Freshly dinged 110's in BG's.

[Krusza]

A

That makes no sense.

How come every other expansion a freshly digned character would tickle you and literally die in about 5 globals, whereas now you can actually somewhat compete with them?

[Mafic]

That makes no sense.

How come every other expansion a freshly digned character would tickle you and literally die in about 5 globals, whereas now you can actually somewhat compete with them?

The freshly dinged characters can not compete now and it is worse. It is worse than previous expansions because of pruning, honor talents being gated behind a grind to unlock. Having to do PVE quest chains to unlock artifact weapons and gated by mission boards. Previous expansions put an upper gear cap in PVP which was removed which allows titanforging to completely wreck Legion instanced PVP despite template, normalization, etc.

I have a principal of war buff at 14% and my concordance if I remember correctly is 28. I am considered the "low end" gear wise compared to players that are 960+ ilevel gear wise and have much higher concordance level than I do.

A Legion freshly dinged character with first column of honor talents unlocked and concordance rank 1 is simply a speed bump to me. In previous expansion, that same player would have the same conquest gear I would have within a month.

[JoshuaNLG]

Elitists ruin everything for casuals.

Nothing to do with Elitism, these people are just seriously hindered in how they can perform in a BG. They're going to have anywhere from 1 to 2m less HP than most players, while doing about half of their damage at the same time. It's not a good experience for both them and their team, go do an emissary daily and get instantly boosted to concordance and THEN queue. Takes like 20-30 minutes at most.

Someone lost a BG and have to blame it on something else than him self

Won the BG actually, but a comment from a player within said BG is what pushed me into making this thread, said person was a Paladin healer with about 12 deaths and less healing than a rogue on our team. I wasn't aware i was able to be grouped with players who have literally just dinged 110 when I've got multiple prestiges under my belt.

[Raugnaut]

Well it certainly gives the lie to the "you can just jump right in!!!11!1!!!1!" nonsense that Blizzard spewed about PvP at the start of the xpac.

Missing traits can mean ~25% less HP, concordance is a HUGE buff for some classes (ones that get Vers become nearly immortal for a bit), and not having your full set of PvP talents unlocked on like half the classes can mean you're totally useless (whereas on some you dont even need PvP talents to be viable).

Remember that Concordance is at half value in PvP.

With that being said, it just takes 1-2 dailies to unlock Concordance in Legion. Once you unlock Concordance, doing all available AP WQs will give another 10 ranks in Concordance. Once thats done, its basically a 2-3 week grind to get to 75, at which point you are pretty much caught up to casual players.

While there is a HUGE difference between someone with 0 artifact lvls, and someone with 75 artifact lvls (50% stamina, missing defensives, damage, ect), there is a significantly less difference between someone with 60 artifact lvls and 75 (9% stamina, and a proc worth ~200 primary stat on average, or 7% more burst with Concordance up. A difference, yes, but one thats similar between someone with full Honor, and someone with full Conquest gear from WoD)

As for gear? If you have 800 ilvl, someone with 970 ilvl (A mythic raider with shit-ton of titanforged) will only have 17% more stats then you. If you are 900 ilvl (Easy to do in a week), they will only have 7% more stats then you. If you are 930 ilvl (About what you get with 2 legendaries and full relinquished, with a bit of titanforging, or about 3 weeks in), thats only 4% more stats then you. And your average PvP Joe will be right at your lvl, despite the fact that he may have been playing since the start of 7.0.

So for this expansion, you get to the point that Honor gear would have you at in WoD... In 2 dailies. You get to the point where mostly Conquest would have you at.. In 2-3 weeks. Catchup is easy, for sure

Now, random BGs? Sure, you may have gotten a scrub, but you could have just as easily got a bot, or a troll, or even more scrubs.

So, really, there are 3 forms of catchup - AP, in which the majority of its power can be acquired in 1 day, gear, which isn't as significant and can be taken care of in a week, similar to Honor/Conquest...
And Honor Talents, which is a bit uneven per spec. Some specs, you just need to fully unlock your first tier, and you are good to go. Other specs, your lvl 47 honor talent may be the one talent that you 100% need to preform well in PvP. But, your first tier of talents can be done by just doing all PVP WQs, and winning a BG a day in a week, and the complete set is about 3 weeks in, so its more akin to the conquest grind.

