Need help with one of our Guild rogues.

[Merixa]

Hey there. I don't know anything about rogues in enough detail to help our current new one improve. I was hoping some experienced rogues here could take a look at their logs and give some feedback. I will be showing them this thread to read through themself.

Sinaria: Assassination
Armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...gramar/sinaria

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Y2mrWPwZ1xcgQ9y6

Any help much appreciated!

[Deleted]

Poor uptimes on bleedings and a bad usage of kingsbane seem to be the biggest issues. It looks like Stiletto just smashes his keys without preparing for kingsbane properly, pooling is the key word.

Sinaria has a horrible itemization so what do u exactly expect from him? He still performs better than Stiletto tho.

[Ichology]

Was gonna say, the thread was made to help Sinaria, but from those logs alone he's outperforming your other rogue given their gear. Not that he's playing perfectly by any means, but I'd worry more about redirecting the other one.

[Deleted]

While I don't disagree with what has been said before: Sinaria quite often uses Mutilate on 4cp, which leads to him wasting tons of combo points. As assasination, you don't mutilate on 4 or 5 cp but finish. This leads to him having a lot less finishers than he probably should.

[Merixa]

Poor uptimes on bleedings and a bad usage of kingsbane seem to be the biggest issues. It looks like Stiletto just smashes his keys without preparing for kingsbane properly, pooling is the key word.

Sinaria has a horrible itemization so what do u exactly expect from him? He still performs better than Stiletto tho.

Thank you for your response. I will point them both in the direction of this post.

[Deleted]

While I don't disagree with what has been said before: Sinaria quite often uses Mutilate on 4cp, which leads to him wasting tons of combo points. As assasination, you don't mutilate on 4 or 5 cp but finish. This leads to him having a lot less finishers than he probably should.

This is pretty true as well. I didn't go into detail on Sinaria but yeah, he wastes too many cp's. I'd suggest to read a proper guide to learn the basics. Stilettos cp management is decent but as i said, he has to improve on using kb properly which is all about timing and pooling and managing your ressources right.

[Hamburglar - Perenolde]

I would tell your rogues to not overthink things when it comes to rotation:

When Toxic Blade is up, have 3-4 CP (Vigor) or 4-5 CP (Deeper Strat), hit it, hit envenom, then hit Kingsbane. (some do KB then evenom).

When Toxic Blade is up, but Kingsbane is still on cooldown for more than 3 sec, use Toxic blade and then Envenom. When Kingsbane is up and Toxic Blade is down for more than 3 second Cooldown, use Kingsbane and then Envenom.

Keep Rupture and Garrote up all the time.

That is our Single Target rotation...when Vendetta is up, use it. Look up opening rotation for Shoulder Leggos (if using) and start off with that.


As for their gear,

Sinaria has too much Haste, not enough crit. Haste = the worst secondary stat for Sin Rogues. If a Sin Rogue can get it down to 0%, that's a good thing.
Sinaria also needs better Legendaries. It appears Sinaria only has one and its not a great one...not bad, but not great, so that will effect Sinaria's DPS as well.

Stiletto I couldn't look up to see what gear that person has.

[GenericName]

he has to improve on using kb properly which is all about timing and pooling and managing your ressources right.

Would you care to elaborate on this? Most guides including Ravenholdt basically tell you to use it on cooldown while keeping Envenom and Surge of Toxins up for the duration, which is pretty easy by just doing the regular rotation and not overcapping CP.

[omeomorfismo]

Would you care to elaborate on this? Most guides including Ravenholdt basically tell you to use it on cooldown while keeping Envenom and Surge of Toxins up for the duration, which is pretty easy by just doing the regular rotation and not overcapping CP.

you have to use cds on cd. so you trying to pooling before the cds are ready.
for example, if toxic blade is ready in less than 10s you shouldnt envenom but wait with ideally 3-4 cp (but i even wait at 5) and then use toxic blade->envenom.
clearly if you are a 5 second and with full energy you still envenom to not waste energy

[elfporn]

Would you care to elaborate on this? Most guides including Ravenholdt basically tell you to use it on cooldown while keeping Envenom and Surge of Toxins up for the duration, which is pretty easy by just doing the regular rotation and not overcapping CP.

