Bitcoin

[Raelbo]

Kind of hope cryptocurrencies die soon

The miners that mine Bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies use NVIDA & AMD game cards

As such, Gaming PCs that us Gamers use have increased in price because demand for NVIDA game cards has gone thru the roof.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/h...nything-2018-2

Graphics cards are also being sold at greatly inflated prices these days – if you can even find them – due to shortages in supply, and it’s almost entirely because miners are buying up all the cards!

Crypto currencies as a concept are fine. The problem is the "investors". People hoping to make a profit out of them. So the demand is much higher than it really should be. Hopefully though, once enough taxi drivers and other average people who heard about bitcoin at the hairdresser have lost enough money on their quick "investment" gone wrong, things will settle down again. Maybe then nVidia will be forced sell their cards cheap because there won't be enough miners to buy all the cards they made to try and keep up with the bubble demand.

[Strawberry]

That's a completely fallacious argument and defies the most fundamental law of economics: Supply and Demand.

The cost of mining a bitcoin is not static. For every bitcoin mined, the cost of the next bitcoin increases. However every day computing costs are coming down (basically newer processors can do more calculation with the same amount of power). So if everyone just stopped making bitcoin for a year and then started up again, the cost would be roughly halved. In short, the rate at which bitcoin are mined determines whether the price rises or falls, and there is an equilibrium state where the cost stays constant.

The reason bitcoins cost so much to mine right now is that the demand for them has been so high that it has pushed miners to mine even at the ludicrously high cost of over $5000. If the price of bitcoin drops, it will simply mean that mining will stop being profitable and people will stop doing it, which will result in the cost to mine falling until it reaches an economically viable level.

Which brings me back to the fundamental econical principle: Supply and Demand. Supply has to adjust, in price and quantity, according to changes in demand. Bitcoin demand has been dominated, and continues to be dominated, not by a demand to use the things as a currency, but by a demand to use them as an "investment", ie to sell later at a profit. People don't want bitcoins to use. They want to buy them so that they can sell them tomorrow for a profit, to other people who want to do exactly the same thing. It is a bubble, and when it bursts, as it did, the price has to crash, as it did.

The price of bitcoin will settle once all these "investors" get out of the system and people end up buying bitcoin for their intended purpose, namely as a currency. If you're buying a bitcoin as an "investment" you're taking a gamble, a gamble that someone with an even greater appetite for risk than you will take it off your hands in the hope of making a profit. At some point the world will run out of enough people with that kind of appetite for risk that the demand to buy will dry up, and what you'll be left with is a lot of desperate people eager to cut their losses before the price drops even lower, thus forcing the price to keep nosediving. That is what happened in the last month until the risk proposition became attractive enough for some people to start thinking that the price is low enough to try "investing" again.

But because the demand is still being driven these "investors", it is still a bubble. I am not saying that there is no opportunity to still make a potentially lucrative profit from trading in bitcoins, but I am saying that it comes with a very real risk of blowing up in your face and you losing a ton of money instead. And if you think that the mining cost is going to keep you safe, think again. All that means is that the miners are also running the risk of losing money.

Bitcoin is not a smart investment. It's actually a pretty foolish investment. But a lot of people have gotten away with it, and even made a lot of money out of it, not because they did anything smart, but because there were hordes of stupid, greedy people willing to risk losing that money in the hopes of getting rich quick.

Rofl, you sound like Warren Buffet and Goldman Sachs and many other investors/companies, but yet they have been proven wrong. Goldman Sachs is officially shitting on crypto, but secretly investing in it.
So what is your background in crypto? Please do tell.

[Grishnaar]

Blockchain (perhaps hashgraph provides something too, and so on) is the future backbone of financing. You can almost make a sure bet (there's no such thing) on that.

Bitcoin, only IMHO, is a nice, "white knight" idea that unfortunately can't work in this world. You can't really remove Mafia (bank and whatnot) from the Mafia game, so to speak. It doesn't wotk like that. They are in control for a long time and they'll die before that changes.


Anyway, just wanted to say that and Bitcoin isn't the only one. It's the first one, though has certain tech problems.
The bad thing is that almost everything AROUND it feely pyramidic/scammy. But that's just IMHO.


Also, not all coins need mining (validation of transfers), some are premined, etc.
Oh and expect most to "die" once real regulation hits.


If (plan to) delve into crypto world, know it's like pennystocks on crack. 50% changes up and down in the same day is normal. Market is unregulated, FUD and shilling is everyone.
There's like 10% normal thoughts/texts with valid arguments.

Trust NOONE completely and if it sounds too good, probably is.

