Eye beam + Nemesis + Metamorphosis

[doofus]

Hello

I have picked up an old forgotten DH I had levelled in the past and have tried my hand at Havoc. I have simmed a lot and have come up with a simple rotation. When I am executing this rotation on the Dummy I noticed that:

For the ( rare) moment when Meta is on a long CD, Nemesis is about to come off CD and Eye-Beam is ready, just ahead of Nemesis. Intuition (and maybe a misunderstanding of the mechanic) tells me that it might be worth holding on the Eye-Beam until just after Nemesis - maybe one second, maybe a few seconds. Surely with Nemesis the Eye-Beam will do 25% more damage and isn't that worth waiting X seconds for? Or have I got the mechanic all wrong? Maybe I should examine the Recount / logs to see what happens?

Anyway it sims badly, a clear DPS loss. With Meta on a long CD, it appears it is better to just go ahead and pull the Eye-Beam as soon as, regardless of the state of Nemesis. The only thing you need to look out for is not to cap your fury.

There is no set gear bonuses on this toon. I attach my sim in case anyone wants to run it!

Many thanks

Blind Fury -- Eye beam buff
First Blood -- allows use of Blade Dance/Death Sweep against ST
Nemesis
Demon Reborn - Meta resets Eye Beam
Demonic - Eye Beam enters Demon Form for 8 seconds past damage

actions=auto_attack

# right after eye beam
actions+=/metamorphosis,if=talent.demonic.enabled&buff.metamorphosis.up

actions+=/nemesis

actions+=/use_item,name=bloodlust_brooch

actions+=/potion,if=buff.metamorphosis.remains>25|target.time_to_die<60

actions+=/pick_up_fragment,if=fury.deficit>=35&((cooldown.eye_beam.remains>5|!talent.blind_fury.enab led&!set_bonus.tier21_4pc)|(buff.metamorphosis.up&!set_bonus.tier21_4pc))

actions+=/death_sweep

actions+=/fury_of_the_illidari

actions+=/blade_dance,if=cooldown.eye_beam.remains>6

actions+=/eye_beam,if=fury.deficit>=70&!buff.metamorphosis.extended_by_demonic

actions+=/annihilation

actions+=/chaos_strike

actions+=/demons_bite

[Svisalith]

Eyebeam itself on ST doesn't do that much DPS especially without the +40% from the T21_2p; most of the damage will come from the annihilation spam window from the meta buff and full fury following it. The T21_4p gives you 1.25x haste during that window and reinforces that again.

Keep in mind when doing anything with eyebeam timing in the APL that it's dependent on some other things; the soul fragment pooling and picking up is tied strongly to the eyebeam cooldown and is assuming that you're not delaying the eyebeam for any reasons that aren't already in the APL so it may not allow for the new timings without tweaking.

If you're not using the T20_4p bonus you should be speccing into Chaos Cleave instead of First Blood and removing blade dance & death sweep from your single target play. Without First Blood it's not a huge benefit even on AOE, if it's worth casting at all is up for some debate but the most likely benefit would be on around 7, 8, 9 targets - this needs some APL work and testing to completely figure out. The main reasoning for this is scaling problems with Blade Dance - it benefits from Crit less than Chaos Strike (which crits for 284% of base damage and refunds over half of the average cost on crit) and it doesn't benefit at all from Mastery since it does physical damage. The better gear you have, the worse Blade Dance becomes. In super high end gear it can be no DPS gain to take First Blood while Chaos Cleave - being a flat percentage damage increase to your main nuke - remains a core and powerful talent with something like +150k DPS.

I'd strongly suggest downloading latest nightly simcraft and working from the APL there, your APL is making multiple mistakes which are significantly larger than the effects that you're trying to test

[Waldor666]

I'd use eye beam so you get meta and then use nemesis

[Deleted]

What @Svisalith wrote in long, I will try to put more bluntly:
Eye Beam is NOT your nuke on ST - surely not when you don't have t21 4piece. Your main dmg source is Chaos Strike. It's a little strange that your GCD capped spender is your nuke, not your long-basis-cd great animation spell, but that's how it is now

[Deleted]

I'd use eye beam so you get meta and then use nemesis

I use nemesis before eyebeam. I want to use every single gcd in the meta cooldown for annihilation spam.

