is... hard... for me to once again walk in Suramar. Ten thousand years have passed since my feet last felt the grass of this land. Back then, we were fleeing the Burning Legion. I never believed I would return to the place of my birth to wrest it from the grasp of those I once believed were my people.

Vereesa: I never thought I would share a camp with the kaldorei. But, desperate times, desperate measures.

Liadrin: Your leaders need to get their heads in the game. Vereesa is so obsessed with her desire for revenge against the Horde that we cannot trust our flank to her. Tyrande is a sentinel. She know little of war on this type of battlefield. While her scouting is useful she should recuse the Kal'dorei from the main assault. My blood knights are the only ones prepared to carry the weight of this conflict.

Rommath: Hmph. Your armies are chaotic and unorderly. Fortunately our blood knights and magisters will form the core of this assault, striking true into the heart of the city.

After the Horde version of that quest, you instead get this dialogue:

Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Lady Liadrin says: I understand the struggles of the Nightfallen echo our own, First Arcanist. Addiction.... betrayal...
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: There is a cure for our addiction, but it will take time to administer it to all of our people. First we must depose Elisande and cleanse Suramar of the Legion's filth.
Lady Liadrin says: Cleanse it we shall. The sin'dorei bring righteous fury upon our enemies.
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: And the shal'dorei are stronger than you expect. When the time comes, we will fight beside you.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed.

And when speaking to the assembled leaders as a Horde player, you instead get this dialogue:

Tyrande: When I let you take the Tears of Elune, I assumed the next time we would see each other would be at the final battle with the Legion. I did not expect to see you in the company of mana addicts at the footsteps of the city of my birth. Speak quickly, <race>. I am not in the mood for Thalyssra's petitions.

Vereesa: For the record, I counseled against trusting any Horde in this campaign. I have lost a husband and a King to the treachery of the Horde. I see no reason to trust you now or ever.

Liadrin: Few understand the plight of the Nightfallen better than the Sin'dorei. My heart goes out to them. But Thalyssra must understand that there is a difference between an insurrection and a war. Until now, her rebels have got by with a few skirmishes here and there. But they have not been hardened by battle as we blood elves have.

Rommath: The Nightwell. An unimaginable font of arcane power. What would have happened to the sin'dorei if we had such a source?... No matter. We have forged our own destiny. Our glory is our own, and we are no longer slaves to our hungers. This siege is a momentous occasion, <name>. We stand with long-lost kin, our enemies, against some of the most powerful magi in the world. Our actions will determine the future of all elf-kind.

Can you really say this wasn't foreshadowed ever since the start of the Insurrection storyline when the elven races assembled to retake Suramar?

I don't disagree that they could have done better with the storytelling -- made the rifts deepen more dramatically, told the story more overtly -- but it's obvious that this was the plan from the start. It's likely they already knew they were doing Allied Races back when 7.1 was being developed.

[Minikin]

I thought they helped the Alliance fight the Scourge and the Horde until a faction of the alliance began being racist to them in Warcraft 3.

yea they did. i was just more wondering the choice of dialogue blizzard made. the way they make her say it seems like the night elves for ages did nothing while the sindori did

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They also saved the world by sealing away the second portal.




Preventing Legion incursions through Council of Tirisfal. 2.4. Arguably, also Outland campaign with Kerrilldank.

but council was humans too no? its just the wording that seems a bit.....mmo champion like lol

[Magnagarde]

When you phrase it like that, it's not like she has many options but joining the Horde, since you seem to be of the opinion that the night elves shouldn't accept or trust them.

The point is that they shouldn't have joined either side. It is not like the night elves and the Alliance came there to conquer Suramar. They helped liberate it and packed their bags, as should the Horde have done.

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Idk, i honestly feel like all that Nightborne+Belf communication is forced and artifical. There is just so much bad writing behind this "alliance"

The reason why you feel like it is forced is because it is forced. It is a story written to justify an out of character norm of parallel elf additions to both factions. Both the void elves and the Nightborne are enforcing this about eachother.

[Icaras]

The thing that I still don't like about the Nightborne is that, especially from an Alliance player point of view, the Nightborne joining the Horde makes no sense. "the champion that saved them", its you, an Alliance member (There is no "Horde champion" for an Alliance player, afterall).

"So what your saying is that despite my saving you and helping you to get back to normal from being withered, becoming exalted with your people and getting my friends together to kick both our enemies out of the Nighthold...you're stabbing me in the back because Tyrande was mean to you once."

"Yes, that's right."

"But no me. And not any other leader of the Alliance. Just because Tyrande was mean to you ONCE"

"Yes, it doesn't make sense but HERP DERP!! *Shrugs*

At least with the highmountain, dark iron(Who are technically already in the alliance) and the lightforged, you can excuse them as they're joining the rest of their race. Nightborne are ignoring theirs because one person (Who isn't even full leader of her own race, let alone the faction!) was mean to her. Boggles the mind how shoddy this is.