8.0 Warlock changes from Beta

[Biomega]

Me too, this is going to just result in sitting on shards waiting for procs and doing massive burst by re-dotting 4xUA>DB, build shards back during DB cd and rinse repeat.

That's how destruction should be playing, not affliction, especially going by what they said in their watercooler.

So what that affliction has never been good at priority adds or short term burst, it has still remained one of the top tier raiding builds for every expansion regardless as it strengths lie elsewhere.

Anyone who has half a brain can see how much this talent will be broken scaling wise for affliction as the more gear you will get.

Especially since DB doesn't exactly solve a short-lived add burst problem IF YOU HAVE TO DUMP A TON OF DOTS ON THE TARGET FIRST.

[Khrux]

Me too, this is going to just result in sitting on shards waiting for procs and doing massive burst by re-dotting 4xUA>DB, build shards back during DB cd and rinse repeat.

This is the problem I have with talents like this, I get that talents should and do offer options to speed up or slow down rotations, add or remove gcds or change the flavor of how you deal damage.... but some talents they add are just instantly BiS and force everyone into a very specific playstyle like the one you mention.

These are the kind of talents that then decide your remaining talents for you, removing not just the choice in your first tier but potentially locking in all other tiers as a result. Shit like jagged wounds for druid is an example of a talent that changes pace, gcd usage and not only dominates its own talent tier but decides your remaining tiers for you also.

[Deleted]

I worry for talents like Overloaded. Insta SF sounds nice, but 100% Felguard damage + extra attacks does look like more dps, without doing anything either.

[Duckz0rs]

I worry for talents like Overloaded. Insta SF sounds nice, but 100% Felguard damage + extra attacks does look like more dps, without doing anything either.

Don't worry too much about numbers at the moment, stuff is highly subject to change. I mean, there's a talent that reduces the cd on the felguard aoe by 5000%.

[kaid]

my guess would be: they want demos to keep using their iconic Felguard, if Doomguard/infernal were an option, then people would either complain about not being able to use their Felguard or about them being undertuned.

This is pretty much my guess as well. Having infernal/doomguard makes it feel almost mandatory to take the spec for them to be your constant pet which eliminates your CD burst pet. With the demonic commander now in the role of cool down burst damage pet it sort of makes sense to remove the others. That said what we are seeing is really rough early look so do not expect what is on release to look like what we are seeing now.

[Lucrece]

Especially since DB doesn't exactly solve a short-lived add burst problem IF YOU HAVE TO DUMP A TON OF DOTS ON THE TARGET FIRST.

Not really. Just with agony and corruption alone you can land a 5-6k nuke which is on the scale of a chaosbolt if you need snap burst on an add. The extended setup assumes you want to maximize the damage on the spell, but min-maxing damage on a spell is secondary to completing a mechanic.

I think DB is great for affliction. It used to be a padding spec, but now it can do meaningful damage if talented for it albeit less frequently and strongly compared to destro, which is fine because in turn it should sustain better ST and cleave DPS in exchange for less frequent access to burst and 2-target burst.

[Deleted]

Don't worry too much about numbers at the moment, stuff is highly subject to change. I mean, there's a talent that reduces the cd on the felguard aoe by 5000%.

True, but if we go further:

If Demonic Strength is the best for T60, it might force Demonic Strength for T15, being another felguard buff. I doubt these both buff the Service Felguard but if it does, then it might be mandatory too. If it doesn't, Synergy might be optimal.

Nether Portal could be iffy as we would like as much shards as quickly as possible. Combining it with T30 Power Syphon for lots of MC stacks, looks like a good bet for now. We could run into a SF+SF+HoG+PS rotation, or SF+SF+HoG+SF+SF+HoG+PS, possibly with Demonic Consumption (we are going to sacrifice imps anyway).

We do seem to come back to imps allot with all the talents. SB->HoG->Imps->Molten Core->SF->HoG->More Imps... sure we weave dogs in between but it seems to result allot into imps.

[Duckz0rs]

True, but if we go further:

If Demonic Strength is the best for T60, it might force Demonic Strength for T15, being another felguard buff. I doubt these both buff the Service Felguard but if it does, then it might be mandatory too. If it doesn't, Synergy might be optimal.

Nether Portal could be iffy as we would like as much shards as quickly as possible. Combining it with T30 Power Syphon for lots of MC stacks, looks like a good bet for now. We could run into a SF+SF+HoG+PS rotation, or SF+SF+HoG+SF+SF+HoG+PS, possibly with Demonic Consumption (we are going to sacrifice imps anyway).

We do seem to come back to imps allot with all the talents. SB->HoG->Imps->Molten Core->SF->HoG->More Imps... sure we weave dogs in between but it seems to result allot into imps.

Tuning-wise I hope a lot of these choices will largely come down to situational choices. Felguard buffs for sustain where it has Doom for example as something to be balanced against. In the end I'm not going to assume this is going to be perfectly balanced and be 100% up to choice, but if things end up close I'll be happy.

