Let's talk about "Hybrid tax"

[khalltusk]

Honestly. Why don't you just ask Blizzard for TBC?

-Increase debuff slots from 0.25 per raider to 1.6 per raider
- Add new abilities, improving damage and sustain
- Add a token for gear system

All these things occurred in TBC and pretty much solved the Hybrid problem. Sure, Shadow priests may have been more desirable than Elemental Shamans. But the TBC ideas were significantly better thought out. However, we don't want TBC, at least not for now. We want classic wow, with all it's greatness AND all of it's horrors.

I thought the first version of Token items came with AQ40/ZG and nax?

[MMKing]

I thought the first version of Token items came with AQ40/ZG and nax?

It was a first step yes. But the system only allowed the raid to pick which one out of 3-4 classes would get the drop, then the person that got the item had no choice but to pick up the single item Blizzard designed. It was a big help obviously, as is evident by the Retribution specific gear for the paladin AQ40 set pieces. However, what happened was that Holy paladins did not get a set gear for AQ40, as opposed to Paladins rolling Retribution instead. Don't get me wrong it was a step in the right direction. But instead of every Hybrid getting their hands on some DPS gear, they instead lost out on healing gear instead. It was not enough simply.

TBC had the benefit of more debuff slots, and new talents improving dmg and sustain. Further more, the token for tier system in TBC allows hybrids to pick up to three pieces of armor specifically tailored for each of their roles.

TBC also introduced something i did not mention earlier. Deeper and more powerful talents trees. Seal of command is nice for a Retribution paladin in Classic, but it is not the essential ability that Crusader strike is in TBC. A protection paladin cannot tank without holy shield. The hybrid classes base capabilities got watered down, and their specializations got more powerful in turn.


Simply increasing some numbers on Paladins, Priests, Druids and Shamans will not properly balance the game. Hence why Blizzard waited until TBC, where they had a more radical and thought out solution in store.

[seventysix]

Honestly. Why don't you just ask Blizzard for TBC?

-Increase debuff slots from 0.25 per raider to 1.6 per raider
- Add new abilities, improving damage and sustain
- Add a token for gear system

All these things occurred in TBC and pretty much solved the Hybrid problem. Sure, Shadow priests may have been more desirable than Elemental Shamans. But the TBC ideas were significantly better thought out. However, we don't want TBC, at least not for now. We want classic wow, with all it's greatness AND all of it's horrors.

Agree with most of what you said, but I would like a vanilla with all the greatness and without the horrors I understand that some people don't wish for this and that's ok.

[SidFwuff]

Agree with most of what you said, but I would like a vanilla with all the greatness and without the horrors I understand that some people don't wish for this and that's ok.

There's a lot of horrors that people forget about Vanilla- like how the "hybrid tax" also applied to healing.

Or Warlocks weren't meant to be 'DPS'. If you rolled a warlock to deal damage you were doing it wrong- reroll a mage. Warlocks were meant to offer utility in the form of their curses and debuff enemies. It was only until the patch that overhauled them their DPS wasn't horrendous.

Or that the Tier0 and Tier 1 sets for Hybrids (Well, druids at least) had +dmg on half the pieces instead of +healing and the set bonuses applied to damage as well as healing.

Personally, I hope they keep it as close to the original as possible and offer a version of "Classic" before all the overhauls.

The one thing difference I'll accept though is giving druids a rez that isn't on a 30min cooldown

[Deleted]

The thing that people because of narrow mindsets and egoism don't see is:

If your class brings a buff that increases damage of a DD by 5%, you are basically doing these 5% more damage, because without you this portion is not there.
The problem here is that this DPS done is not counted in your own damage meter but in the rogues ones which makes you think you didn't bring something to the raid.

So in Short. If your Raid does 1000 dps more because of the buffs you can apply, you basically brought 1000 more dps to the raid.
You can basically view the classes that are affected by your buff as your pets that do increased damage.


So the Hybrid Tax is just a shifting of damage from your own class to another class because of the buff. In my opinion a good design that current WoW is totally missing because of narrow minded players who were never able to understand the mechaniques behind buffs.

