Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Darktbs]

Might as well be 'Allied Classes' :P

Clear Naxxramas, be Exalted with the Cult of the Damned, Complete "Kel'thuzad coming"

I don't know why but this sounds way to real and too scary.

[Teriz]

This is not you being smart, Teriz. This is you saying you have no proof whatsoever. When asked, yet you don't show any, it tells people all you got are empty claims and no substance.

Nah, I just have no desire to waste my time doing something that you could just as easily do. If you were an honest broker you would simply admit to it, but since you're not, you're playing some silly game that eventually makes the conversation irrelevant.

"Holy is the domain of the priest class", false. Paladins exist.

I said "Holy Hymns" not the Holy school of magic. That right there is simply another example of your BS.

Spell types are shared among several classes. "Hymns are the domain of the priest class", false. Priests have one single hymn. If we go by that logic, "physical ranged" is the domain of the hunter class, then that means a tinker cannot exist.

In the span of WoW they've had two Hymn spells, and they've been the only class that's had those abilities. Additionally, the hymn spell you mentioned is a holy-based spell, just like the other two Priest hymns, so there's no reason it wouldn't fit perfectly in the Priest class.

Further, Hunter is no longer the only class that is physical ranged. Rogues also use guns and canons now.

"What every review says" is completely irrelevant to the question, and it's nothing but goalpost moving.

It's the experience of someone who has actually built and played the device in question. If every review is saying that its not worth building, playing, and basically a waste of time, then that tells me that it doesn't satisfy the desire of a class that pilots mechs.

I re-read post #642 and at no point I see anything remotely resembling "engineers replace their own class' speed boost ability with engineering's rocket boost."

Am I supposed to be surprised that you don't see exactly what you wrote? That's par for the course when it comes to how you argue.

No one is talking about "physics of the game". It's about "suspension of disbelief". Ammo, grenades, traps, and even beer kegs are minor, near inconsequential, when compared to giant, technologically advanced war mechs. Your insistence that a mech can be stockpiled as easily as ammo and kegs only hurts your arguments.

It doesn't hurt my argument because no one cares. Everyone recognizes that this is just a video game (except for you apparently). No player is going to wonder how a Tinker can re-summon a mech after they self destruct, just like no player wonders how the Brewmaster can smash infinite kegs over the heads of enemies. Saying that this is a problem is like saying that the fact that our characters never use the bathroom or can run or swim forever (while in full armor and carrying hundreds of items) is a problem.

Spoiler: It's not a problem.

[Ielenia]

Nah, I just have no desire to waste my time doing something that you could just as easily do.

Again, you're not being smart, here, Teriz. You made a claim and are refusing to back up that claim.

If you were an honest broker you would simply admit to it, but since you're not, you're playing some silly game that eventually makes the conversation irrelevant.

The irony here is palpable...

I said "Holy Hymns" not the Holy school of magic. That right there is simply another example of your BS.

So if Bards had a hymn that was based on any other type of magic, would that be fine? If bards had holy-based spells that aren't named "hymns" would that be fine? And again, I must remind you: just because priests have one ability named "hymn" does not automatically make all hymns propriety of the priest. Must I remind you that Priests used to have a spell called "devouring plague"? Does that mean plagues were the domain of the priest?

In the span of WoW they've had two Hymn spells, and they've been the only class that's had those abilities. Additionally, the hymn spell you mentioned is a holy-based spell, just like the other two Priest hymns, so there's no reason it wouldn't fit perfectly in the Priest class.

Wow. Two... out of several dozens. Bravo. And again, that spell being named 'hymn' and being 'holy-based' is irrelevant. I return to my previous example: "devouring plague" used to be a priest spell that dealt shadow damage. But now... isn't plague now the Death Knight's domain? Shadow-damage plagues?

Further, Hunter is no longer the only class that is physical ranged. Rogues also use guns and canons now.

Can you get in raids and say "hey guys, I'm a ranged rogue. No, I don't stay in melee, I remain at ranged shooting guns and canons" and still keep that spot in the raid, provided the raid leader is not said rogue's friend?

It's the experience of someone who has actually built and played the device in question.

No, it's not. The question was not "is it worth to build the engineering's combat mech?" It was "does engineering allow you to fight in mechs?"

Am I supposed to be surprised that you don't see exactly what you wrote? That's par for the course when it comes to how you argue.

It just shows what your interpretation of what I wrote is wrong. Also stop projecting.

It doesn't hurt my argument because no one cares.

I know you don't care when it suits your agenda.

