Funding for government lapses as short-term spending bill stalls in the Senate

[Crispin]

nah real translation is 45 of your 49 democrats voted to shut down

and 45 of my 50 republicans voted to keep it going

So thats means that this is about 90% democrats fault that we are in a shutdown because DACA DREAMERS... grats you just cost the US 100x more than the dreamer program.. guess you won we should have just let them stay because your trying to ruin the country till we let your ticket to winning the minority vote stay.

My Democrats? Whats important is why they voted as they did, but I guess that would paint a picture that doesnt computer for you.

[Skroe]

IDK looking at the list its the same club of wannabe republicans

Rand paul
Mcconnel
Linsey graham

all seem to always be on the wrong side of hurting their own party lately so idk... time to vote them and Flake out

The problems not the Graham's or McConnell's of the world. It's Tom Cottons, Mike Lee, Ted Cruz and the like.

If the founders wanted a Parliamentary system where the majority always ruled the day... where one side could push their agenda unhindered, they had amble experience with it and could have given America a parliament. Some Colonial assemblies were unicameral legislatures much in this way, descended from the British Parliament.

But they decided, explicitly not to do that. They bound the Senate in a stunning amount of constraints, many of which have been shed over time.

You call yourself a conservative? Put your money where your mouth is. What is the original intent of the Senate? It is not a place where 50+1 votes wins. It never has been. It is not a place of the strong party. Quite the contrary, the Parties have always been weakest in the Senate (and that is still the case). States, issue issues and individuals, by original intent and by 228 years of execution consistent with that intent, have driven the Senate.

Fact of the matter is, the founders by their own writings were quite clear on their intent on how we should rule: free of the "The Tyranny of the Majority". Hamiliton and Jefferson spent much of their time during the Republic's formative years defining the constraints of the Majority because of it.

In America, the Majority does not and never will rule, on any issue. That's Modern Western Europe. In America, the Majority must operates within sharp constraints, deference and in the spirit of compromise with the minority, or as we have seen, nothing gets done.

This thing where Senators think that because they have 51 votes they have a mandate is a new, a joke, wrong and plainly un-American. It's not that way when Democrats are in that position, and it isn't that way when Republicans are in that position. I'm not sure where people like yourself are coming from, when they think that they are entitled - yes entitled - to getting 100% of their way. You are entitled to exactly 51%.

Republicans are hell bent on repeating the same mistakes of Democrats because Republican leadership, like Democratic leadership, lacks the courage to tell their base how it is (you know, actually lead), rather than be slaves to their impulses.

You can either call yourself a conservative and operate within these constraints, that the founders themselves designed, or you can seek to progressively redesign what the founders intend to something to your liking. But you will not be a conservative anymore.

America got this far and got to be what it is by right and left over two centuries collaborating, compromising and checking each other. Why do modern Americans, in their abject stupidity, thing they're somehow better and different int his regard? Why are they intent in not doing what has simply worked. Frustratingly? For sure. But recognizing that you're entitled to 51% of the loaf, not 100%, is how mature political systems function.

Are we a mature political systems? No. Since 1998, Americans behavior, top to bottom, have given Democracy a bad name. We say the world, but as expressed by your own positions, simply put, we're not very good at it anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

The business show I listen to said the last government shutdown cost over $100 billion dollars and decreased the US GDP for the year by 6/10ths of a percent.

I wish they'd get their shit together and do what we elected them to do.

It sounds like that there was a solid deal in the works, then the president and the Republican backroom scuttled it. Some Republican Senators feel stabbed in the back.

This lies at Trump's feet. No one bears more responsibility than him.

[Regalia]

Are we a mature political systems? No. Since 1998, Americans behavior, top to bottom, have given Democracy a bad name. We say the world, but as expressed by your own positions, simply put, we're not very good at it anymore.

people always forget that Americans are not the best when running a Democracy.

