The Alliance is the evil faction.

[Leodric]

I don't get those people who assume it is not an act of aggression to farm a newly discovered super-uranium like ressource under the circumstances the Horde and the Alliance are standing. History showed what the Horde is doing with powers like that, claiming the Alliance should think the Horde farms it peacfully is a complete joke and reeks of bias.

Cause that's what the Horde did in the past right

[Steampunkette]

I don't get those people who assume it is not an act of aggression to farm a newly discovered super-uranium like ressource under the circumstances the Horde and the Alliance are standing. History showed what the Horde is doing with powers like that, claiming the Alliance should think the Horde farms it peacfully is a complete joke and reeks of bias.

Cause that's what the Horde did in the past right

'Cause we know that the Alliance will be harvesting it ASAP as well and were spying on the Horde (and murdering goblins, and stealing Azerite, and blowing up machinery) before they knew what it was.

Besides which, there's also the question of what it can be used for and what Sylvanas would use it for. After all, her whole schtick prior to LK was solitude, in LK it was vengeance against Arthas, and since then it's been Immortality.

Surely the Blood of a Titan (the most powerful titan, no less) in crystalline form can't -possibly- be harnessed to make an undead person live again and be immortal, though, right? It can only be used for bombs. *sagenod*

[Ulthane]

All this crap about Alliance evil because we found the Azerite first. Pfffft ignorance.

1. Im wondering how Gallywix found out about this Azerite.
2. Im curious if the new section with the Twilights Hammer have anything to do with that Dark Rune in orgrimmar and if it relates to 1.
3. At this point its an arms race, no one wants Slyvannas to have that, not even the Horde. And the Horde doesnt want alliance to have it either.
4. Bluntly: it doesnt belong to the Horde or Alliance, it belongs to Azeroth. It is her blood.

Herp derp we gonna mine our dying world soul of her blood, alliance is evil. Yea okay. Both are neutral in allignment, there isnt a pure bad vs good. The whole concept is from butthurt bandwagon players who get salted over petty things when they dont pay attention to the finer lore details.

On that note, go read the journal from the Ogre rare in silithus. On another note pretty sure Mathias isnt to be trusted. "The boy king serves at the masters table"

[Zerzuru]

Another shit-thread, more will come and all will have sidenotes about what a bad guy is the chewbacca mentor.

[Leodric]

'Cause we know that the Alliance will be harvesting it ASAP as well and were spying on the Horde (and murdering goblins, and stealing Azerite, and blowing up machinery) before they knew what it was.

Besides which, there's also the question of what it can be used for and what Sylvanas would use it for. After all, her whole schtick prior to LK was solitude, in LK it was vengeance against Arthas, and since then it's been Immortality.

Surely the Blood of a Titan (the most powerful titan, no less) in crystalline form can't -possibly- be harnessed to make an undead person live again and be immortal, though, right? It can only be used for bombs. *sagenod*

Are you actually reading what others wrote here or is your bias towards the horde making you blind? What do you mean "before they knew what it was". I assume you watched the Alliance quest cinematic, they surely are capable to understand it contains a lot of power. You don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP, so no need to start with those kinds of arguments, cause they hold zero value.

What Sylvanas would use it for, she stated already she wants to turn Stormwind to dust and invade it, again, do you read what people wrote? I assume you do since you are engaged in discussions here from early pages. You have to get into the point of view from the Alliances side. Their interest lies in defending/keeping the state as it is now and not if Sylvanas is finding a new solution to her quest to immortality.

Point is, it's two big factions with a difficult past and constant wars and one side with the past of using such powerfull ressources as weapons of mass destruction. Stuff like this is happening right now IRL (The West and Iran for example) and it's seen as an act of aggression and answered with sanctions and if necessary with force.

Everything has been said here anyways already, I read your posts and really don't like to engage in a discussion with you about that topic, since it seems really tiresome explaining a biased person something, usually leads to nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

All this crap about Alliance evil because we found the Azerite first. Pfffft ignorance.