[Arkura]

I use nemesis before eyebeam. I want to use every single gcd in the meta cooldown for annihilation spam.

I couldnt agree more. That 8 second window is very important to get as many Chaos Strikes as possible.

[Fiftyonred]

Eyebeam itself on ST doesn't do that much DPS especially without the +40% from the T21_2p; most of the damage will come from the annihilation spam window from the meta buff and full fury following it. The T21_4p gives you 1.25x haste during that window and reinforces that again.

Keep in mind when doing anything with eyebeam timing in the APL that it's dependent on some other things; the soul fragment pooling and picking up is tied strongly to the eyebeam cooldown and is assuming that you're not delaying the eyebeam for any reasons that aren't already in the APL so it may not allow for the new timings without tweaking.

If you're not using the T20_4p bonus you should be speccing into Chaos Cleave instead of First Blood and removing blade dance & death sweep from your single target play. Without First Blood it's not a huge benefit even on AOE, if it's worth casting at all is up for some debate but the most likely benefit would be on around 7, 8, 9 targets - this needs some APL work and testing to completely figure out. The main reasoning for this is scaling problems with Blade Dance - it benefits from Crit less than Chaos Strike (which crits for 284% of base damage and refunds over half of the average cost on crit) and it doesn't benefit at all from Mastery since it does physical damage. The better gear you have, the worse Blade Dance becomes. In super high end gear it can be no DPS gain to take First Blood while Chaos Cleave - being a flat percentage damage increase to your main nuke - remains a core and powerful talent with something like +150k DPS.

I'd strongly suggest downloading latest nightly simcraft and working from the APL there, your APL is making multiple mistakes which are significantly larger than the effects that you're trying to test

Allthough you might be correct in theory, in reality First Blood is a single target gain over chaos cleave.
And, this is a prime example of where simulations tend to get things wrong, as it theoretically belives the gain from shards is worth more than then gain for a harder hitting First Blood during meta.

I have never ever had better results on single target or AOE using chaos cleave over First Blood.

[Svisalith]

Allthough you might be correct in theory, in reality First Blood is a single target gain over chaos cleave.
And, this is a prime example of where simulations tend to get things wrong, as it theoretically belives the gain from shards is worth more than then gain for a harder hitting First Blood during meta.

I have never ever had better results on single target or AOE using chaos cleave over First Blood.

It's not even close, this has gotta be a case of you doing it wrong. Every decent sim that i'm aware of says so and the highest ranked person using First Blood without t20 on Garothi mythic is rank #857.. with 2196k DPS vs the 2420k DPS of rank 100 and 2772k DPS of rank 1.

[Mifuyne]

I usually eyebeam > chaos strike until haste buff is gone > meta > eyebeam > chaos strike spam.
Unsure if this is the proper way to start a fight.

[Fiftyonred]

It's not even close, this has gotta be a case of you doing it wrong. Every decent sim that i'm aware of says so and the highest ranked person using First Blood without t20 on Garothi mythic is rank #857.. with 2196k DPS vs the 2420k DPS of rank 100 and 2772k DPS of rank 1.

There is no "doing it wrong" with chaos cleave. It literally changes nothing. I have never even seen someone beat me with this spec.
I have no gains in this, so i will not really spend time discussing it, but my advice would be: Try it.

The only argument you can make is that more Chaos Strike spamming is more orbs, which is more meta bla bla bla, but in reality the harder hitting Blade Dance makes up for it by a fair margen. Again, just try it.

If you know how to manage your orbs, and really maximize meta uptime, then hard fucking hitting blade dances are way more valuable.

#StopLookingAtTheSpreadsheetAndStartLookingAtTheGame

[Cariboulou]

There is no "doing it wrong" with chaos cleave. It literally changes nothing. I have never even seen someone beat me with this spec.
I have no gains in this, so i will not really spend time discussing it, but my advice would be: Try it.

The only argument you can make is that more Chaos Strike spamming is more orbs, which is more meta bla bla bla, but in reality the harder hitting Blade Dance makes up for it by a fair margen. Again, just try it.

If you know how to manage your orbs, and really maximize meta uptime, then hard fucking hitting blade dances are way more valuable.