[Teriz]

So if Bards had a hymn that was based on any other type of magic, would that be fine? If bards had holy-based spells that aren't named "hymns" would that be fine? And again, I must remind you: just because priests have one ability named "hymn" does not automatically make all hymns propriety of the priest. Must I remind you that Priests used to have a spell called "devouring plague"? Does that mean plagues were the domain of the priest?

Again they had two holy hymn spells, and the spell you linked to was another holy hymn spell. Why would Blizzard create a new class to house holy hymns when there's already a class that does that very thing?

Plagues were always out of place for Shadow Priests, which is why it was eventually removed. However, a Priest performing Hymns based on holy magic is definitely not out of place.

Wow. Two... out of several dozens. Bravo. And again, that spell being named 'hymn' and being 'holy-based' is irrelevant. I return to my previous example: "devouring plague" used to be a priest spell that dealt shadow damage. But now... isn't plague now the Death Knight's domain? Shadow-damage plagues?

See above.

Can you get in raids and say "hey guys, I'm a ranged rogue. No, I don't stay in melee, I remain at ranged shooting guns and canons" and still keep that spot in the raid, provided the raid leader is not said rogue's friend?

So you're saying that you've never used Pistol Shot or Between the Eyes from 20yds? What about Cannonball Barrage from 35 yards? If you're not taking advantage of being able to attack from ranged, you're doing it wrong.

No, it's not. The question was not "is it worth to build the engineering's combat mech?" It was "does engineering allow you to fight in mechs?"

Which is like saying "Does Enchantment allow you to deal damage with Frost/Fire/Shadow magic?" The answer is yes, but is it worth mentioning? No.

I know you don't care when it suits your agenda.

Trust me, no one cares. No one cares when other classes "suspend belief" either so I'm wondering why you're concerned about a Tinker class suspending belief.

[Ielenia]

Again they had two holy hymn spells, and the spell you linked to was another holy hymn spell. Why would Blizzard create a new class to house holy hymns when there's already a class that does that very thing?

Who said anything about the bard class has to be filled with holy hymns? That spell, "reverberating hymn", was just an example that spellsong is not uncommon in WoW. We're not saying "look at that spell! That's a bard spell! The bard will have that spell!" No, we're not saying that. We're just saying "see? spellsongs exist in WoW, so a class based on spellsong spellcasting (not holy hymns) is possible".

Plagues were always out of place for Shadow Priests, which is why it was eventually removed. However, a Priest performing Hymns based on holy magic is definitely not out of place.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about the argument of a class having "ownership" of a theme just because they have/had one or two spells of said theme.

So you're saying that you've never used Pistol Shot or Between the Eyes from 20yds? What about Cannonball Barrage from 35 yards? If you're not taking advantage of being able to attack from ranged, you're doing it wrong.

One of your arguments in favor of the tinker class is "can I join a raid as an engineer and do competitive DPS?" Well, now your argument is thrown back at you: can you join a raid as a "ranged rogue" and do competitive DPS?

Which is like saying "Does Enchantment allow you to deal damage with Frost/Fire/Shadow magic?" The answer is yes, but is it worth mentioning? No.

The answer is 'yes', period.

Trust me, no one cares. No one cares when other classes "suspend belief" either so I'm wondering why you're concerned about a Tinker class suspending belief.

Because it's easy to assume that the Hunter stockpiles up his ammo when he gets to town. That mages stockpile their portal stones for their portals. Paladins stock up candles for their blessings, etc. But a tinker stock up massive, hulking, technologically advanced war mechs? That just too much for suspension of disbelief. For any sane person.

[Teriz]

Who said anything about the bard class has to be filled with holy hymns? That spell, "reverberating hymn", was just an example that spellsong is not uncommon in WoW. We're not saying "look at that spell! That's a bard spell! The bard will have that spell!" No, we're not saying that. We're just saying "see? spellsongs exist in WoW, so a class based on spellsong spellcasting (not holy hymns) is possible".

So since we've already established that two of your "Bards" (Brower and the Boss from ToO) are utilizing variations of the Priest's hymn abilities, why not simply establish Holy Priests as a spec based on spell songs?

That's irrelevant. We're talking about the argument of a class having "ownership" of a theme just because they have/had one or two spells of said theme.

Actually it's very relevant. Devouring Plague was a holdover from when Priests had race-specific abilities. It isn't even in the same ballpark as the situation with Holy Priests and Hymns.

One of your arguments in favor of the tinker class is "can I join a raid as an engineer and do competitive DPS?" Well, now your argument is thrown back at you: can you join a raid as a "ranged rogue" and do competitive DPS?

I do believe that my argument in favor of the Tinker class is "can I perform any class roles with the engineering profession?" With Engineering items you can't even solo or quest effectively, much less do competitive DPS in a group environment.