[Cts53]

Fundamentally the Democrats are fighting from a position of weakness (a slim minority). Their best approach remains to simply be silent and stick to their demands. Giving up ground now will lead to Republicans taking more ground in future budget negotiations (and in everything else). If the Democrats can remain a united front (always their biggest problem) the Republicans could never get the 60 votes to stop debate and thus the Republicans would eventually have to give in to Democrat demands, or the government would never be funded and ultimately that would reflect poorly on the majority party (as it did for the Democrats in 2013) since they're seen as the "ones in charge".

Yeah, those are great negotiating tactics. Just not when by doing so you shutdown the government, and possibly place thousands of the men and women (and their families), who sacrifice alot to protect this country, in danger of financial ruin.

If this isn't fixed before the 1st, military no longer gets paid.

[Regalia]

Yeah, those are great negotiating tactics. Just not when by doing so you shutdown the government, and possibly place thousands of the men and women (and their families), who sacrifice alot to protect this country, in danger of financial ruin.

If this isn't fixed before the 1st, military no longer gets paid.

welp Have fun not getting paid.

[Macaquerie]

Yeah, those are great negotiating tactics. Just not when by doing so you shutdown the government, and possibly place thousands of the men and women (and their families), who sacrifice alot to protect this country, in danger of financial ruin.

If this isn't fixed before the 1st, military no longer gets paid.

Then I guess if the Republicans want to show that they really care about the military as much as they say they do, they'll make the concessions needed to come to a deal.

[Cts53]

Then I guess if the Republicans want to show that they really care about the military as much as they say they do, they'll make the concessions needed to come to a deal.

Both sides should make the deal, and both need to make some sort of compromise. This isn't a blame game, both sides screwed the pooch on this one.

The military isn't a one sided thing, it protects everybody in the US no matter their political party

[Macaquerie]

Both sides should make the deal, and both need to make some sort of compromise. This isn't a blame game, both sides screwed the pooch on this one.

The military isn't a one sided thing, it protects everybody in the US no matter their political party

They had a deal on the table, and then Trump torpedoed it with his shithole rant. Oh sure the Republicans might be blasting the Democrats publicly, but privately they are reserving all their real hate for the hardliners in their own party who are always undermining the efforts of the "respectable" wing of the party to get anything done with their insane demands and unwillingness to concede anything.

[Cts53]

They had a deal on the table, and then Trump torpedoed it with his shithole rant. Oh sure the Republicans might be blasting the Democrats publicly, but privately they are reserving all their real hate for the hardliners in their own party who are always undermining the efforts of the "respectable" wing of the party to get anything done with their insane demands and unwillingness to concede anything.

Like I said, I don't try to follow politics to that degree.

But from everything I have heard, it sounds like both sides were unwilling to budge. Also, i honestly don't care who is to blame, I care about who is going to fix it.

Make the deal, approve the budget. That's all I care about.

Otherwise, myself and others in the military will be having to work for zero pay. When that is what you are facing, placing the blame hardly matters in the slightest.

[Better]

They had a deal on the table, and then Trump torpedoed it with his shithole rant. Oh sure the Republicans might be blasting the Democrats publicly, but privately they are reserving all their real hate for the hardliners in their own party who are always undermining the efforts of the "respectable" wing of the party to get anything done with their insane demands and unwillingness to concede anything.

Both sides are pretty hardline about this.

Democrats are trying to use this as a negotiation point. Forcing a deadline onto specific immigration issues when there doesn't need to be one yet.

Republicans had a bill that passed to the Senate, the one in the title of the thread. In this bill they included things other than just an extension of the funding, because they too are using this as a bargaining chip.

Both sides decided to play chicken, and both caused this mess. Now most likely one side will have to give in, and get things running again. I'd love for a Disney ending where both sides realize they're wrong and come together to work it out, but that seems unlikely.

[Skroe]

Like I said, I don't try to follow politics to that degree.

But from everything I have heard, it sounds like both sides were unwilling to budge. Also, i honestly don't care who is to blame, I care about who is going to fix it.

Make the deal, approve the budget. That's all I care about.