[Krusza]

Remember that Concordance is at half value in PvP.

With that being said, it just takes 1-2 dailies to unlock Concordance in Legion. Once you unlock Concordance, doing all available AP WQs will give another 10 ranks in Concordance. Once thats done, its basically a 2-3 week grind to get to 75, at which point you are pretty much caught up to casual players.

While there is a HUGE difference between someone with 0 artifact lvls, and someone with 75 artifact lvls (50% stamina, missing defensives, damage, ect), there is a significantly less difference between someone with 60 artifact lvls and 75 (9% stamina, and a proc worth ~200 primary stat on average, or 7% more burst with Concordance up. A difference, yes, but one thats similar between someone with full Honor, and someone with full Conquest gear from WoD)

As for gear? If you have 800 ilvl, someone with 970 ilvl (A mythic raider with shit-ton of titanforged) will only have 17% more stats then you. If you are 900 ilvl (Easy to do in a week), they will only have 7% more stats then you. If you are 930 ilvl (About what you get with 2 legendaries and full relinquished, with a bit of titanforging, or about 3 weeks in), thats only 4% more stats then you. And your average PvP Joe will be right at your lvl, despite the fact that he may have been playing since the start of 7.0.

So for this expansion, you get to the point that Honor gear would have you at in WoD... In 2 dailies. You get to the point where mostly Conquest would have you at.. In 2-3 weeks. Catchup is easy, for sure

Now, random BGs? Sure, you may have gotten a scrub, but you could have just as easily got a bot, or a troll, or even more scrubs.

So, really, there are 3 forms of catchup - AP, in which the majority of its power can be acquired in 1 day, gear, which isn't as significant and can be taken care of in a week, similar to Honor/Conquest...
And Honor Talents, which is a bit uneven per spec. Some specs, you just need to fully unlock your first tier, and you are good to go. Other specs, your lvl 47 honor talent may be the one talent that you 100% need to preform well in PvP. But, your first tier of talents can be done by just doing all PVP WQs, and winning a BG a day in a week, and the complete set is about 3 weeks in, so its more akin to the conquest grind.

I argued with him before. He blocked me because all he said was "muh maths" and didn't understand that it takes a day to get like 870 ilvl and a few ranks into concordance and based it off of "0 traits and 800 ilvl"

[Kagthul]

Remember that Concordance is at half value in PvP.

Yeah, so its only 200 points/rank rather than 400.

With that being said, it just takes 1-2 dailies to unlock Concordance in Legion. Once you unlock Concordance, doing all available AP WQs will give another 10 ranks in Concordance. Once thats done, its basically a 2-3 week grind to get to 75, at which point you are pretty much caught up to casual players.

I want you to do the math here. Previously, you could get that close in Six. Hours. . Now its "2-3 weeks".

While there is a HUGE difference between someone with 0 artifact lvls, and someone with 75 artifact lvls (50% stamina, missing defensives, damage, ect), there is a significantly less difference between someone with 60 artifact lvls and 75 (9% stamina, and a proc worth ~200 primary stat on average, or 7% more burst with Concordance up. A difference, yes, but one thats similar between someone with full Honor, and someone with full Conquest gear from WoD)

Yep, about the difference between full Conquest and full Honor gear. Just from this one thing. We haven't even gotten into gear yet.

As for gear? If you have 800 ilvl, someone with 970 ilvl (A mythic raider with shit-ton of titanforged) will only have 17% more stats then you.

Only? That's TWICE the gap of any prior expac. And uh... no, 970 would be baseline mythic. Heroic Antorus is 960 base. And is puggable. Hell, my toons are all between 940-950 (5 toons) and i haven't set foot into even LFR since 7.1 (for the Nightborne mount, once), and only once before that in 7.0 (for herbalism on one toon, just Xavius).. and i've only done a few mythic+ dungeons 2 seasons ago. If i were just PvPing, though, i'd be at 890. Let that sink in.

If you are 900 ilvl (Easy to do in a week), they will only have 7% more stats then you.