Problem is that the healspecced version of that class can cast this buff just as fine and is the only viable option in raiding. Hybrid DPS have neither the damage nor the unique Buffs to justify their existence in PVE

[Charge me Doctor]

Problem is that the healspecced version of that class can cast this buff just as fine and is the only viable option in raiding. Hybrid DPS have neither the damage nor the unique Buffs to justify their existence in PVE

Can't have kings buff when specced in healing before AQ or something. It was locked in ret tree iirc

[Echocho]

Problem is that the healspecced version of that class can cast this buff just as fine and is the only viable option in raiding. Hybrid DPS have neither the damage nor the unique Buffs to justify their existence in PVE

Yes. For example it's better to bring a gimped priest that heals and keeps shadow weaving up than to bring a shadow priest.

[klaps_05]

They were, but that's not the point. The point is that warriors don't pay a hybrid tax. Shamans are healer/dps hybrids and can't do much damage at all. Warriors are tank/dps hybrids and shouldn't be able to do much damage because of it. The same rule should apply to everyone. Either buff everyone else or nerf warriors.

I think Warriors are exempt from the hybrid tax as in the official game Guide/Manual, it was Blizzard who stated Warrior is literally the best class with the best armor most health and strength

[Zafire]

I never understood why hybrids weren't rewarded for off-healing. It wouldn't have even been hard to do. Example: Ret flash heal on ally doubles damage of next judgement.

[bufferunderrun]

I never understood why hybrids weren't rewarded for off-healing. It wouldn't have even been hard to do. Example: Ret flash heal on ally doubles damage of next judgement.

because they were already rewarded by having 3 different class in one character, so to avoid those class becoming the only one used blizzard make them pay the hybrid tax, that steam from an era when having alts was absolutely uncommon so a class who could do more than one role was priceless (mind this is considering the game as whole both pvp and pve).

[Ehrenpanzer]

The hybrid tax never made sense because of the way it was implemented. Pure classes also had a lot of CC and survivability. Basically it rendered hybrid classes pointless, unless they had that "key" skill, like Blood Lust, I guess. My dps warrior suffered from this design in TBC, where I was only given charity spots in raids/heroics. Rogues did more damage, and had the 100% necessary CC. The tanks couldn't survive taking on many mobs at once. Fear was a guaranteed wipe, and the things I had going for me, like plate and the ability to hotswap for sword'n board added very little value. The role you chose should set the potential for your contribution, not the class you want to play.

......wut

1. If you were only getting a charity spot, its because you were bad. Fury was great the entire xpac. Especially when Titans Grip came out, warriors were wrecking dps charts
2. Uh... yes they could? Easily? Tab target is hard
3. Oh... guess they forgot to mention that to me since I never had an issue with it.....
4. Then you had shit groups that had no idea how to maximize players abilities or the knowledge of when/how to use them.

It basically sounds like you had no idea how to play the class properly, running with groups that had no idea what was going on, and now complaining about how broken it was back then....

[Specialka]

Titan's grip came out with prebc patch. It was never meant for Vanilla.

[Vineri]

That's true, but at the higher-end (hardcore) levels where people only care about numbers and clearing content as fast as possible, it's certainly a valid point.

The best part of this statement is that even though the mechanics are known in 2018, some guilds elsewhere are still struggling to complete MC.

Contrary to peoples continued harps about how everything will be too easy. Hah! I honestly expect the same numbers as before with regards to raiding and the 1% seeing Naxx.

We want to see it, but do the others not reading this forum want to also? Maybe .. Maybe not.

As far as hybrid tax though, play a hybrid and you contribute as a utility class. If you score high on the charts ... cool. Otherwise a quality guild will take into account why you did not. Buffs, CC (!!!), Utility, whatever your roll. A hybrid contributes to other classes so the group / raid succeeds. The goal is to succeed, not get high numbers on meters, IMO.

A good guild master knows this.

[Specialka]

The best part of this statement is that even though the mechanics are known in 2018, some guilds elsewhere are still struggling to complete MC.

Contrary to peoples continued harps about how everything will be too easy. Hah! I honestly expect the same numbers as before with regards to raiding and the 1% seeing Naxx.

We want to see it, but do the others not reading this forum want to also? Maybe .. Maybe not.