1. Im wondering how Gallywix found out about this Azerite.
2. Im curious if the new section with the Twilights Hammer have anything to do with that Dark Rune in orgrimmar and if it relates to 1.
3. At this point its an arms race, no one wants Slyvannas to have that, not even the Horde. And the Horde doesnt want alliance to have it either.
4. Bluntly: it doesnt belong to the Horde or Alliance, it belongs to Azeroth. It is her blood.

Herp derp we gonna mine our dying world soul of her blood, alliance is evil. Yea okay. Both are neutral in allignment, there isnt a pure bad vs good. The whole concept is from butthurt bandwagon players who get salted over petty things when they dont pay attention to the finer lore details.

On that note, go read the journal from the Ogre rare in silithus. On another note pretty sure Mathias isnt to be trusted. "The boy king serves at the masters table"

I am really hoping Blizzard planned something more bland than a normal faction war. I think the old gods have their hands in that as well, because I don't think that the Horde would be so stupid to burn the NE Capitol out of nowhere. Also with the new allied races it might be interesting. I fear Blizzard won't really integrate them into the story as big playmakers, even though they hold a lot of might (Zandalar trolls especially and a free united Nightborne faction seem to be really powerfull)

[Tarba]

Remember when Varian saved Garrosh from a crushed skull by the hand of Thrall? Then Garrosh goes batshit crazy and we got wod. The worst expansion of wow.
So the alliance is the evil faction. Clearly. Nothing new here.

[Steampunkette]

Are you actually reading what others wrote here or is your bias towards the horde making you blind? What do you mean "before they knew what it was". I assume you watched the Alliance quest cinematic, they surely are capable to understand it contains a lot of power. You don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP, so no need to start with those kinds of arguments, cause they hold zero value.

What Sylvanas would use it for, she stated already she wants to turn Stormwind to dust and invade it, again, do you read what people wrote? I assume you do since you are engaged in discussions here from early pages. You have to get into the point of view from the Alliances side. Their interest lies in defending/keeping the state as it is now and not if Sylvanas is finding a new solution to her quest to immortality.

Point is, it's two big factions with a difficult past and constant wars and one side with the past of using such powerfull ressources as weapons of mass destruction. Stuff like this is happening right now IRL (The West and Iran for example) and it's seen as an act of aggression and answered with sanctions and if necessary with force.

Everything has been said here anyways already, I read your posts and really don't like to engage in a discussion with you about that topic, since it seems really tiresome explaining a biased person something, usually leads to nothing.

Hey hey! That's 12 "Horde Bias" to only 5 "Alliance Bias". Nice!

Shaw and his Spies were already in Silithus before the players knew diddly squat in the Cinematic, because the Cinematic happens some un-expressed amount of time before the Players are shown it and Shaw's collection of the Azerite from the Goblin Mining Operation occurred some un-expressed amount of time before -that-. (It should take months to get from Silithus to Stormwind, but it's probably going to be handwaved as him traveling at the speed of plot).

And we know the spies have been reacting to being caught with violence, so it at the very -least- stands to reason that since the Orc Overseer already knows there are spies, there, when the Horde Player Arrives, they've already been fighting them off to some degree. Which means dead spies and/or dead goblins before the Alliance or the Horde even arrives on the scene.

And nah. We don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP. But we know that the Alliance -will- be mining it. And so will everyone else in BFA. And judging by the Alliance Cinematic it's pretty clear that the Azerite -itself- has some kind of mystical effect on people. It wasn't -quite- so obvious with Sylvanas, but listen to the music and look at Anduin's expression and it's pretty clear he's got that One Ring (of Azerite) fever.