As omeomorfismo said, it’s all about resource management while juggling cooldowns, using them as they come, and syncing them properly when they align.

More important than surge of toxins (and envenom) is maintaining virulent poisons, luckily all 3 buffs are applied with envenom.

Basically, 1 envenom every 4 or 5 GCD’s will net the highest uptime of virulent poisons, but this should be done while using toxic blades as a burst window too. It takes careful energy management.

[Battlebeard]

Hey there. I don't know anything about rogues in enough detail to help our current new one improve. I was hoping some experienced rogues here could take a look at their logs and give some feedback. I will be showing them this thread to read through themself.

Sinaria: Assassination
Armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...gramar/sinaria

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Y2mrWPwZ1xcgQ9y6

Any help much appreciated!

Ok, saw armory and:

- Poor gear choice, mastery only at 164%, he/she should try get a lot more.
- Also lacking 4set or even old tier set (Fanged).
- One pretty bad trinket, stat sticks are okey but he/she should get something better.
- Terrible legendaries, he/she should get Boots+Wrist, Boots+Shoulders or Wrist+Shoulders
- No enchant on one ring and wrong enchant on the other one. Mastery > Crit!
- Wrong level 30 talent. He/she should get Nightstalker and not Subterfuge!!

[omeomorfismo]

Ok, saw armory and:

- Poor gear choice, mastery only at 164%, he/she should try get a lot more.
- Also lacking 4set or even old tier set (Fanged).
- One pretty bad trinket, stat sticks are okey but he/she should get something better.
- Terrible legendaries, he/she should get Boots+Wrist, Boots+Shoulders or Wrist+Shoulders
- No enchant on one ring and wrong enchant on the other one. Mastery > Crit!
- Wrong level 30 talent. He/she should get Nightstalker and not Subterfuge!!

subterfuge is bis for a plenty of assassination.
at least for me with bracer+boots

[elfporn]

Ok, saw armory and:

- Poor gear choice, mastery only at 164%, he/she should try get a lot more.
- Also lacking 4set or even old tier set (Fanged).
- One pretty bad trinket, stat sticks are okey but he/she should get something better.
- Terrible legendaries, he/she should get Boots+Wrist, Boots+Shoulders or Wrist+Shoulders
- No enchant on one ring and wrong enchant on the other one. Mastery > Crit!
- Wrong level 30 talent. He/she should get Nightstalker and not Subterfuge!!

i've got 163% mastery. But i also have 43% crit, 7.8% vers and the only haste i have is on my legendary bracers and boots.

164% mastery isn't low if your other stats aren't low too, it's just not 100% optimized - for me, i need rings/neck that is mastery heavy crit instead of balanced mastery crit.

But enough about me - sinaria's biggest problem with stats is haste. haste needs too be removed from all gear except legendaries. That's the number two priority after cleaning up the dps rotation. Mastery and vers are in a decent place, but crit is definitely not. And mastery is being propped up by a stat stick. The stat stick is acceptable, but should be replaced by an EoC or alternatively a shadow-singed fang/seeping scourgewing.

Tell him to run darkheart thicket and halls of valor to collect rings - both instances have two excellent rings, 1 each of crit heavy mastery and mastery heavy crit. Preference mastery heavy crit.

Mastery heavy crit gear is the number 1 priority in gear choices, followed by any combination of mastery/crit, and then anything without haste, preferably with mastery.

Also, those relics are atrocious. It's very easy to get master alchemy relics in every slot from antorus. With the relics i see, any ilvl master alch relic will be an upgrade. Start at lfr and run each tier till you get them in every slot. Master alch x3 with 1-2 balanced blades and/or 1-2 master ass for secondary traits. PK traits are still acceptable for M+ due to the altered aoe rotation with the t21 4set, but not optimal for current raid tier bosses.

tldr: work on the rotation while farming relics. Get rid of all the haste gear - bank it for outlaw if you like.

edit: Those legendary choices aren't optimal, but they are workable. To be clear, which legendaries you are using is not your biggest issue right now. Relics-->rotation-->gear-->legendaries.

[Battlebeard]

subterfuge is bis for a plenty of assassination.
at least for me with bracer+boots

It's not a useful talent unless you run Fanged Slayer set, which most doesn't do atm. Even with Bracer+Boots, Nightstalker is ahead.