I have solo'd and quested successfully as a ranged Rogue. I've even done a few dungeon runs using only Pistol Shot, the level 15 talent, and Between the Eyes as a finisher. I've never raided on a Rogue, so I don't know if its possible to do competitive DPS at range. :shrug:

The answer is 'yes', period.

Actually its not because it's not worth picking up. Again, by all accounts, Reaves piloted combat module might as well not even exist. After Legion it will be forgotten. Hell, it's already mostly forgotten.

Because it's easy to assume that the Hunter stockpiles up his ammo when he gets to town. That mages stockpile their portal stones for their portals. Paladins stock up candles for their blessings, etc. But a tinker stock up massive, hulking, technologically advanced war mechs? That just too much for suspension of disbelief. For any sane person.

Nah, just for you.

[Flurryfang]

DKs are already quite Necromancer-ish, so i think that theme is already in use.

The tinkers on the other hand are still using a unique theme, espcially since Survival hunters were turned away from the tinkering trade and went into polearming So yeah, tinkers by far is gonna be a more succesfull and fun choice.

[Rhamses]

Considering that Gnomes have portal technology and automation tech, couldn't you just mass produce the mech, and when you blow one up, open a portal and bring in another one?

Doesn't seem that hard when you think about it.

[Ielenia]

So since we've already established that two of your "Bards" (Brower and the Boss from ToO) are utilizing variations of the Priest's hymn abilities, why not simply establish Holy Priests as a spec based on spell songs?

One: who? Two: "variations of spells" is not a good argument to have, considering the majority of the classes here are using "variations of spells" from other classes. And again, we're not saying "hymns are the property of bards".

Actually it's very relevant. Devouring Plague was a holdover from when Priests had race-specific abilities. It isn't even in the same ballpark as the situation with Holy Priests and Hymns.

That's you, again, moving goalposts. You're making up arbitrary rules about what is valid and what is invalid, in the hopes of trying your argument afloat. And if that spell really didn't make sense, why did it stay in the priest's arsenal until Legion? On top of that, it was also an important part of the rotation as well.

I do believe that my argument in favor of the Tinker class is "can I perform any class roles with the engineering profession?" With Engineering items you can't even solo or quest effectively, much less do competitive DPS in a group environment.

I have solo'd and quested successfully as a ranged Rogue. I've even done a few dungeon runs using only Pistol Shot, the level 15 talent, and Between the Eyes as a finisher. I've never raided on a Rogue, so I don't know if its possible to do competitive DPS at range. :shrug:

Call me when you do competitive DPS as a "ranged rogue" and you'll have a point.

Actually its not because it's not worth picking up.

Except that's not the question, is it? The question is "can I?" and not "is it worth it?".

[Teriz]

Considering that Gnomes have portal technology and automation tech, couldn't you just mass produce the mech, and when you blow one up, open a portal and bring in another one?

Doesn't seem that hard when you think about it.

No, it only seems hard when you have an agenda....

[Ielenia]

Considering that Gnomes have portal technology and automation tech, couldn't you just mass produce the mech, and when you blow one up, open a portal and bring in another one?

Doesn't seem that hard when you think about it.

So the tinker is some kind of super-rich character that rivals kings and most (if not all) of the leaders of goblin cartels, to be able to easily mass-produce huge, hulking, technologically advanced war mechs? Not even the kingdom of Stormwind, having several engineers and lots of gold, can even come close to that. They only have one skyship. Well, had, since it got destroyed in Legion.

[Tenant]

Anyone that thinks piddly Engineering, the profession that I frequently forget still exists, somehow sufficiently fills in the "fantasy" that a Tinker could is thick in the head

[Rhamses]

So the tinker is some kind of super-rich character that rivals kings and most (if not all) of the leaders of goblin cartels, to be able to easily mass-produce huge, hulking, technologically advanced war mechs? Not even the kingdom of Stormwind, having several engineers and lots of gold, can even come close to that. They only have one skyship. Well, had, since it got destroyed in Legion.

You could just as easily say that the Tinker is a super-genius who has found a automation method to build the mechs cheaply and efficiently. We see this in our own history when Henry Ford found a cheap way to build the Model T.

Teriz is right, you clearly have an agenda here.

[Darktbs]

So since we've already established that two of your "Bards" (Brower and the Boss from ToO) are utilizing variations of the Priest's hymn abilities, why not simply establish Holy Priests as a spec based on spell songs?

Thats really wierd coming from you
(well not really we're used to your double standards)

Priests are medics, healers and such.They have 1- 2 spells based on songs.