So, after a week of not PvPing, but rather grinding world quests.... will get you to where you could have been in six hours in any previous xpac. Gotcha.

If you are 930 ilvl (About what you get with 2 legendaries and full relinquished, with a bit of titanforging, or about 3 weeks in), thats only 4% more stats then you. And your average PvP Joe will be right at your lvl, despite the fact that he may have been playing since the start of 7.0.

So, after weeks of not doing PvP, but rather PvE.... do you see where this is going? Do you see what you're saying?

So for this expansion, you get to the point that Honor gear would have you at in WoD... In 2 dailies.

No you dont, because you're still an entire set of Honor talents behind, and ~15% behind on gear.

You get to the point where mostly Conquest would have you at.. In 2-3 weeks. Catchup is easy, for sure

If we're talking "catchup" and not starting from the begning, you could have a full set of Conquest gear this late into any given season in a few hours.

Now, random BGs? Sure, you may have gotten a scrub, but you could have just as easily got a bot, or a troll, or even more scrubs.

So, really, there are 3 forms of catchup - AP, in which the majority of its power can be acquired in 1 day, gear, which isn't as significant and can be taken care of in a week, similar to Honor/Conquest...
And Honor Talents, which is a bit uneven per spec. Some specs, you just need to fully unlock your first tier, and you are good to go. Other specs, your lvl 47 honor talent may be the one talent that you 100% need to preform well in PvP. But, your first tier of talents can be done by just doing all PVP WQs, and winning a BG a day in a week, and the complete set is about 3 weeks in, so its more akin to the conquest grind.

Gear is MORE significant.

Honor gear could be acquired in HOURS in previous expansions, putting you (at worst, in TBC) 10.1% behind. (And actually, in TBC, you could craft Honor gear the first season). Now it takes weeks to catch up to about where the gap between Honor and CQ gear was in every prior xpac... AND you can still easily be 9-10% behind in stats from Traits, AND you can be missing your honor talents...

And that's just this late into the xpac, where the catchup has been SIGNIFICANTLY dumbed down, speeded up, and overhauled. For 90% of the expansion so far it was a total shit show that was worse in every way than any previous xpac.

It's STILL worse.

The most efficient way to gear up for PvP is to PvE. Let that sink in.

And it still takes weeks, instead of hours.

Like i said, we beat this horse to death. Three times. With math.

The new system is worse. Full stop. Even after the entire xpac worth of changes to met it LESS shitty, it's STILL worse than the old system was. Its not an opinion. It's math.

[rda]

It is amazing how time after time folks who did not really do math on that come and proclaim that the power difference in PVP in Legion is smaller than it was before, then Kagthul (or someone else, but mostly Kagthul) shows them the numbers and clearly explains that it is exactly the reverse and the power difference in PVP in Legion is LARGER than it was before. Then whoever was proclaiming the nonsense typically shuts up, because, well, can't argue with numbers, but every new month we have a new batch.

Kagthul, just put a link to one of the big posts of yours on the topic into your signature and refer people to it.

[Yoshimiko]

I have not once payed with a Prestige 3 or higher when I was a fresh 110.

This is a silly complaint and fresh 110s have their own bracket. You aren't put into a higher bracket 'til you have all of your skills in my experience. And even then, you're still in a low bracket 'til you hit around prestige 3 or so.

Now, if people are cheating the system by grouping with higher prestiged players, welcome to trolls in mmos. Or just ignorance. Either or. Sucks, but not a lot you can do about it and it's so rare...it doesn't seem worth complaining about.

[Mafic]

It is amazing how time after time folks who did not really do math on that come and proclaim that the power difference in PVP in Legion is smaller than it was before, then Kagthul (or someone else, but mostly Kagthul) shows them the numbers and clearly explains that it is exactly the reverse and the power difference in PVP in Legion is LARGER than it was before. Then whoever was proclaiming the nonsense typically shuts up, because, well, can't argue with numbers, but every new month we have a new batch.

Kagthul, just put a link to one of the big posts of yours on the topic into your signature and refer people to it.

True, but what is the fun in that?

The funny thing is that your weapon ilevel translates to significant damage for a melee DPS player despite Blizz insistence on PVP being balanced.