[Deleted]

It's not a useful talent unless you run Fanged Slayer set, which most doesn't do atm. Even with Bracer+Boots, Nightstalker is ahead.

Is your knowledge based on noxxic.com?

[omeomorfismo]

It's not a useful talent unless you run Fanged Slayer set, which most doesn't do atm. Even with Bracer+Boots, Nightstalker is ahead.

im massively simulate my char with custom apl and without.
subterfuge is ahead, with the new standard apls even more

[Battlebeard]

Is your knowledge based on noxxic.com?

No. It's based on the following:

- Tests myself, in raids, on dummies etc etc.
- Most guides there is on the internet.
- ALL pro Rogues I have found play Nightstalker, including 3 raid rogues in world number 1 guild Method.

- - - Updated - - -

im massively simulate my char with custom apl and without.
subterfuge is ahead, with the new standard apls even more

Yeah, I guess YOU are correct and all pro rogues, including like the ones in world number 1 guild Method, are wrong...


No offence to both of you, but I think I follow Method over you, they are quite better

[silkworm]

im massively simulate my char with custom apl and without.
subterfuge is ahead, with the new standard apls even more

If you check herodamage.com with T21 4 pc set, and with boots and bracers, running either Nightstalker or Subterfuge yields almost same results. Granted subterfuge pull ahead by 1k (1,958 mil vs 1,957 mil) which is negligable.
Only if you go bleed build and sim with 2 x T20 (heroic) + 4 T21(heroic) And bracers and boots, and subterfuge talent only then you run at 1,978 mil which is 20k increase. Thats still a paltry %0,1. Even then with same setup nightstalker build pulls ahead with 2,011 which is roughly %0,5 increase.

So it all comes down to play style. I can't for the life of me fit bleed rotation. Even though I will be doing slightly less dps I prefer the poison build and go nightstalker over subterfuge. Same goes with anticipation or deeper stratagem. Vigor suits my play style better.

These sims are based on predetermined sets so your actual milage can vary but I think both talents yield very near results on single target. Subterfuge shines on multi target start scenarios where you can garrote 2-3 adds from stealth or do the same via vanish during combat. Mythic + runs is a good place to run subterfuge and will net you more damage.

[Master Guns]

You guys need to remember armory does not show correct mastery. My armory says I have 170% but I’m 196% live.

Which actually makes this guys case worse lol. But remember it’s not his low mastery bc he prob has around 180% live.

[omeomorfismo]

No. It's based on the following:

- Tests myself, in raids, on dummies etc etc.
- Most guides there is on the internet.
- ALL pro Rogues I have found play Nightstalker, including 3 raid rogues in world number 1 guild Method.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, I guess YOU are correct and all pro rogues, including like the ones in world number 1 guild Method, are wrong...


No offence to both of you, but I think I follow Method over you, they are quite better

the reason to pick nightstalker isnt damage but flexibility. nobody cares about more theoretical damage in mithyc when can have more flexybility.

If you check herodamage.com with T21 4 pc set, and with boots and bracers, running either Nightstalker or Subterfuge yields almost same results. Granted subterfuge pull ahead by 1k (1,958 mil vs 1,957 mil) which is negligable.
Only if you go bleed build and sim with 2 x T20 (heroic) + 4 T21(heroic) And bracers and boots, and subterfuge talent only then you run at 1,978 mil which is 20k increase. Thats still a paltry %0,1. Even then with same setup nightstalker build pulls ahead with 2,011 which is roughly %0,5 increase.

So it all comes down to play style. I can't for the life of me fit bleed rotation. Even though I will be doing slightly less dps I prefer the poison build and go nightstalker over subterfuge. Same goes with anticipation or deeper stratagem. Vigor suits my play style better.

These sims are based on predetermined sets so your actual milage can vary but I think both talents yield very near results on single target. Subterfuge shines on multi target start scenarios where you can garrote 2-3 adds from stealth or do the same via vanish during combat. Mythic + runs is a good place to run subterfuge and will net you more damage.

i dont care about herodamage and his only raid sets. i sim my character with my optimized gear and with new implemented apl subterfuge is 15k ahead. thats all.
then could exists thousand of reasons to pick another talent, like the need to burst down a priority target with an empowered envenom.