By that logic, Hunters should have a spec based around explosives and techonology since they do have a fair amount of spells focused around that.

[Thimagryn]

DKs are already quite Necromancer-ish, so i think that theme is already in use.

The tinkers on the other hand are still using a unique theme, espcially since Survival hunters were turned away from the tinkering trade and went into polearming So yeah, tinkers by far is gonna be a more succesfull and fun choice.

So a Spec that has a similar theme to a new class could simply turn away from it to create more room for a new class. Sounds feasible for Unholy if they planned on Necromancers. Just focus more on Runeblade strikes and diseases and less on summoning.

Also, 'theme in use' never stopped Priests and Paladins, Mages and Shamans or Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

[Ielenia]

You could just as easily say that the Tinker is a super-genius who has found a automation method to build the mechs cheaply and efficiently.

Yeah, like discarded leaves and twigs, maybe? Seriously, there is no way one could "find a way to easily mass-produce huge, hulking, technologically advanced war mechs" and not be very rich to be able to set it up. Even if one could find a way to do it, setting up such production line would be very, very costly. Not to mention materials to produce the mechs. I doubt a tinker who wants to on the front lines would like to make his mech as durable and sturdy s a linen shirt.

We see this in our own history when Henry Ford found a cheap way to build the Model T.

And he did all that, he set up the entire process with just pocket change? Or did he spent a sizable amount of money to set everything up? Also, even so, was building each Model T cheap? Like, were his cars as cheap as buying a meal in a restaurant? I'm guessing 'no'.

[Teriz]

One: who? Two: "variations of spells" is not a good argument to have, considering the majority of the classes here are using "variations of spells" from other classes. And again, we're not saying "hymns are the property of bards".

1.Russell Brower (Wedding Hymn) and Temple Guardian Anhur (Reverberating Hymn).
2.Fine, then Wedding Hymn is a combination of two Priest Hymns, and Reverberating Hymn is a holy-based Hymn.

That's you, again, moving goalposts. You're making up arbitrary rules about what is valid and what is invalid, in the hopes of trying your argument afloat. And if that spell really didn't make sense, why did it stay in the priest's arsenal until Legion? On top of that, it was also an important part of the rotation as well.

That's a question for Blizzard, but yeah, Devouring Plague never fit the theme of Shadow Priests, which was attacking the mind, and more recently Void abilities.

Call me when you do competitive DPS as a "ranged rogue" and you'll have a point.

I don't raid as a Rogue, so you'll be waiting by the phone for a long time.

Except that's not the question, is it? The question is "can I?" and not "is it worth it?".

You can't in Eastern Kingdoms, Kalmidor, Northrend, Panderia, Outland, Draenor, Vash'jir, Deepholm, Highmountain, Stormheim, Val'sharah, Suramar, Argus, or Azuna.

So what's the point?

- - - Updated - - -

Thats really wierd coming from you
(well not really we're used to your double standards)

Priests are medics, healers and such.They have 1- 2 spells based on songs.

By that logic, Hunters should have a spec based around explosives and techonology since they do have a fair amount of spells focused around that.

If I was advocating for a class that throws fire-based bombs, you'd have a point. The Tinker class is based around mechs, not grenades.

What does it say when the only relevant abilities showcased by a WoW Bard are Priest spells?

[Darktbs]

If I was advocating for a class that throws fire-based bombs, you'd have a point. The Tinker class is based around mechs, not grenades.

What does it say when the only relevant abilities showcased by a WoW Bard are Priest spells?

The fact that there is only two spells that overlap(which is not even a bad thing they can keep their version) is good, because means Blizzard have the ability to create whatever they want.

And again, you said "why not simply establish Holy Priests as a spec based on spell songs?"

And i repeat, if you're going to say that Priest should become a song spec, then i say that Hunters should have a spec based around techonology or explosives.

Since they do have a bigger amount of spells of that category then Priests have from Songs.

[Teriz]

The fact that there is only two spells that overlap(which is not even a bad thing they can keep their version) is good, because means Blizzard have the ability to create whatever they want.

And again, you said "why not simply establish Holy Priests as a spec based on spell songs?"

And i repeat, if you're going to say that Priest should become a song spec, then i say that Hunters should have a spec based around techonology or explosives.

Since they do have a bigger amount of spells of that category then Priests have from Songs.

Well I have good news; All signs are pointing towards Survival being a spec based around explosives in the next expansion.

The point is this; If your basis for the Bard class are hymns, you might as well advocate for a holy Priest spec based around hymns. It simply makes more sense.

[Wildberry]

No, it only seems hard when you have an agenda....

Teriz is right, you clearly have an agenda here.

That's rich coming from you two.