Otherwise, myself and others in the military will be having to work for zero pay. When that is what you are facing, placing the blame hardly matters in the slightest.

Immediate Pay aside, the Military isn't remotely serviced by a 1 month or 1 year deal. It needs a 10 year deal with budget top-lines laid out before hand every year through 2029, along with substantial reform to Military Healthcare and Retirements.

The financial situation of US military in 2018 is at worst "sub-optimal". In 2029, it's a complete catastrophe.

Wave the smallest American flag you can find when Congress shits out a short term deal in the next few days. When they pass a 10 defense budget roadmap, that's when you get fire works out and say "we're doing the governance thing properly again".

[WillBowman]

Both sides are pretty hardline about this.

Democrats are trying to use this as a negotiation point. Forcing a deadline onto specific immigration issues when there doesn't need to be one yet.

Because Trump the savior won't give in.

Republicans had a bill that passed to the Senate, the one in the title of the thread. In this bill they included things other than just an extension of the funding, because they too are using this as a bargaining chip.

Because trump said poopy words

Both sides decided to play chicken, and both caused this mess. Now most likely one side will have to give in, and get things running again. I'd love for a Disney ending where both sides realize they're wrong and come together to work it out, but that seems unlikely.

trump wants that wall.

[Cts53]

Immediate Pay aside, the Military isn't remotely serviced by a 1 month or 1 year deal. It needs a 10 year deal with budget top-lines laid out before hand every year through 2029, along with substantial reform to Military Healthcare and Retirements.

The financial situation of US military in 2018 is at worst "sub-optimal". In 2029, it's a complete catastrophe.

Wave the smallest American flag you can find when Congress shits out a short term deal in the next few days. When they pass a 10 defense budget roadmap, that's when you get fire works out and say "we're doing the governance thing properly again".

I understand that, but my immediate concern is getting paid to provide for my family.

I wont be in the military in 2029, but I am in right now, and making sure that I can continue to support my family is my biggest concern.

I'm sure you can understand that.

[WillBowman]

I understand that, but my immediate concern is getting paid to provide for my family.

I wont be in the military in 2029, but I am in right now, and making sure that I can continue to support my family is my biggest concern.

I'm sure you can understand that.

So, Give Trump the Wall?

[Macaquerie]

Like I said, I don't try to follow politics to that degree.

But from everything I have heard, it sounds like both sides were unwilling to budge. Also, i honestly don't care who is to blame, I care about who is going to fix it.

Make the deal, approve the budget. That's all I care about.

Otherwise, myself and others in the military will be having to work for zero pay. When that is what you are facing, placing the blame hardly matters in the slightest.

You might not care about playing the blame game, but for better or worse it does factor into the internal logic of these politicians, since they are always having to weigh the electoral consequences of holding the line or cutting a deal, and so you have to factor that in to understand why there's a deadlock.

And yeah, I get that the shutdown is going to cause a lot of pain for a lot of folks in the short term, but quite frankly, this is the only way the big questions of our day will ever be resolved. If you look at our history, compromises rarely do much but kick the can down the road for future generations to worry about. The serious issues have only ever been dealt with when both sides take up a position and refuse to budge, and let the tides of history decide who's in the right.

[Skroe]

I understand that, but my immediate concern is getting paid to provide for my family.

I wont be in the military in 2029, but I am in right now, and making sure that I can continue to support my family is my biggest concern.

I'm sure you can understand that.

Of course. But equally it is the job of our elected officials to think beyond the immediate term. And they have been talking-about-talking about exactly what I said here - a 10 year road map - since 2010. We wouldn't even be here if

(1) Barack Obama actually honored Robert Gates' work on the plan from 2011.
(2) Congress passed it in 2011 or 2012 instead of the Budget Control Act
(3) Congress passed it some time in the last 8 years, considering the plan was and remains very popular with them.

We wouldn't' be here because it would be locked in. But here we are.

Or to put it bluntly, so-called Conservatives will keep using your pay as weapon in annual budget fights, because they won't compromise for a 10 year plan. Which means even though you'll be out before 2029, don't be surprised when you don't get paid again.

