"But it's optional!"

[Tradu]

The what?! I guess you had alts for farming or were given it? Vanilla, TBC and Wrath was pricey for consumables, only later on prices dropped and now you have Legion where you can make what you need even easier, and steam lined, and multiple procs - and I'm not only talking about alchemy.

And as for gearing, rather sure it was harder in previous content to get geared if I recall. M+ is a shopping center, AP is a breeze and boosted and legendaries has BLP on, and soon can be purchased if PTR notes goes as they do.

Yes, getting just random ilevel gear is easy. You keep claiming AP "is" a breeze, which is great, but it wasn't for most of the expansion, and legiondaries are going to be a problem regardless of what Blizzard does(the PTR thing is nice, but it doesn't fix anything, and is about a year late)

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AP was still a breeze to obtain in EN, ToV and NH. Even easier now. Back in those tiers it might've taken work but you weren't demanded a certain level of AP until later.

You absolutely were(or I guess not if you play casually, which is good for you, but doesn't make the complaint from people who aren't as casual invalid). Around 20 for EN(don't remember exactly), 35 for ToV, 54 for NH, then 52 for ToS(which was easy) and 75 for Antorus(also not a huge deal)

[Santoryu]

Actually I think it means if you hate it....why are u still doing it.

This is another moronic counter argument. Could it be that he's not happy with something about the game and wants it to improve?

Take it or leave it isn't a valid argument in a developing game.

[Kagthul]

Except it hasn't. To get into raids prior to Wrath, you needed to attune yourself to them. This was the "big grind", but once it was done then it was DONE. It would take a month at most to get the dungeon attunements to then get the raid attunements and then you were done. The attunement quests that followed the initial release of both TBC and Vanilla were either much shorter/easier, or were an entire server wide effort so that nobody could go inside of the raid until everybody on the server could.

.... do i need to post the jpeg of the Attunement chart for TBC?

What else was there? Gold for consumables? Yeah so? Farming for gold was a very non-linear situation unlike the grinds in Legion. You could always farm the mats for whatever consumables you needed by hand,

Which could take hours.

or you could trade your way to gold and then simply buy the consumables required.

And more hours.

Fishing, mining, or just mobbing for rare loot were all options. It started to be more common from Wrath and onwards, but guilds who were serious about raiding would generally supply the raiders with whatever consumables they deemed necessary.

And who do you think farmed those mats? Because your guild was nice enough to let you leech of of someone elses farming doesn't mean it wasn't being done. It just meant that someone else was nice enough to do it for you.

[sionus]

Incorrect. If a player intends to be a part of cutting edge guilds, many things now become mandatory. The choice to play in a top guild is optional, yes, but not everything that comes with it. If you decide that some farming and other things are optional, you're no longer able to make top guilds an option for you.

This is also optional content. Don't want to spend the time farming to be part of a top raiding guild? Then don't. I hate to break it to you but some content is going to simply be inaccessible to some people.

[Armourboy]

Exactly which grind is boring right now in the game?

They all seem pretty fast, but this comes from someone who has been playing since Vanilla and remembers that getting a faction to exalted used to take at least 10x as long as it does nowadays.

I don't think the OP is really complaining about the Rep grind itself. I mean he is but honestly it's kind of the secondary complaint. I think the primary complaint is he has to do it on a character he doesn't even want to play so that he can then go back and roll the Race he actually wanted to play to begin with.

I think the major complaint is that Races have never been " optional content " so he feels that none of these step are now optional. Yes you can play the game, but you can't play the race you want to without jumping through a bunch of " optional " hoops that tbh probably don't make a ton of sense to place around character creation.

Edit: And basically he's tired of having people tell him all of this stuff is optional so he ranted a bit instead of actually stating what his real issue was until later in the thread.

[Deleted]

Gods. I am so tired of seeing this bandied about as if it were the end-all be-all of counter arguments.

It's not a counter argument. It's an affirmative defense. If you're on trial for murder and you say, "Yes, I killed them but here's my reason," that's an affirmative defense. You're admitting to the charges but saying it's acceptable because of something. In WoW and other MMOs, "it's optional" is an affirmative defense.

"This grind is so boring!"

"It's optional!"

You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

Literally everything in the game is optional. The problem is there's different levels of optional. Leveling is optional, but it's the only way to unlock content. Artifacts are enitrely optional, but they're also one of the primary focus points of the entire Legion expansion. You don't have to use them. But they're not as optional as say a vanity mount that takes months to grind out.

"It's optional" is a really dumb, meaningless, and hollow thing to say.

Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism. Games should be fun. It's really not hard to figure out. A video game being boring is a flaw, not a feature. It would be great if people didn't pretend otherwise.