Sylvanas wants to turn Stormwind to dust, you say? I'll ask for a Citation. She does mention to Blightcaller (In the upcoming novel's prologue) that there's a battle she and he have "Longed For" and then follows it up with a single word: Stormwind. But Narrative Phrasing and Rhetorical Flare means her actual intent could be everything from "Burn the whole Alliance to the ground", as you're suggesting, to "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty" or even "Go get Greymane and drag his ass out of Stormwind for his attempted assassination in the Broken Isles"

So far in the real world only one military force has ever, in the history of the world, used a true Weapon of Mass Destruction to kill people. A full on Nuclear Bomb. And we did it twice. Even during the Arms Race and the Cold War and Vietnam, Desert Storm, and however many other battles and skirmishes and wars, no one else has used one, but it hasn't been Japan stopping people from dropping nukes. There's also the question of whether it IS a fissile material. Whether it is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" or just something really powerful. Everyone leaps to Uranium, but it could just as easily be "Immortalitium" which would be something Sylvanas has been -repeatedly- shown to want.

Either Blizzard is discarding Sylvanas's central trait of wanting to extend her own life and the lives of her people indefinitely to avoid the Shadowlands, and she just wants to kill everyone everywhere 'cause they're putting the villain hat on her this expansion (Which is not impossible, surely) or you and others are jumping to a mischaracterization based on your own personal biases and perspectives.

I tend to believe the latter.

[lockybalboa]

The Horde are always the ones stirring shit and starting conflicts. Stop finding excuses just because you play in that faction. First Theramore and now this tree shitstorm. Now that the Alliance are finally tired of being suckers and retaliating Horde fanboys start QQ-ing and whining. Get a grip ffs.

[ManiaCCC]

The Horde are always the ones stirring shit and starting conflicts. Stop finding excuses just because you play in that faction. First Theramore and now this tree shitstorm. Now that the Alliance are finally tired of being suckers and retaliating Horde fanboys start QQ-ing and whining. Get a grip ffs.

Are people always so insecure?

[Leodric]

Hey hey! That's 12 "Horde Bias" to only 5 "Alliance Bias". Nice!

Shaw and his Spies were already in Silithus before the players knew diddly squat in the Cinematic, because the Cinematic happens some un-expressed amount of time before the Players are shown it and Shaw's collection of the Azerite from the Goblin Mining Operation occurred some un-expressed amount of time before -that-. (It should take months to get from Silithus to Stormwind, but it's probably going to be handwaved as him traveling at the speed of plot).

And we know the spies have been reacting to being caught with violence, so it at the very -least- stands to reason that since the Orc Overseer already knows there are spies, there, when the Horde Player Arrives, they've already been fighting them off to some degree. Which means dead spies and/or dead goblins before the Alliance or the Horde even arrives on the scene.

And nah. We don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP. But we know that the Alliance -will- be mining it. And so will everyone else in BFA. And judging by the Alliance Cinematic it's pretty clear that the Azerite -itself- has some kind of mystical effect on people. It wasn't -quite- so obvious with Sylvanas, but listen to the music and look at Anduin's expression and it's pretty clear he's got that One Ring (of Azerite) fever.

Sylvanas wants to turn Stormwind to dust, you say? I'll ask for a Citation. She does mention to Blightcaller (In the upcoming novel's prologue) that there's a battle she and he have "Longed For" and then follows it up with a single word: Stormwind. But Narrative Phrasing and Rhetorical Flare means her actual intent could be everything from "Burn the whole Alliance to the ground", as you're suggesting, to "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty" or even "Go get Greymane and drag his ass out of Stormwind for his attempted assassination in the Broken Isles"

So far in the real world only one military force has ever, in the history of the world, used a true Weapon of Mass Destruction to kill people. A full on Nuclear Bomb. And we did it twice. Even during the Arms Race and the Cold War and Vietnam, Desert Storm, and however many other battles and skirmishes and wars, no one else has used one, but it hasn't been Japan stopping people from dropping nukes. There's also the question of whether it IS a fissile material. Whether it is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" or just something really powerful. Everyone leaps to Uranium, but it could just as easily be "Immortalitium" which would be something Sylvanas has been -repeatedly- shown to want.