[LaserSharkDFB]

Absolutely nobody should be surprised that this happened because it fits Trump to a big, golden T. Remember, he is a shitty, shitty businessman with a very long and well-documented history of not paying contractors or banks then forcing them to settle out of court for a much lower amount than he owed them. He's done that so often that banks won't loan him money anymore, which is why he had to turn to money laundering. But that's another thread.

Point is, this is his MO and he figured it would work with running a government, too. Shut everything down and make those dirty Dems beg to have it turned back on. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, and the GOP are the ones who have always suffered the most during a shutdown; the polls show that very few people outside of Trump's hardcore base think that the Dems are to blame for this one. He's going to have to come to the table hat in hand if he wants to salvage the situation.

I don't see it lasting for very long, honestly. Trumpie-poo can't go to his 284th taxpayer-funded vacation while the shutdown's happening; he'll either cave or have a stroke within a week or two.

[alexw]

It sounds like that there was a solid deal in the works, then the president and the Republican backroom scuttled it. Some Republican Senators feel stabbed in the back.

This lies at Trump's feet. No one bears more responsibility than him.

That is exactly what happened.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...amer-deal.html

Donald Trump has repeatedly suggested that he believes undocumented immigrants who were brought to this country as children — and who went on to obey all (non-immigration) laws, and graduate from college or secure gainful employment — should be allowed to stay in the United States. On the day the president ended Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), which had provided such immigrants with work permits and protection from deportation, he called on Congress to pass a legislative replacement for the Executive branch program. The president went on to say that if Congress failed to protect the program’s former beneficiaries, he would “revisit the issue,” and, ostensibly, protect them himself.

But that shouldn’t be necessary. Last week, a bipartisan group of senators announced that they’d reached consensus on a DACA replacement bill: Even though the president and GOP leadership had claimed to support legal status for Dreamers as an end in itself (and thus should have been prepared to support legislation that does nothing but that), Democrats nonetheless agreed to back a DREAM Act that included funding for Trump’s border wall, limits on the ability of legal U.S. residents to sponsor their adult children for immigration, and a reduction in diversity visas — provisions championed by Republicans and loathed by the progressive base.

And Trump took their offer as an insult.

Later, White House chief of staff John Kelly informed the senators that the administration did not merely want a Dreamer bill that could pass Congress with bipartisan support but one that could earn the approval of “conservatives like Sens. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) and David Perdue (R-Ga.) and Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.).”

Tom Cotton doesn’t like the term “Dreamers” — he prefers “illegal aliens.” The senator is the lead sponsor on a bill to cut legal immigration in half. Demanding a bipartisan immigration bill that Cotton can support is like demanding a bipartisan agreement to cut Social Security that Bernie Sanders will gladly co-sponsor. If Barack Obama had made the latter request during “Grand Bargain” negotiations in 2011, everyone involved would have understood that he did not actually want to pass a Grand Bargain.

But Trump’s grasp of political reality is so loose, it’s genuinely unclear if he understands that he is asking for the impossible. And an internal White House memo, leaked to Axios on Friday, suggests that the president likely doesn’t comprehend the absurdity of his position — and that his closest advisers on immigration want to keep it that way.

Shortly after Trump’s meeting with the senators behind the bipartisan DACA bill, staffers from the Justice Department and DHS prepared an internal memo assessing the merits of the legislation. In a document titled, “Flake-Graham-Durbin Proposal Would Cripple Border Security and Expand Chain Migration,” the staffers lamented that the bill:

1.Fails to Secure the Border: “provides less than 10 percent of the necessary funds to construct the border wall.”


2. Increases Illegal Immigration and Guarantees Future Amnesties: “provides immigration benefits to certain illegal aliens who came to the United States as juveniles.”


3. Proposal Not Only Grants Citizenship To Up to 3 Million “DREAMers,” But Also Grants Legal Status to Their Parents: “grants a path to citizenship to an illegal population that is nearly five times larger than the population of DACA recipients.”