As a more subjective thought, read up on Ripple and what they are doing. Might make you some nice money in 1-10 years But READ, RESEARCH and decide for YOURSELF!

[Raelbo]

Rofl, you sound like Warren Buffet and Goldman Sachs and many other investors/companies, but yet they have been proven wrong.

It seems I have touched a nerve. I was simply here to try and have an interesting discussion with someone who seemed to know a lot about crypto currencies. Sadly, given how you'd rather try to ridicule me than engage in actual discussion, I am getting the feeling that your arguments are based more in blind zeal and the type of thinking exhibited by members of cults and conspiracy theorists, than on actual sound reasoning.


Anyhow just because bitcoin hasn't crashed to the low levels predicted by most of the big investors doesn't prove that it won't. And tbh, the recent crash suggests that they may be right.

That being said, I don't agree with Goldman Sach's assessment that Bitcoin will fall to zero. Bitcoin does have inherent value, just as tulips do. But the price is currently way out of line with what it should be worth according to all the laws of economics. It needs to fall to a level at which it is valued according the demand for people wanting to use it as a currency as opposed to (as it currently is) an "investment" in which they expect the kind of returns that the average man-on-the-street-with-stars-in-his-eyes has come to expect of bitcoin.

Goldman Sachs is officially shitting on crypto, but secretly investing in it.

Nice conspiracy theory. Any backing for it?

So what is your background in crypto? Please do tell.

You mean aside from the fact that I design PCB hardware with FPGA's and have actually implemented cryptographic algorithms in VHDL? (Do you even understand what I am talking about?).

So yes, I understand exactly what a blockchain is, how it is created and why it is always needing more processing power to find the next coin. I also am intimately aware of Moore's Law and how it works to constantly reduce the cost of processing power. So yes, I understand precisely from whence the true value of the bitcoin comes.

Not that any of this is actually relevant to my argument. You're just trying to use ad hominem, playing the person (me) instead of the argument. Generally people do this when they have a poor argument. I mean, you've replied to me three times and haven't really engaged at all with what I am saying, dismissing me with ridicule, making a few broad sweeping statements, with zero substantion, all the while hinting that you're some kind of guru who we should all just believe.

[Mormolyce]

You're eye rolling me for saying that banks enslave us? Are you fucking for real or just trolling me?
Unless you're living of your parents milions, then you'll have to take a loan to buy a house, or a new-ish car. You'll become banks bitch for 40 years.
If that doesn't make you their slave, then you're quite ignorant.

Bitcoin won't break the chains. If it ever ceases to be a speculation item and becomes a real currency, it'll be regulated and incorporated into the system.

There are guns and bombs behind the banks, when you get right down to it. If you actually want to stop them, you'll need more guns and more bombs.

- - - Updated - - -

Rofl, you sound like Warren Buffet and Goldman Sachs and many other investors/companies, but yet they have been proven wrong. Goldman Sachs is officially shitting on crypto, but secretly investing in it.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Goldman Sachs did, investors diversify. Whatever Buffet says.

Cryptocurrencies at the moment are simply high volatility investments. Very high volatility. They aren't the only one. Shit, you could go to the casino every day and put it all on black, that's a high volatility investment. It has little to do with their utility as a currency.

[Strawberry]

It seems I have touched a nerve. I was simply here to try and have an interesting discussion with someone who seemed to know a lot about crypto currencies. Sadly, given how you'd rather try to ridicule me than engage in actual discussion, I am getting the feeling that your arguments are based more in blind zeal and the type of thinking exhibited by members of cults and conspiracy theorists, than on actual sound reasoning.


Anyhow just because bitcoin hasn't crashed to the low levels predicted by most of the big investors doesn't prove that it won't. And tbh, the recent crash suggests that they may be right.

That being said, I don't agree with Goldman Sach's assessment that Bitcoin will fall to zero. Bitcoin does have inherent value, just as tulips do. But the price is currently way out of line with what it should be worth according to all the laws of economics. It needs to fall to a level at which it is valued according the demand for people wanting to use it as a currency as opposed to (as it currently is) an "investment" in which they expect the kind of returns that the average man-on-the-street-with-stars-in-his-eyes has come to expect of bitcoin.



Nice conspiracy theory. Any backing for it?



You mean aside from the fact that I design PCB hardware with FPGA's and have actually implemented cryptographic algorithms in VHDL? (Do you even understand what I am talking about?).

So yes, I understand exactly what a blockchain is, how it is created and why it is always needing more processing power to find the next coin. I also am intimately aware of Moore's Law and how it works to constantly reduce the cost of processing power. So yes, I understand precisely from whence the true value of the bitcoin comes.

