Battle for Azeroth - Discussion/Changes ALPHA

[Deleted]

Yes, i am aware of it =), i only pvp on my DH. But what i was saying IF that talents just adds a flat 10% leech to us, it would be amazing for pvp and extra 10% while in meta, so we will be @ 40% leech while in demon form, which is not all that bad

No, you're not getting it, we already get 40% leech in pvp with that talent right now and it is absolutely worthless. Having a 10% out of demon form will make absolutely no difference at all, this is pvp where we have to comply with pvp templates, you do absolutely no where near the damage you do in pvp compared to pve and instanced pvp.

To give you an idea, your health pool is just shy of 6m, in general pve my dps is anywhere from 1m to 2m, i heal for 100% of that with leech, its ridiculously good healing which takes me to full and basically feel immortal.

In pvp my dps is drastically reduced where i do no where near that kind of dps (i would have to go ingame and check accurate numbers but i am sure we are closer to 200- 250k in pvp) and i only heal for 40% of that IF i take soul rending, i am still trying to heal a near 6m health pool. You don't have relics, you don't have set bonuses, you don't have enchants or gems,you don't have trinket procs etc etc. You just do basic damage.

Leech healing is non existant in pvp in legion and even if they removed the 0.x multiplier our leech gives us in bfa it will still make no difference to our health bars.

[Zasriel]

WHAT?!=!!&"%&#"

Chaos Nova is not a stun anymore? Are you freeking serious?

They removed ALL classes AoE stuns, AFAIK.

[Snegovik]

No, you're not getting it, we already get 40% leech in pvp with that talent right now and it is absolutely worthless. Having a 10% out of demon form will make absolutely no difference at all, this is pvp where we have to comply with pvp templates, you do absolutely no where near the damage you do in pvp compared to pve and instanced pvp.

To give you an idea, your health pool is just shy of 6m, in general pve my dps is anywhere from 1m to 2m, i heal for 100% of that with leech, its ridiculously good healing which takes me to full and basically feel immortal.

In pvp my dps is drastically reduced where i do no where near that kind of dps (i would have to go ingame and check accurate numbers but i am sure we are closer to 200- 250k in pvp) and i only heal for 40% of that IF i take soul rending, i am still trying to heal a near 6m health pool. You don't have relics, you don't have set bonuses, you don't have enchants or gems,you don't have trinket procs etc etc. You just do basic damage.

Leech healing is non existant in pvp in legion and even if they removed the 0.x multiplier our leech gives us in bfa it will still make no difference to our health bars.

I know what you mean about current leech, but 10% leech is a lot, esp in long 2s games, or when u are 1v1 tank, heck even in 3s it makes a difference, not a big one, but worth considering, as a DH, there were plenty times in 2s mostly, when i kited with 1% hp for 15 or so sec while my healer set in a cc, and lived to win the game. 10% wont make a HUGE difference, but to me personally, it will allow DH to stick to KT more often rather than pull back. When i was referring, to pvp, i only mean instanced pvp, not wpvp. U are not suppose to be able to heal to full with that talent, but it will allow u more aggressive play style, if u stick to target, u heal of ur dps, oppose to hit and run strat. Also it will make a difference if u ever 1v1 vs a class who can kite/heal like Enh/WW for example. But once again its all about preference, some ppl will take netherwalk for pvp, i personally will at least swap to 10% flat leech (if its indeeded 10% flat) time to time

[dcc626]

They removed ALL classes AoE stuns, AFAIK.

monks keep theirs. and it goes from being a talent to being baseline.

[Kezuma]

monks keep theirs. and it goes from being a talent to being baseline.

Both Ring Of Peace and Leg sweep are baseline... What a fking joke, and will get 2 new talents lol

[Deleted]

Both Ring Of Peace and Leg sweep are baseline... What a fking joke, and will get 2 new talents lol

Plus they have heal reduce. So again for me we are atm the bad mix from warri and monk

[Deleted]

They removed ALL classes AoE stuns, AFAIK.

I made some research and we still have a stun on the talents. Its 4 seconds now.