Either Blizzard is discarding Sylvanas's central trait of wanting to extend her own life and the lives of her people indefinitely to avoid the Shadowlands, and she just wants to kill everyone everywhere 'cause they're putting the villain hat on her this expansion (Which is not impossible, surely) or you and others are jumping to a mischaracterization based on your own personal biases and perspectives.

I tend to believe the latter.

So we don't know if the Horde started to kill spies first or if the spies to kill the Goblins first.
Alright, Sylvanas said there is a battle she longed for and it could mean that she meant "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty". Are you seriously beliving that? I mean, you seriously believe that there is the possibility that she wants to force mere "peace treaty" by saying "there is a battle she longed for". Aaaaalright

Sylvanas has also -repeatedly- shown that she is not the selfless and peacefull person you try to represent her as. She has shown far more often what she is willing to do to reach her goals (torture, kill, rise people from the dead, and so on).

I don't think anyone is trying to jump to a mischaracterization of sylvanas, she did a pretty good job showing what her true nature is.
Also implying that Anduins expression had any kind of power hungry look in it is laughable at best if not even sad how far biased you are to twist stuff like that. He looks obviously worried/engaged.

[Cucultlan]

ITT: Butthurt Horde who've conveniently forgotten that time the Horde nuked Theramore for absolutely no reason, killing thousands of civilian men women and children.

no civilian was killed here, the one who stayed there were now soilders because there were to fight for theramore. and theramore was a legimite war target as soon as Jaina broke his threat with Orgrimmar as a peaceful city, given they let tanks to pass and war fleets to embark on their docks.

(sorry for the bad english but you might get the idea)

[Deleted]

No, the Alliance didn't start anything. Here is why:
1. The quest didn't say anything about killing/murdering goblins, just fighting my way out.
2. I didn't start to attack the goblins, the goblins started to attack me (hostile mobs that attack me if I get too close). I just went into the zone to get the ore, and when I tried to do that, the goblins started to attack me. So I attacked them back, in self defense. They could have just handed me the ore, but no, they had to use violence.

And this is the truth. You can't prove the opposite. So no, the alliance have not started a war. But when a NPC starts anything, in a cinematic in the game or in a trailer, we can start talking about being an aggressor. Until then, nothing.

[Chinese Bootlickers]

So we don't know if the Horde started to kill spies first or if the spies to kill the Goblins first.
Alright, Sylvanas said there is a battle she longed for and it could mean that she meant "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty". Are you seriously beliving that? I mean, you seriously believe that there is the possibility that she wants to force mere "peace treaty" by saying "there is a battle she longed for". Aaaaalright

Sylvanas has also -repeatedly- shown that she is not the selfless and peacefull person you try to represent her as. She has shown far more often what she is willing to do to reach her goals (torture, kill, rise people from the dead, and so on).

I don't think anyone is trying to jump to a mischaracterization of sylvanas, she did a pretty good job showing what her true nature is.

I'd just stop trying to reason with her, most of her posts can be boiled down to a single gif;

[Ghargatuloth]

I'd just stop trying to reason with her, most of her posts can be boiled down to a single gif;
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...532-fhxerc.gif

I can vouch for this statement as well... You'd be better off arguing with a wall, that one will ignore everything you say. Nothing you say will make a difference until Sylvanas is standing atop a burning Stormwind while eating a live human baby... At which point they MIGHT humor the idea she is bad, but might also chalk it up to that child secretly having been an old god seed sent to destroy us all.

[Orby]

no civilian was killed here, the one who stayed there were now soilders because there were to fight for theramore. and theramore was a legimite war target as soon as Jaina broke his threat with Orgrimmar as a peaceful city, given they let tanks to pass and war fleets to embark on their docks.