Not that any of this is actually relevant to my argument. You're just trying to use ad hominem, playing the person (me) instead of the argument. Generally people do this when they have a poor argument. I mean, you've replied to me three times and haven't really engaged at all with what I am saying, dismissing me with ridicule, making a few broad sweeping statements, with zero substantion, all the while hinting that you're some kind of guru who we should all just believe.

Yes you touched a nerve because you're repeating what people are saying for years.
This is the main reason why I don't enter these discussions anymore. At least 5 times every year the naysayers come out screaming BITCOIN BUBBLE. Yet every year Bitcoin keep breaking new records.
You are ridiculed because you deserve to be ridiculed.
Mining difficulity goes up when more GPUs/ASICs enter the market but it also go down when they exit.

Also, to answer to one of your questions:
https://cryptoslate.com/goldman-sach...-trading-desk/

Anyway, I don't need to prove myself right. I'll just let time do its thing.
Come back here at the end of 2018.

[Raelbo]

Yes you touched a nerve because you're repeating what people are saying for years.

and because you're personally and emotionally invested in bitcoin this somehow makes you uncomfortable. I wonder why....

This is the main reason why I don't enter these discussions anymore. At least 5 times every year the naysayers come out screaming BITCOIN BUBBLE. Yet every year Bitcoin keep breaking new records.

To be fair the arguments have changed. For years the question has been "will bitcoin actually work as a currency, or will it fold?". Now the question is "is bitcoin worth this huge amount of money?"

It's two different questions which you're conflating.

You are ridiculed because you deserve to be ridiculed.

You seem to be somewhat hysterical at this stage. Sorry, but ridiculing won't get me to change my mind. Nor will it convince any intelligent readers that you're erudite.

Mining difficulity goes up when more GPUs/ASICs enter the market but it also go down when they exit.

Yes, this is true and a more accurate description than the one I gave. Not that nitpicking the details really changes anything. Now please reconcile this with your theory that the cost of mining is set at $5K. If bitcoins drop in value, then the number of people competing to mine them will drop, meaning the difficulty and cost will drop. It's still the same nett effect: Bitcoin mining is so expensive because lots of people are doing it because the prices are so high because people have been buying them in the hopes of making a quick buck. It's a bubble. The bubble bursts when people lose confidence in bitcoin, so they stop buying, which will lead to miners bailing and the mining cost coming down.

Also, to answer to one of your questions:
https://cryptoslate.com/goldman-sach...-trading-desk/

Let me guess. You stopped at the headline.

As it turns out, no, Goldman Sachs aren't investing in bitcoin. They invested $50M in a bitcoin trading platform. They have zero investment in the actual value of bitcoins.

Anyway, I don't need to prove myself right. I'll just let time do its thing.
Come back here at the end of 2018.

[Strawberry]

and because you're personally and emotionally invested in bitcoin this somehow makes you uncomfortable. I wonder why....



To be fair the arguments have changed. For years the question has been "will bitcoin actually work as a currency, or will it fold?". Now the question is "is bitcoin worth this huge amount of money?"

It's two different questions which you're conflating.



You seem to be somewhat hysterical at this stage. Sorry, but ridiculing won't get me to change my mind. Nor will it convince any intelligent readers that you're erudite.



Yes, this is true and a more accurate description than the one I gave. Not that nitpicking the details really changes anything. Now please reconcile this with your theory that the cost of mining is set at $5K. If bitcoins drop in value, then the number of people competing to mine them will drop, meaning the difficulty and cost will drop. It's still the same nett effect: Bitcoin mining is so expensive because lots of people are doing it because the prices are so high because people have been buying them in the hopes of making a quick buck. It's a bubble. The bubble bursts when people lose confidence in bitcoin, so they stop buying, which will lead to miners bailing and the mining cost coming down.



Let me guess. You stopped at the headline.

As it turns out, no, Goldman Sachs aren't investing in bitcoin. They invested $50M in a bitcoin trading platform. They have zero investment in the actual value of bitcoins.

If you don't believe in cryptocurrency, you do not invest in a trading platform for crypto currency. Period.
Side projects in cryptographic algorithms are a fraction of what crypto world stands for. You're shooting blanks here as you only know a fraction of the whole crypto world.
You missed the whole point and you obviously don't read enough news about how many millionnaires and billionaires there are out there who are not in it for the money but for the tech itself.
While I myself do not know everything about crypto, there's way too much knowledge to be had by just one person, I spend a lot of time reading everything about. I research different options blockchain creates.
I have it as huge interest. It's something I believe in.
I do not think it's just a way to become rich, but also a way to limit how much banks own us.
It's a way for me to own my money. Some of you will never understand how significant this is.