But now we have to chose between a slow in our throw glaive or a stun....blizz plz. Such a hard choice man...

[Lucrece]

They removed ALL classes AoE stuns, AFAIK.

No they did not. Ele shaman, warriors keep their aoe stuns. So does monk.

[Resentless]

I made some research and we still have a stun on the talents. Its 4 seconds now.

But now we have to chose between a slow in our throw glaive or a stun....blizz plz. Such a hard choice man...

They need to make throw glaive a 25% slow baseline with master of the glaive going to 60% with more targets hit or something, cause its actually unplayable as a melee to not have a slow when you have to play vs russians and anyone far away with a ping higher than 70 from you.

[Deleted]

They need to make throw glaive a 25% slow baseline with master of the glaive going to 60% with more targets hit or something, cause its actually unplayable as a melee to not have a slow when you have to play vs russians and anyone far away with a ping higher than 70 from you.

Yes, Blizzard is basically saying.

"You will either be a stunless class or a slowless class...pick and chose"

Blizzard, comon...

[Ielenia]

Dont you guys think 6 procs per minute is kinda low?

For our current demonic build, yes, it's a very low proc rate. However, we need to see how it works out with the new builds at max level in BfA. Judging it with the current live builds isn't too productive, in my opinion.

[Resentless]

I have massive concerns about pvp for bfa.

Havoc has practically no self healing in pvp which is fine when no other dps can heal but that is not the case, leech doesnt work and orbs are completely uncontrollable. Soul rend is even nerfed in bfa so even if it gave 100% of its value in pvp nothing changes.

Chaos nova becoming a disoriant makes it completely worthless, an aoe gouge on a meele class whos both movement skills deal damage? I know nova stun was strong but in hindsight of rated pvp and the reason aoe stuns are only going to a couple classes i am at a loss to why we lose ours. As a aoe gouge i would actually rather it just became an aoe dmg ability than cc which is pretty strange from a pvper.
Yes havoc is fantastic pressure on people and does fantastic damage but thats it, havoc is not a desired spec in rbgs at all only venge tanks. Nova remaining a stun in bfa might actually make us a desired spec in bfa.

No bloodlet???? Seriously???? It better be baked in to throw glaive because bloodlet is one of our best damage sources.

I was delighted to see immo aura coming and even more so that it generated fury but i really cannot understand why it was not baseline.

Im unsure on venge atm, i like fracture changes and any change that changes the current meta no pun of venge tanks being mandatory in pvp is fine by me, sometimes i just want to dps but nope, not allowed, only tank. Plus most people don't even understand why venge is popular tank and just assume a dh tank has the same survivability as other tanks ontop of our mobility.


For pve i actually liked demonic build but they just had to go and break it.

The only benefit of chaos nova being an aoe disorient right now is that now we have all 3 CC DR's if you take fel eruption, plus a ranged kick (and hopefully a baseline slow on throw glaive even if its small). Imprison->Chaos Nova-> Fel Eruption-> consume magic ->blood elf silence (if youre one of those). Gives us an impressive cc chain but yeah, in general it sucks that its a disorient as we will just break it with fel rush/barrage or anything else we use since every ability but chaos strike is multi target XD

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, Blizzard is basically saying.

"You will either be a stunless class or a slowless class...pick and chose"

Blizzard, comon...

yeah its kinda ridiculous. If we dont have a baseline slow we are dead in 2v2 and will need to play with a dk or mage in 3v3 to even be viable. Also we're already dead in RBG's as havoc and this doesnt help at all.

- - - Updated - - -

I love the changes a lot.
I love the Aura and that they remove bloodlet, it never fit with the class i think the Aura instead fits in my class fantasy perfectly.

Only 2 talents make me a bit sad the lvl 99 and the 108. Why?

lvl 99 because i wish so much that we get Felblade as a class ability without talent. This choices are a real hard decision for me. Felblade is a amazing gap closer and a ability that fits perfect to Dh dd and tank spec for me. But Demonic Apetite (and this talent needs the cd reduction from the weapon) and Blindfury are both amazing talents for my playstyle. Because i love Demonic with a lot of heal.

lvl 108 because Master of glaive gets nerfed the ability to slow 2 targets was amazing in arena. Also that Chaos Nova gets nerfed and the talent is still realy weak i think. Fel eruption sounds good.