Also, some specs and classes have their primary state nerfed significantly because of teamplate to the point that each point of Concordance of Legionfall is a huge boost of performance to that spec.

Good example is Sub, Outlaw, and Assassination Rogues which all have huge nerfs to primary stat agility. That is why a low geared Sub Rogue opening with dance is simply an annoyance versus a well geared Sub Rogue with high Legion of concordance can kill you within a dance + smokebomb.

[Krusza]

It is amazing how time after time folks who did not really do math on that come and proclaim that the power difference in PVP in Legion is smaller than it was before, then Kagthul (or someone else, but mostly Kagthul) shows them the numbers and clearly explains that it is exactly the reverse and the power difference in PVP in Legion is LARGER than it was before. Then whoever was proclaiming the nonsense typically shuts up, because, well, can't argue with numbers, but every new month we have a new batch.

Kagthul, just put a link to one of the big posts of yours on the topic into your signature and refer people to it.

No, it's usually kagthul that shuts up because he blocks people that argue with his flawed reasoning.

I levelled an alt not too long ago, with a day of farming you're not that far behind the average BG players. It NEVER took 6 hours to catch up in any other expansion.

[rda]

No, it's usually kagthul that shuts up because he blocks people that argue with his flawed reasoning.

I levelled an alt not too long ago, with a day of farming you're not that far behind the average BG players. It NEVER took 6 hours to catch up in any other expansion.

Here we go again.

You think capitalizing the word "never" will make your point for you. No, it won't. Come with numbers. (Long and short, the power difference to which you "caught up" in 6 hours in Legion is significantly bigger than the difference to which you would catch up in the same time in WoD.)

[Kagthul]

I put him on ignore because i proved him flat out wrong three times.

With math.

And he just comes back with anecdotal bullshit and no proof.

He isn't worth having an argument with, because he can't accept reality, or facts, and relies entirely on anecdotal evidence, or how he "feels".

Just stop engaging him. Anyone who listens to his bullshit gets what they deserve at this point.

[Sparklelord]

Can you at LEAST unlock concordance before you join a BG, and not join with 6 traits unlocked on your weapon?

Thanks, a disgruntled PvPer.

You literally get Concordance from turning in your first class hall quest at 110 lol. Not sure how people are getting there with only 6 traits

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Can you at LEAST unlock concordance before you join a BG, and not join with 6 traits unlocked on your weapon?

Thanks, a disgruntled PvPer.

This argument is as old as Battlegrounds are now. "Fresh Max level characters cost me a BG and now I'm gonna throw a fit. Why can't they at least do X to get themselves up to Y? However, I'm going to conveniently ignore all the games I may have won because the other team had fresh max level characters"

[MrKnubbles]

Thanks, a disgruntled PvPer.

I firmly believe that all PvPers are disgruntled. Hence, the incessant rage emitted by them in EVERY battleground.

[Krusza]

I put him on ignore because i proved him flat out wrong three times.

With math.

And he just comes back with anecdotal bullshit and no proof.

He isn't worth having an argument with, because he can't accept reality, or facts, and relies entirely on anecdotal evidence, or how he "feels".

Just stop engaging him. Anyone who listens to his bullshit gets what they deserve at this point.

I mean, altering numbers to fit your narrative isn't exactly sound, either.

[eNjoirobbin]

I wasn't aware i was able to be grouped with players who have literally just dinged 110 when I've got multiple prestiges under my belt.

It's because they queued with someone who is at least prestige 1.

And yeah, some times you just get grouped up with someone who is completely new to their class and is being as useful as captain Hook at a gynaecologists convention. As Taylor Swift once said: "Just sh-sh-sh-shake it off".

[Deleted]

Btw, 9/10 times when I play some random BG's I form a 5 man premade through the group finder.

The experience is so much better then.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I quit battlegrounds to team based now. I mean I'm item level 872 and have a long way to go but if I need my team to do everything. I don't want to play at all. At least pve's fun.

[Liandryl]

The worst new 110 I got did not even use his artifact weapon. Mistweaver monk with less than 3million hp and no artifact weapon.... Let's just say he was completely useless.