Here's a picture that accuratelly describes your knowledge about crypto world:



As I said earlier, see you in late 2018.

[Raelbo]

If you don't believe in cryptocurrency, you do not invest in a trading platform for crypto currency. Period.
Side projects in cryptographic algorithms are a fraction of what crypto world stands for. You're shooting blanks here as you only know a fraction of the whole crypto world.
You missed the whole point and you obviously don't read enough news about how many millionnaires and billionaires there are out there who are not in it for the money but for the tech itself.
While I myself do not know everything about crypto, there's way too much knowledge to be had by just one person, I spend a lot of time reading everything about. I research different options blockchain creates.
I have it as huge interest. It's something I believe in.
I do not think it's just a way to become rich, but also a way to limit how much banks own us.
It's a way for me to own my money. Some of you will never understand how significant this is.

Here's a picture that accuratelly describes your knowledge about crypto world:



As I said earlier, see you in late 2018.

Look mate, you're getting on my case about arguments I never made and positions I never held. And if you paid attention to what I wrote instead of just being triggered at the first mention of the word "bubble", it would have been obvious.

I think that iceberg is a good representation of how well you understood what I was saying.

[Deleted]

That's a completely fallacious argument and defies the most fundamental law of economics: Supply and Demand.

The cost of mining a bitcoin is not static. For every bitcoin mined, the cost of the next bitcoin increases. However every day computing costs are coming down (basically newer processors can do more calculation with the same amount of power). So if everyone just stopped making bitcoin for a year and then started up again, the cost would be roughly halved. In short, the rate at which bitcoin are mined determines whether the price rises or falls, and there is an equilibrium state where the cost stays constant.

The reason bitcoins cost so much to mine right now is that the demand for them has been so high that it has pushed miners to mine even at the ludicrously high cost of over $5000. If the price of bitcoin drops, it will simply mean that mining will stop being profitable and people will stop doing it, which will result in the cost to mine falling until it reaches an economically viable level.

Which brings me back to the fundamental econical principle: Supply and Demand. Supply has to adjust, in price and quantity, according to changes in demand. Bitcoin demand has been dominated, and continues to be dominated, not by a demand to use the things as a currency, but by a demand to use them as an "investment", ie to sell later at a profit. People don't want bitcoins to use. They want to buy them so that they can sell them tomorrow for a profit, to other people who want to do exactly the same thing. It is a bubble, and when it bursts, as it did, the price has to crash, as it did.

The price of bitcoin will settle once all these "investors" get out of the system and people end up buying bitcoin for their intended purpose, namely as a currency. If you're buying a bitcoin as an "investment" you're taking a gamble, a gamble that someone with an even greater appetite for risk than you will take it off your hands in the hope of making a profit. At some point the world will run out of enough people with that kind of appetite for risk that the demand to buy will dry up, and what you'll be left with is a lot of desperate people eager to cut their losses before the price drops even lower, thus forcing the price to keep nosediving. That is what happened in the last month until the risk proposition became attractive enough for some people to start thinking that the price is low enough to try "investing" again.

But because the demand is still being driven these "investors", it is still a bubble. I am not saying that there is no opportunity to still make a potentially lucrative profit from trading in bitcoins, but I am saying that it comes with a very real risk of blowing up in your face and you losing a ton of money instead. And if you think that the mining cost is going to keep you safe, think again. All that means is that the miners are also running the risk of losing money.

Bitcoin is not a smart investment. It's actually a pretty foolish investment. But a lot of people have gotten away with it, and even made a lot of money out of it, not because they did anything smart, but because there were hordes of stupid, greedy people willing to risk losing that money in the hopes of getting rich quick.

You really don´t seem to know the full picture on Bitcoin or what it is actually used for.

[Raelbo]

You really don´t seem to know the full picture on Bitcoin or what it is actually used for.

Irrelevant. What it is actually used for is not what has been driving the price for the last 6 months.

[Deleted]

Irrelevant. What it is actually used for is not what has been driving the price for the last 6 months.

Using it as a "store value" has driven the price.

[chazus]

For the "Bitcoin Bubble" people.. Who believe it has crashed because 'thats what bubbles do':

Do you consider it's value dropping because it is 'correcting' or people are realizing it wasn't what they thought it was and bailing?

Is it possible it's value is dropping because many large governments (which people have no power over) are effectively banning/removing it from the system?