4. Increases Chain Migration: “keeps chain migration in place while increasing the number of individuals eligible to bring in their foreign relatives through chain migration.”


5. Fails To End the Visa Lottery.

It’s worth remembering that Trump wasn’t inclined to cancel DACA in the first place. It took a lawsuit from several Republican state Attorneys General — and an ultimatum from Attorney General Jeff Sessions — to get the president to cut the Dreamers loose. Even then, Trump had Sessions announce the termination of the program for him, and expressed openness to reviving DACA over Twitter on the very same day.

In September, a single conversation with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi convinced Trump to back a DACA bill that included no funding for his wall whatsoever. Less than two weeks ago, Trump told a bipartisan group of lawmakers that he would sign any DREAM Act that made it to his desk — and, momentarily, signed on to Senator Dianne Feinstein’s proposal for a “clean” version of the bill that wouldn’t include any border security measures at all.

After all of these incidents, immigration hard-liners in Congress — and far-right White House adviser Stephen Miller — guided Trump back toward recalcitrance. Miller has long been the most conspicuous obstacle to a deal. The Sessions acolyte and Breitbart darling has no interest in seeing Dreamers gain legal status. And as the administration’s resident immigration policy wonk, he has repeatedly sent Congress the same long list of impossible demands, including proposals that lack the support of a majority of congressional Republicans, like a halving of legal immigration and $18 billion for a border wall.

The key revelation of the memo obtained by Axios is that Miller is not alone: Apparently, several of the administration’s top immigration policy hands are also committed to sabotaging a Dreamer deal — or, at the very least, to jeopardizing such a deal by pressing maximalist demands.

This explains the incoherence of the White House’s position. Trump is personally inclined, at least some of the time, to notch a bipartisan victory, claim credit for achieving something that Obama failed to do, and celebrate his success in convincing Congress to make a down payment on his wall. But he is also highly impressionable and deeply racist, and surrounded by far-right ideologues who are eager to exploit both those traits to their own ends.

At this point, the most viable path to a DREAM Act may be for Congress to simply ignore the White House, pass something roughly similar to the existing bipartisan proposal, and trust that, once the bill is in front of him, Trump will find the lure of a signing ceremony more compelling than the complaints of the West Wing’s conniving nativists.

[Cts53]

Of course. But equally it is the job of our elected officials to think beyond the immediate term. And they have been talking-about-talking about exactly what I said here - a 10 year road map - since 2010. We wouldn't even be here if

(1) Barack Obama actually honored Robert Gates' work on the plan from 2011.
(2) Congress passed it in 2011 or 2012 instead of the Budget Control Act
(3) Congress passed it some time in the last 8 years, considering the plan was and remains very popular with them.

We wouldn't' be here because it would be locked in. But here we are.

Or to put it bluntly, so-called Conservatives will keep using your pay as weapon in annual budget fights, because they won't compromise for a 10 year plan. Which means even though you'll be out before 2029, don't be surprised when you don't get paid again.

Your lack of concern is astounding.

I understand that the shutdown hardly affects a grand majority of the population of the US. Many probably don't understand what the big deal is. Mail still works, social security and medicare still work.

But for us military it is an entirely different conversation. We don't get paid all that much as it is. The rate that I get paid for the job I do is pennys at best. But I am here, stuck for another 5 years, so I have no choice but to work, whether I get paid or not. But due to military life, the constant moving, deployments, ect, there are more families who live paycheck to paycheck than who live comfortably with their military paychecks.

A lose in pay, for any of us, has the ability to almost certainly put us close to financial ruin, and yet we are still have to work.

[alexw]

Both sides should make the deal, and both need to make some sort of compromise. This isn't a blame game, both sides screwed the pooch on this one.

The military isn't a one sided thing, it protects everybody in the US no matter their political party

They already did. Trump then torpedoed the deal. Hard to make a deal if the president is just going to blow out of the water any agreement they reach, because well, that's just how Trump is.