As far as hybrid tax though, play a hybrid and you contribute as a utility class. If you score high on the charts ... cool. Otherwise a quality guild will take into account why you did not. Buffs, CC (!!!), Utility, whatever your roll. A hybrid contributes to other classes so the group / raid succeeds. The goal is to succeed, not get high numbers on meters, IMO.

A good guild master knows this.

Just to be precise, mechanics in vanilla raid were easy, even easier than any 5-man dungeon in legion. The "difficult", if I can say so bu I should use the word tedious to be precise, was to get attunement for everyone, Resistance gear when needed and consumables.

[Vineri]

Just to be precise, mechanics in vanilla raid were easy, even easier than any 5-man dungeon in legion. The "difficult", if I can say so bu I should use the word tedious to be precise, was to get attunement for everyone, Resistance gear when needed and consumables.

Resistance gear. Fire on some fights. Nature of some fights.

When people don't have this, they die, or bleed healers to the detrement of the raid. Possible catastrophic results.

Don't bore me pls with 5 man dungeon difficulty. Getting 40 people on the same page with adequate gear is more difficult. Managing 40 people in Vanilla makes your 5-man-Legion dungeon look like a Hogger run. Mechanics ... . Most people do not know mechanics well.

Repetition helps a lot. Dungeons can be learned fast. Vanilla raids happen once per week. Most people have no clue what they are doing. :P They just don't have enough experience. Raiding for some consists of twice per month - they are not going to remember squat.

But anyways difficulty is subjective, I suppose.

[Altariaz]

Just to be precise, mechanics in vanilla raid were easy, even easier than any 5-man dungeon in legion. The "difficult", if I can say so bu I should use the word tedious to be precise, was to get attunement for everyone, Resistance gear when needed and consumables.

So the mechanics of the 4 horseman fight in vanilla Naxx were easier than any 5-man legion dungeon? One thing is obvious: You never played vanilla wow much, if at all.

[Specialka]

Resistance gear. Fire on some fights. Nature of some fights.

When people don't have this, they die, or bleed healers to the detrement of the raid. Possible catastrophic results.

Don't bore me pls with 5 man dungeon difficulty. Getting 40 people on the same page with adequate gear is more difficult. Managing 40 people in Vanilla makes your 5-man-Legion dungeon look like a Hogger run. Mechanics ... . Most people do not know mechanics well.

Repetition helps a lot. Dungeons can be learned fast. Vanilla raids happen once per week. Most people have no clue what they are doing. :P They just don't have enough experience. Raiding for some consists of twice per month - they are not going to remember squat.

But anyways difficulty is subjective, I suppose.

Not difficult, tedious is the word you should use for Vanilla related stuff.

[Charge me Doctor]

Titan's grip came out with prebc patch. It was never meant for Vanilla.

Are you serious right now?

[bufferunderrun]

Just to be precise, mechanics in vanilla raid were easy, even easier than any 5-man dungeon in legion. The "difficult", if I can say so bu I should use the word tedious to be precise, was to get attunement for everyone, Resistance gear when needed and consumables.

the difficult was also the gearing process, today a raid ready character with acceptable output is done in few day, back then it was a long and painful process due to drop being scarce, itemization being poor, farming gold, farming material, etc. To the point that one of the reliable way of getting good gear was pvp this is also why hybrids in blizzard mind hold an intrinsec high value just because they had the ability to tackle different kind of environment by respeccing; "jack of all trade, master of none" was referred to this ability.

Also levelling that today is shunned as a chore, back then was intended as a part of the adventure, a class who had a spec good at levelling was valuable no matter what other said, a class who was able to enter alone an elite area (otherwise known as open world dungeon) and farm gold or mats there alone was also extremely valuable.

Today raid or die pow didn't existed back then, if some approach vanilla with said mentality they are well on track for a huge delusion, the first thing one need to work on is this kind of approach, raiding is not a right is a reward for busting your ass in whole lot of other activities so having a class that could make those other activities (that include levelling) less painful is extremely valuable.

[Specialka]

Are you serious right now?

Are we talking about the skill that allows warrior to dual wield 2hand weapons? I do not remember having that stuff in late vanilla, only with tbc.