The imps don't really trouble me too much. I'm by no means a fan of the imp mother spec of Legion, but this feels... different. It reminds me a lot more of MoP/WoD wild imps. They still spawn from our biggest spenders, but they also spawn as side-effects a lot now while also functioning as a resource generator (MC procs).

I think we're still in for quite some changes in the rotation, the amount of imps you can get out with certain builds is pretty retarded (in a good way). HoG + PS generates twice the amount of imps as you sacrifice at the moment and can be done infinitely as PS has no cd and SF generates 2 shards. You can use an imps-as resource-build. HoG > PS > SF > SF > HoG > SF > SF > HoG > IS already nets you 13 imps, after which you can keep sacrificing 4 imps and get 8 in return. Add SC to that and.. yeah... pretty bonkers amount of imps.

[Deleted]

Tuning-wise I hope a lot of these choices will largely come down to situational choices. Felguard buffs for sustain where it has Doom for example as something to be balanced against. In the end I'm not going to assume this is going to be perfectly balanced and be 100% up to choice, but if things end up close I'll be happy.

The imps don't really trouble me too much. I'm by no means a fan of the imp mother spec of Legion, but this feels... different. It reminds me a lot more of MoP/WoD wild imps. They still spawn from our biggest spenders, but they also spawn as side-effects a lot now while also functioning as a resource generator (MC procs).

I think we're still in for quite some changes in the rotation, the amount of imps you can get out with certain builds is pretty retarded (in a good way). HoG + PS generates twice the amount of imps as you sacrifice at the moment and can be done infinitely as PS has no cd and SF generates 2 shards. You can use an imps-as resource-build. HoG > PS > SF > SF > HoG > SF > SF > HoG > IS already nets you 13 imps, after which you can keep sacrificing 4 imps and get 8 in return. Add SC to that and.. yeah... pretty bonkers amount of imps.

Impressive!

[garonne]

Liking the direction so far with demo with the current talent set ups. i dont have alpha, so this is all based on speculation and videos of ppl showing how things are working.

everything so far is good for single target. (not numbers, but playstyle). i've found 4 playstyles with what we have so far.

1.) A Caster and his Pet.
1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1. this build is centered around synergy. with synergy, the caster buffs the pet and the pet buffs the caster. then with the 2 talents of demonic strength that further buffs the main pet. Also with inner demons and riders, the imps aren't as bursty but they provide a steady flow, so when they do die, the caster has a higher chance at procs of molten core for more damage.

2.) I'm gonna burn you sucka
2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3. This build is centered around mobility with molten core and overload. Demonic Calling to reduce the amount of shards spent on dogs to funnel towards imps, to sacrifice them for more molten core and synergy buffing caster with the added effect of spending as much soul stones during portal.

3.) Hungry Hungry Demon(hippo) (dont now how it works yet)
2, 1, 1,(1 or 2), 1, 2, 2. This build just focuses on getting out as much imps before using consumption to buff the commander. the talent doesnt work right now so dont know how plausible this build is right now. Demonic Calling to spend less shards on dogs to funnel to imps, riders to get more imps, overload for instants or Demonic strength, consumption and soul conduit for more imps for consumption.

4.) Demon Summoning Orchestra
2, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 2. This is solely about summoning as many demons as possible to bombard the enemy. Demonic Calling for use to summon more demons, summon vilefiend bc its cooler than 1 more imp with rider, bilescourge to bomb the bomb the place, service for the added demon pet and soul conduit for more shards for more pets. Pop the commander and watch all the demons perform while you laugh maniacally at the boss as his dies by a thousand cuts.

its alpha and the spells will probably be changed over the course of the next months so just take this post as it is, something fun to do.

[Deleted]

Blizz also needs to add SF to DC T15 talent, if we go Power Siphon, we might not be casting allot or any SB at that point.

[Maleific]

1.) A Caster and his Pet.
1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1. this build is centered around synergy. with synergy, the caster buffs the pet and the pet buffs the caster. then with the 2 talents of demonic strength that further buffs the main pet. Also with inner demons and riders, the imps aren't as bursty but they provide a steady flow, so when they do die, the caster has a higher chance at procs of molten core for more damage.

Honestly, this is what demonology should be about at its core, and I hope the new mastery they give us accomodates this in some way. The warlock using their tools (demons) to empower themselves, and vice-versa. Either through resource generation or buffs/ procs like Demonic Synergy.

But all in all, despite lacking multidot/ baseline AoE I think the spec is headed in a good direction where summoner lovers can have their cake and eat it too, as can I. Quite pleased with the direction they've gone thus far, we'll see how things shape up/ get tuned.

Also, altho I don't mind the idea of the Demon Commander, i'd like some way to opt out of him for some kind of personal cooldown. The Shadowbolt volley looks good and all, and they'll probably fix his tendency to pull everything within 40 yards of him though. But I would like some kind of cooldown buff as an alternative.