You have daily quest content, alot of rep farming, toys and acms if you play solo. If you want to raid/do m+ you gotta invest more time yes, but what is "the grind" then? Doing dailies and one +15 a week. After 3 days played you can start hc/mythic raiding then. If you cba prepare 3 days at Max level doing group content, a mmo is Not for you. AP farming was only ever an issue for mythic raiders at a decent level.

[taliey]

I don't like X. X should be changed.

I don't mind X. X should remain the way it was.

Arguments in a nutshell.

[Deleted]

Yes, getting just random ilevel gear is easy. You keep claiming AP "is" a breeze, which is great, but it wasn't for most of the expansion, and legiondaries are going to be a problem regardless of what Blizzard does(the PTR thing is nice, but it doesn't fix anything, and is about a year late)

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You absolutely were(or I guess not if you play casually, which is good for you, but doesn't make the complaint from people who aren't as casual invalid). Around 20 for EN(don't remember exactly), 35 for ToV, 54 for NH, then 52 for ToS(which was easy) and 75 for Antorus(also not a huge deal)

35 was required for guarm mythic, which was easy 3-4 Werks After raid release. 52 in nh was required for krosus, which was also doable if you just played the game.

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This is another moronic counter argument. Could it be that he's not happy with something about the game and wants it to improve?

Take it or leave it isn't a valid argument in a developing game.

You dont get it, do you? Ap is rewarded for endgame stuff, just Play the Game and you get it, if you decide to clear a mythic raid in 4 weeks that is your choice. I have all cutting edge acms, and all i did was emissaries and some m+ with my friends.... If you dont like AP you dislike dungeons/ questing -> go Play something else or don't put unnecessary requirements on yourself.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Ya, no. If you don't like something don't do it. There are people who like it, and it's optional to you so that's all there is to it. It's not murder to dislike something in a game. You are just a casual.

[Pooti]

Before everyone flaming you and going "BUT IT'S OPTIONAL LMAO" or "JUST DON'T PLAY IT THEN!".

I'm upset about the amount of mandatory content that is just not fun because it's often relegated by RNG or just endless grinding, not because I'm a hater but because I love the game and I am passionate about it. I've played this game for 12 years and I want it to be fun, I have every right to be critical about these points of the game that many dislike.

Not every person has to be either shunned or forced to enjoy things. People are allowed to be unhappy with the game and want change, and still play the game.


EDIT; and by mandatory content, it does differ from person to person of course. As someone who enjoys playing his class to the fullest extent and raiding, aswell as having alts, it is INCREASINGLY hard to justify the endless RNG legendary grind and AP grind because it just shits on what I enjoy with the game.
And again, before you go "BUT STOP PLAYING THEN LMAO", I'll refer to the above points.

You are 100% percent allowed to be unhappy about it. Understand though that your feelings do not matter. If say, 50% of the players felt the same and STOPPED PLAYING then it would matter. Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching.

[Gungnir]

You are 100% percent allowed to be unhappy about it. Understand though that your feelings do not matter. If say, 50% of the players felt the same and STOPPED PLAYING then it would matter. Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching.

I never said that my feelings matter, I'm saying that a discussion should be had that shouldn't be handwaved by "IT'S OPTIONAL LUL" or "MAD CUZ BAD STOP PLAYING".
Also no, even if 50% of the playerbase stopped playing, it wouldn't matter. Because people will still go "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN DON'T PLAY IT. NOTHING IS WRONG".

"Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching."
So you're saying that I have to stop playing in order for my input towards this discussion to be taken seriously?
You are saying, in fact, that I have to not be up to date with how the system, AT ALL, for the discussion to take place? What?
No genuinely, what?

[SirCowdog]

This is another moronic counter argument. Could it be that he's not happy with something about the game and wants it to improve?

Take it or leave it isn't a valid argument in a developing game.

It's really strange to me to always see the people who avidly, fanatically, defend the current state of the game. It's like they think that anything that is in the game right now that they're enjoying is the absolute epitome of perfection, and that there's no possible room from criticism or improvement. The cognitive dissonance here is amazing, considering that the game is in a nearly CONSTANT state of flux, with updates, patches, balancing, and sometimes complete overhaul is a periodic, inevitable, occurrence.

What's especially baffling about their response "Take it or leave it" is that, in a game which is VERY SPECIFICALLY designed to be a multiplayer experience, telling someone to leave the game makes no sense.

As far as I can tell, the entire basis of almost every counter argument to a criticism of the game is "Like the same things I like or stop existing!"

[SyphonRT]

I never said that my feelings matter, I'm saying that a discussion should be had that shouldn't be handwaved by "IT'S OPTIONAL LUL" or "MAD CUZ BAD STOP PLAYING".
Also no, even if 50% of the playerbase stopped playing, it wouldn't matter. Because people will still go "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN DON'T PLAY IT. NOTHING IS WRONG".

"Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching."
So you're saying that I have to stop playing in order for my input towards this discussion to be taken seriously?
You are saying, in fact, that I have to not be up to date with how the system, AT ALL, for the discussion to take place? What?
No genuinely, what?

I think what he is trying to say is, what is the real reason that you keep playing a game that is so thoroughly flawed, according to you? I mean, it’s not like there aren’t any other games around to choose from...

[SirCowdog]

You are 100% percent allowed to be unhappy about it. Understand though that your feelings do not matter. If say, 50% of the players felt the same and STOPPED PLAYING then it would matter. Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching.

Bull. Shit.

This is a game where players often have multiple years of investment, and recognize that Blizzard not only reglarly changes and improves the game, but is often open to feedback to facilitate that change. Telling someone that their legitimate complaints and criticisms of the game are "childish bitching" is just being an asshole because you don't agree, especially when it's entirely possible that Blizzard could hear the complaints and adjust accordingly.

You even contradict yourself in your own post. You say that if enough people complain(50% was the number you used) then it would matter, but individuals complaining don't matter. Do you think that 50% of players just magically isn't made up of individuals who aren't happy with the game? Or that people's feelings just don't matter until they reach some arbitrary breakpoint?

Sorry, the kind of attitude you're displaying with that point of view is straight up invalid.

[Deleted]

"This grind is so boring!"

"It's optional!"

You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

I believe you are taking this conversation in a different direction than it should be had.
Here "It's optional" should mean "It's optional, so If YOU find it boring, might as well not do it".
Your conclusion, that the reply "It's optional" is a silent agreement to the fact that the grind is boring, is baseless.

Now all this doesn't take away from the fact that the criticism is valid - it is. Every honest criticism is valid, given from every single player of the game.
The matter of fact is, since it is not possible to appease to all players individually, devs can only apply democracy rule and listen to the majority's feedback.

In this case though, i believe the devs have really heard you, as they did drastically reduced the overall grind in the game. Just go two sections down in the main forum page - "Classic WoW general discussions" and you will see that the topics there hardly discuss anything else but that.

[Hctaz]

.... do i need to post the jpeg of the Attunement chart for TBC?

No. It took less than 1 month from max level to attune yourself to all of the 2.0 dungeons and raids, and, after you attuned yourself, you never had to bother with it again on that character. New attuning quests came out, but they were not nearly as complex as the original, which, like I said, took less than 1 month. I'd rather go through the attuning process for 2-3 weeks than farm AP forever.

[Deleted]

No. It took less than 1 month from max level to attune yourself to all of the 2.0 dungeons and raids, and, after you attuned yourself, you never had to bother with it again on that character. New attuning quests came out, but they were not nearly as complex as the original, which, like I said, took less than 1 month. I'd rather go through the attuning process for 2-3 weeks than farm AP forever.

Now was attuning to a raid the real grind in TBC or Vanilla i am asking.
Did you forget the gold grind for repairs, pots and food you need to bring with you to the raid? Or was you the only player in the game back then that was getting that for 10min right after you got up from a good night sleep?
C'mon.

[SyphonRT]

Telling someone that their legitimate complaints and criticisms of the game are "childish bitching" is just being an asshole because you don't agree, especially when it's entirely possible that Blizzard could hear the complaints and adjust accordingly.

I’m playing devil’s advocate here for a bit, but:
The point is, that the legitimacy of those complaints is being disputed in the first place. I think that we can all agree that it is practically impossible to create an MMO in which 100% of the content is considered “fun” for everyone. The diversity of the playerbase is just too broad for that. Meanwhile, there are a number of traditions or conventions which go with MMO-territory, and some grinding is unavoidable in a game like this.
Also, I sense a hint of entitlement in some of the posts in this thread, “I want to play in a top mythic guild but I don’t want to invest any time outside of raids”. Again, this is not how MMO’s work. You got MOBA’s for that sort of gameplay.

[Kanegasi]

This is also optional content. Don't want to spend the time farming to be part of a top raiding guild? Then don't. I hate to break it to you but some content is going to simply be inaccessible to some people.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I agree that top guild participation is optional itself, but the fact that there are mandatory activities in order to participate is what I was getting at. This means that when top guild players complain about mandatory activities, "but it's optional" is not a valid response.

[Deleted]

I think you misunderstood my comment. I agree that top guild participation is optional itself, but the fact that there are mandatory activities in order to participate is what I was getting at. This means that when top guild players complain about mandatory activities, "but it's optional" is not a valid response.

What about when it's the optimal way of doing things? Is it not worth discussing?
I think saying something is optional is stupid when there is a optimal way of doing things.

There is nothing worse than saying "if you don't like flying then don't fly" or "if you don't like the new talents then don't use them".