#StopLookingAtTheSpreadsheetAndStartLookingAtTheGame

Chaos Cleave doesn't change anything in by itself, but since you're only using Chaos Strike and not Blade Dance you get more orbs for more fury for more Chaos Strikes which again give more fury which all end up with more meta for even stronger Chaos Strikes. You can argue for Blade Dance all you want but all the logs with T21 point to higher DPS with Chaos Cleave.

[Ophenia]

There is no "doing it wrong" with chaos cleave. It literally changes nothing. I have never even seen someone beat me with this spec.
I have no gains in this, so i will not really spend time discussing it, but my advice would be: Try it.

The only argument you can make is that more Chaos Strike spamming is more orbs, which is more meta bla bla bla, but in reality the harder hitting Blade Dance makes up for it by a fair margen. Again, just try it.

If you know how to manage your orbs, and really maximize meta uptime, then hard fucking hitting blade dances are way more valuable.

#StopLookingAtTheSpreadsheetAndStartLookingAtTheGame

#StopLookingAtYourDamageMeterAndStartLookingAtYourArtifactTraits

Why waste 20 rage on Blade Dance to deal X amount of damage when Annihilation will deal exactly the same amount, but with :
- Chaotic Onslaught (10% chance of Chaos Strike to strike another time)
- Inner Demons (dat AoE proc)
- Orbs generation, thus 35 energy + 5 sec reduction of Eye Beam (and Chaos Nova, always nice for MM+) thus better uptime on Metamorphosis
- A 50%+ chance that Chaos Strike only costs 20 Rage too

That's only worth using Blade Dance if there are 800 targets around because its damage will stack with their number.

[Chaelexi]

I use nemesis before eyebeam. I want to use every single gcd in the meta cooldown for annihilation spam.

Nemesis is off the GCD so you will not lose a gcd in the meta cooldown. You can even macro CS into nem

[Deleted]

Nemesis is off the GCD so you will not lose a gcd in the meta cooldown. You can even macro CS into nem

I know. But i want to buff my eyebeam too.

[Baroclinic]

Allthough you might be correct in theory, in reality First Blood is a single target gain over chaos cleave.
And, this is a prime example of where simulations tend to get things wrong, as it theoretically belives the gain from shards is worth more than then gain for a harder hitting First Blood during meta.

I have never ever had better results on single target or AOE using chaos cleave over First Blood.

I argued this, people call watchcraft if you say anything besides Icy. But until around ilvl 960, First Blood out damaged Chaos Cleave. Especially if you weave the Blade Dances correctly. It seems that Chaos Strike scales a tad higher with high agility and mastery so at the ilvl 964-ish point a Chaos Strike execution was equal to a Blade Dance execution (blade dance became a super cheap Chaos Strike). Still, Death Sweep out damaging Annaliation. You would need to get 3-4 annil swings every 4 seconds in order for Annil to actually out dps Death Sweep.

Still, this would require a near perfect world for cleave to still win, they're looking roughly equal to me. But playing overseas to a US server still leaves First Strike on top for me. Throw on top that I'm usually pugging with Oceano server people.

I just took a massive ilvl hit, put on 930ish 2-pc T20 with my 4 pc and my stuff scales again and I'm pulling between 80-90% on Vari/Imm/Garothi.

#StopLookingAtYourDamageMeterAndStartLookingAtYourArtifactTraits

Why waste 20 rage on Blade Dance to deal X amount of damage when Annihilation will deal exactly the same amount, but with :
- Chaotic Onslaught (10% chance of Chaos Strike to strike another time)
- Inner Demons (dat AoE proc)
- Orbs generation, thus 35 energy + 5 sec reduction of Eye Beam (and Chaos Nova, always nice for MM+) thus better uptime on Metamorphosis
- A 50%+ chance that Chaos Strike only costs 20 Rage too

That's only worth using Blade Dance if there are 800 targets around because its damage will stack with their number.

Or eh, actually look at numbers. Inner Demons don't proc enough. Woo! I get like a wopping 4-5 rages per fight!
LOL, your talking maybe 7-10 orbs extra at a 25% chance.
And Blade Dance has a 100% chance to only cost 15 rage...