(sorry for the bad english but you might get the idea)

Most of the civilians that escaped Theramore were captured by the Horde, most are seen hung up in Orgrimmar in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid.

[Leodric]

I can vouch for this statement as well... You'd be better off arguing with a wall, that one will ignore everything you say. Nothing you say will make a difference until Sylvanas is standing atop a burning Stormwind while eating a live human baby... At which point they MIGHT humor the idea she is bad, but might also chalk it up to that child secretly having been an old god seed sent to destroy us all.

I know, it was just too much to bear, some statements are just too silly. It's impossible .
The gif made me actually laugh though.

[Cucultlan]

Most of the civilians that escaped Theramore were captured by the Horde, most are seen hung up in Orgrimmar in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid.

on here i meant with theramore mana bomb, my bad. Garrosh intercepted, captured and MURDERED the theramore civilians, sure.
i dont even remember when its stated they were capture but its portrayed to the rest of the Horde (not garrosh or blackrock loyalist) that they be left to escape at the momemt of the theramore bomb.

on topic of the thread

what i dont understand is why the alliance fans are trying so hard to be always the Goodie good guys, the "white" faction in the black and white world of warcraft... and thats not the case, both factions are on grayscales... not fully bad neither fully good

[Ghargatuloth]

on here i meant with theramore mana bomb, my bad. Garrosh intercepted, captured and MURDERED the theramore civilians, sure.
i dont even remember when its stated they were capture but its portrayed to the rest of the Horde (not garrosh or blackrock loyalist) that they be left to escape at the momemt of the theramore bomb.

on topic of the thread

what i dont understand is why the alliance fans are trying so hard to be always the Goodie good guys, the "white" faction in the black and white world of warcraft... and thats not the case, both factions are on grayscales... not fully bad neither fully good

If you are going to blame the entire Alliance for the actions of one Greymane, you cannot exempt the horde from the actions of Garrosh.

[Cucultlan]

If you are going to blame the entire Alliance for the actions of one Greymane, you cannot exempt the horde from the actions of Garrosh.

at the moment we face the capture and murder of the theramore civilians, we are already at war with Garrosh true horde at you can see on the SoO; and if you mean of the moment of the capture (the battle of theramore) sure even if the Blackrock clan always worked on the sides for Garrosh, sure they are still Horde active members at the moment and can count the action of them as Horde actions. not denying it (at least i dont).

but trying to give Graymane free pass is too wrong, cause even if the grudge against Sylv is fully justified, he is a Leader of the Alliance and he is doing acts of agression of moments of "no agression" in the campain vs the Legion (no aggression and allies are different). Thus his action can be considerate as acts of war (even if the alliance as a whole doesnt know about it) cause he a leader and active member of it. its the same cease with the Blackrock Kor'kron on the times of Garrosh can be considerated acts of war of the horde.

[Ghargatuloth]

at the moment we face the capture and murder of the theramore civilians, we are already at war with Garrosh true horde at you can see on the SoO; and if you mean of the moment of the capture (the battle of theramore) sure even if the Blackrock clan always worked on the sides for Garrosh, sure they are still Horde active members at the moment and can count the action of them as Horde actions. not denying it (at least i dont).

but trying to give Graymane free pass is too wrong, cause even if the grudge against Sylv is fully justified, he is a Leader of the Alliance and he is doing acts of agression of moments of "no agression" in the campain vs the Legion (no aggression and allies are different). Thus his action can be considerate as acts of war (even if the alliance as a whole doesnt know about it) cause he a leader and active member of it. its the same cease with the Blackrock Kor'kron on the times of Garrosh can be considerated acts of war of the horde.

I never said that Graymane should get a free pass. But the thing about Graymane is that he failed everything aside from freeing Odin's Valajar factory. Garrosh on the other hand bombed the Warcraft equivalent of France then had civilians who were simply trying to run for their lives captured, tortured, and killed. At least those Graymane attacked could fight back.