2.) I'm gonna burn you sucka
2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3. This build is centered around mobility with molten core and overload. Demonic Calling to reduce the amount of shards spent on dogs to funnel towards imps, to sacrifice them for more molten core and synergy buffing caster with the added effect of spending as much soul stones during portal.

3.) Hungry Hungry Demon(hippo) (dont now how it works yet)
2, 1, 1,(1 or 2), 1, 2, 2. This build just focuses on getting out as much imps before using consumption to buff the commander. the talent doesnt work right now so dont know how plausible this build is right now. Demonic Calling to spend less shards on dogs to funnel to imps, riders to get more imps, overload for instants or Demonic strength, consumption and soul conduit for more imps for consumption.

Also another thing I like, shifting damage away from imps and into other sources. Sounds like it might be a way to add more depth to the spec and give some control to shard generation/ mobility.

Still very early Alpha, i'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[Deleted]

Honestly, this is what demonology should be about at its core, and I hope the new mastery they give us accomodates this in some way. The warlock using their tools (demons) to empower themselves, and vice-versa. Either through resource generation or buffs/ procs like Demonic Synergy.

But all in all, despite lacking multidot/ baseline AoE I think the spec is headed in a good direction where summoner lovers can have their cake and eat it too, as can I. Quite pleased with the direction they've gone thus far, we'll see how things shape up/ get tuned.

Also, altho I don't mind the idea of the Demon Commander, i'd like some way to opt out of him for some kind of personal cooldown. The Shadowbolt volley looks good and all, and they'll probably fix his tendency to pull everything within 40 yards of him though. But I would like some kind of cooldown buff as an alternative.




Also another thing I like, shifting damage away from imps and into other sources. Sounds like it might be a way to add more depth to the spec and give some control to shard generation/ mobility.

Still very early Alpha, i'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

aye, its early alpha but it does seem like they want to give demo a lot of different options to do the same things which is nice but that can easily change.

- - - Updated - - -

Tuning-wise I hope a lot of these choices will largely come down to situational choices. Felguard buffs for sustain where it has Doom for example as something to be balanced against. In the end I'm not going to assume this is going to be perfectly balanced and be 100% up to choice, but if things end up close I'll be happy.

The imps don't really trouble me too much. I'm by no means a fan of the imp mother spec of Legion, but this feels... different. It reminds me a lot more of MoP/WoD wild imps. They still spawn from our biggest spenders, but they also spawn as side-effects a lot now while also functioning as a resource generator (MC procs).

I think we're still in for quite some changes in the rotation, the amount of imps you can get out with certain builds is pretty retarded (in a good way). HoG + PS generates twice the amount of imps as you sacrifice at the moment and can be done infinitely as PS has no cd and SF generates 2 shards. You can use an imps-as resource-build. HoG > PS > SF > SF > HoG > SF > SF > HoG > IS already nets you 13 imps, after which you can keep sacrificing 4 imps and get 8 in return. Add SC to that and.. yeah... pretty bonkers amount of imps.

you're also forgetting nether portal, based on the description of it, "Every time you spend Soul Shards, you will also command demons from the Nether to come out and fight for you." and with a power siphon+overloaded build, you'll be spend a lot of shards very fast(around every 4 secs you'll be spending shard, around half that when you cast call dreadstalkers) so the potential of demonic consumption also increases assuming that it summons imps. sadly we dont know which demons are summoned and how many demons are summoned from each use of shards, so it is a bit difficult to assess how strong nether portal will be, but it does have some potential atleast.

[Maleific]

Just wondering, would it be a good idea to split the alpha/ beta stuff into different threads for each spec?

[Deleted]

Just wondering, would it be a good idea to split the alpha/ beta stuff into different threads for each spec?

I second this, as much as i am pleased that the demo changes are rolling out, im more interested in playing destro next expac, so not having to wade through other specs based posts to geto/chat about those interests would be nice.

Thanx in advance Woz

[Duckz0rs]

sadly we dont know which demons are summoned and how many demons are summoned from each use of shards, so it is a bit difficult to assess how strong nether portal will be, but it does have some potential atleast.

Yeah, that's why I opted to factor in SC instead. We know how it works and what it does. Didn't really find a point in factoring in a spell of which we only have a rough description as it was a pretty specific example.

[Little-Fascist]

Still waiting for a talent option for Aff so I don't have to be worse version of mage, AGAIN.

[Verazh]

Still waiting for a talent option for Aff so I don't have to be worse version of mage, AGAIN.

What are you even talking about? Aff plays NOTHINg like any of the mage specs and it has a minion. Are you trolling?

[Deleted]

What are you even talking about? Aff plays NOTHINg like any of the mage specs and it has a minion. Are you trolling?

in bfa it plays like a shitty mage

[Gaidax]

What Demo Soul Fire is? Any description? Is it auto-crit, what is the coefficient, what is the relation to Soul Fire talent for Destruction (placeholder maybe)?