And if there are 800 targets, Blade Dance's damage is increased by 2400% due to an inherit weapon trait on your artifact that increases damage by 3% per enemy nearby... I'm sure we could find a use with less mobs then that.

[Ophenia]

I argued this, people call watchcraft if you say anything besides Icy.

The first First Blood guy on Imonar Mythic on Warcraftlog is 125th, so where exactly is First Blood above Chaos Cleave in single target situation ?

Why do you ask people to look at damage meters when you actually cannot succeed at looking at damage meter yourself ? You've seen that there was a 3M damage that is above your 2M annihilation so you thought First Blood > Chaos Cleave right ?

[Fiftyonred]

The first First Blood guy on Imonar Mythic on Warcraftlog is 125th, so where exactly is First Blood above Chaos Cleave in single target situation ?

Why do you ask people to look at damage meters when you actually cannot succeed at looking at damage meter yourself ? You've seen that there was a 3M damage that is above your 2M annihilation so you thought First Blood > Chaos Cleave right ?

Wow, just wow.

How about this: Just.Test.It.Yourself.

Literally, just try.

Run Court of Stars 15 x10 times in a row.
Five with First Blood, 5 without.
Compare your damage
Notice that if you dont suck, you will always, always, always get higher results both single target and on AOE packs with First Blood.

I have never ever had worse results with First Blood, and i am the damn definition of the dungeon hero this expansion.
I am sitting at 970 now, but i have been testing this periodically ever since Chaos Cleave was a thing again.

Really, just....stop the just looking at other peoples performance or a simulation. Its just....lazy.

[Ophenia]

Wow, just wow.

How about this: Just.Test.It.Yourself.

Literally, just try.

Notice that if you dont suck, you will always, always, always get higher results both single target and on AOE packs with First Blood

No you don't, especially in Mythic+ setup.

I "literally" just tried. Everyone "literally" just tried, and everyone "literally" admitted Chaos Cleave was above First Blood (especially Mythic Raiding people who are always looking for that 0.1% damage increase to beat timers, not MM+ people talking about MM+ FIFTEEN ).

I don't really wish to continue this discussion as you're stuck on something everyone know is false. First Blood might be interesting when compared to Chaos Cleave alone, but when you consider all the artifact traits, talents, stats and passives, it is well behind (only one is affecting Blade dance, and a shitton affect Chaos Strike). And it's not your 10 CoS+15 that shall prove anything. Where on earth did you see that a 10x Sample was enough to define anything ? That's insane

[Rarespawn2012]

Eye Beam is only truly a treat when you can blast it on a pack of five or more with the head leggo. Running mythic khara to get ember wing, I managed to pull 3 million dps at ilvl 940 because the constant resets of eye beam on trash. Single target, eyebeam really only exists to get you into demon form for a few seconds.

[Deleted]

Wow, just wow.

How about this: Just.Test.It.Yourself.

Literally, just try.

Run Court of Stars 15 x10 times in a row.
Five with First Blood, 5 without.
Compare your damage
Notice that if you dont suck, you will always, always, always get higher results both single target and on AOE packs with First Blood.

I have never ever had worse results with First Blood, and i am the damn definition of the dungeon hero this expansion.
I am sitting at 970 now, but i have been testing this periodically ever since Chaos Cleave was a thing again.

Really, just....stop the just looking at other peoples performance or a simulation. Its just....lazy.

No you don't, especially in Mythic+ setup.

I "literally" just tried. Everyone "literally" just tried, and everyone "literally" admitted Chaos Cleave was above First Blood (especially Mythic Raiding people who are always looking for that 0.1% damage increase to beat timers, not MM+ people talking about MM+ FIFTEEN ).

I don't really wish to continue this discussion as you're stuck on something everyone know is false. First Blood might be interesting when compared to Chaos Cleave alone, but when you consider all the artifact traits, talents, stats and passives, it is well behind (only one is affecting Blade dance, and a shitton affect Chaos Strike). And it's not your 10 CoS+15 that shall prove anything. Where on earth did you see that a 10x Sample was enough to define anything ? That's insane

The whole point of chaos cleave is not only it's higher dps by itself. It's the extra chaos strike every 5-8sec or so for the extra orb.
One of you is talking about single target mythic raiding, the other brings in a multi target mythic+ argument.
That's like comparing sephuz to aothg...