[haxartus]

For the "Bitcoin Bubble" people.. Who believe it has crashed because 'thats what bubbles do':

Everyone who has any kind of understanding of the history of finance agrees that this is a bubble.

The dotcom bubble behaved exactly like this: a new, promising technology, and a ton of shit companies rising to the top just because they had a .com in the name.

How many of them are still around ? Almost none. The value of their stock was imaginary, just as the current value of the cryptocurrency market is imaginary. And when you have an imaginary value, it's really easy for that value to disappear.

Blockchain is an interesting technology. It will allow a ton of things that were not possible before, but not necessarily currency, and not necessarily Bitcoin.

I don't blame people for not believing that this is a bubble. The whole value of the cryptocurrency market depends on people not believing it's a bubble. But beliefs tend to change rather easily.

[Raelbo]

For the "Bitcoin Bubble" people.. Who believe it has crashed because 'thats what bubbles do':

Do you consider it's value dropping because it is 'correcting' or people are realizing it wasn't what they thought it was and bailing?

Is it possible it's value is dropping because many large governments (which people have no power over) are effectively banning/removing it from the system?

It's very, very simple.

The bitcoin price started out very cheap because it was an uncertain proposition. No one knew whether this was something that would ever take off, or whether it was just another tech concept that would fizzle out. But over time as the concept proved itself, matured and started seeing actual use, confidence began to grow that it was a viable thing. And so the price began to grow.

Then what happened is a bunch of "investors" noticed the rapid growth in the bitcoin price. So they started buying bitcoin hoping to cash in on this rapid growth. This drove demand, pushed the price up even further, and so the cycle went, to a point where bitcoin became way more expensive than it should have been.

When you have a bubble, all it takes is a small knock in confidence for the whole thing to come crashing down and here is why:

People buy bitcoin, believing they would be able to flip it in a few months for a big profit. This demand pushes the price up. And as long as people continue to believe this they will continue to drive demand, thus driving the price up. But if that belief falters then people stop buying and start trying to sell instead, fearing that they might lose more money if they wait longer. This pushes the price down, and the falling price in turn feeds the fear and so on. This continues until the price drops low enough that someone decides it is value proposition and starts buying again.

In short, its value is dropping because it is correcting.

[Strawberry]

Look mate, you're getting on my case about arguments I never made and positions I never held. And if you paid attention to what I wrote instead of just being triggered at the first mention of the word "bubble", it would have been obvious.

I think that iceberg is a good representation of how well you understood what I was saying.

The people like you sing the same song every year.
Can you admit that you would've said the exactly same thing about Bitcoin a year ago when it was $1000?

[Raelbo]

The people like you sing the same song every year.

Right, so I am guilty of what "people like me" (allegedly) say

[Deleted]

The people like you sing the same song every year.
Can you admit that you would've said the exactly same thing about Bitcoin a year ago when it was $1000?

Something something pyramid scheme. No value like the $ (that also has no value lol).. Oh and dutch tulips...


Did I cover everything?

- - - Updated - - -

It's very, very simple.

The bitcoin price started out very cheap because it was an uncertain proposition. No one knew whether this was something that would ever take off, or whether it was just another tech concept that would fizzle out. But over time as the concept proved itself, matured and started seeing actual use, confidence began to grow that it was a viable thing. And so the price began to grow.

Then what happened is a bunch of "investors" noticed the rapid growth in the bitcoin price. So they started buying bitcoin hoping to cash in on this rapid growth. This drove demand, pushed the price up even further, and so the cycle went, to a point where bitcoin became way more expensive than it should have been.

When you have a bubble, all it takes is a small knock in confidence for the whole thing to come crashing down and here is why:

People buy bitcoin, believing they would be able to flip it in a few months for a big profit. This demand pushes the price up. And as long as people continue to believe this they will continue to drive demand, thus driving the price up. But if that belief falters then people stop buying and start trying to sell instead, fearing that they might lose more money if they wait longer. This pushes the price down, and the falling price in turn feeds the fear and so on. This continues until the price drops low enough that someone decides it is value proposition and starts buying again.

In short, its value is dropping because it is correcting.

Ignoring the fat that BTC is mainly used as a store value?

[Deleted]

Hello.

I am new to Bitcoin in this field.

What can one actually do with the Bitcoins, what is the advantage and disadvantage of that?

[Deleted]

Hello.

I am new to Bitcoin in this field.

What can one actually do with the Bitcoins, what is the advantage and disadvantage of that?

BTC is currently mainly used as a store value and not as an actual currency

Advantages are in the decentralized nature of most crypto currencies.