Maybe ( i know the chance is 0) if fel rush realy has only 1 sec cd and no charges we dont need a slow. For me it sounds perfect but i think a lot of other classes would cry. We are the fastest class but with this changes we could be faster than rogues and monks and everything else in the wow universe.

I also hope the souls heal for 25% in arena. We need a ability to heal us up out of meta in arena if the lame builds(with Dots from bloodlet and hold enemys on distance till the heal debuff plays for us) isnt a option in BfA.

Fel rush will 100% have a cooldown, no doubt. I think, as ive said 4-5 times already in this thread, that we need a baseline throw glaive slow, and then make master of the glaive a stronger slow+more targets hit (maybe infinite but not more than any target 1 time) and change the chaos nova talent to "chaos nova now stuns" and make those 2 compete with fel eruption. Then theres actually some choice. Do you want to slow the entire enemy team in rbg... or stun multiple people but it can be dispelled... or would you rather have single target stun+aoe blind into imprison for big cc. I mean, as it stands fel eruption will be my 100% go to regardless, but at least this way the other talents will compete.

Actually, I've decided we should just have 2 charges on throw glaive baseline. We have 2 glaives... 2 charges of throw glaive come on.

[Deleted]

Gluttony not being baseline anymore is really going to detract from the feel of Vengeance. Shifting in and out of demon form was so good for class fantasy.

[Tech614]

Gluttony not being baseline anymore is really going to detract from the feel of Vengeance. Shifting in and out of demon form was so good for class fantasy.

The random meta procs did almost nothing for the class, and that talent will be worthless unless it's greatly improved from the trait.

[diggorey]

The random meta procs did almost nothing for the class, and that talent will be worthless unless it's greatly improved from the trait.

Well, I think in terms of class fantasy it was fitting, the whole idea of the inner demon breaking out/being hard to control. At least Blizz tried to make it seem like we were struggling with all the fel inside aka going full hulk mode every now and then. I agree in terms of gameplay though. RNG survival procs are never a good idea for tanks, we like to control where and when we're getting hurt - not to mention, the alternatives on that row are waaaaaay better.

[tristannarutofan]

I saw that and checked, and it seems to be the same weapon requirements that are on most of our abilities.

I recall seeing this during the Legion Beta as well. I think it was pondered that we might have had a two handed Staff/Polearm option in early (Pre Legion Alpha) development, with the Scythe of Souls (carried by our Champion, Allari) as a likely Artifact weapon, either for an early version of Vengeance, or a scrapped third spec. That's all guesswork though, so /shrug/. I wouldn't mind seeing the option open up now that we are no longer bound by Artifact weapon limitations, but I'm also not really expecting it.

i could be wrong but i think the reason is all dual weapons are technically 2 handed weapons. yes on your character it shows a second weapon, but someone recently tried to link me the doomhammer offhand and it just showed the doomhammer. this makes me think its just a UI thing and the reason they are 1 item in your bag is because they ARE 1 item

(basically its what i think they should do with pistols, with them being 1 item, a pair of pistols and when you equip em instead of a rifle you dual wield the pistols)

I would be happy if they got to use polearms though

[Deleted]

100% agree

They should rework Havoc full for me. And make it to switch in and out of meta playstyle.
Fast in fast out in pvp as in pve.

You have 2 or 3 abilitys to generate fury. ( demonsbite, felblade, chaosstrike)
If you reach 70 or more fury you could use Eyebeam. This brakes our demonbefore and transfer us in demonform.
In Demonform we get all new ability.
All abilitys in Demonform produce fury but we loose every second x fury. If the fury reach 0 our demonform ends.

Eyebeam has no CD and does the same damage like in alpha atm, but in demonform it is our AE and ST massiv damage but burns also 20 fury.
Chaos strike produce fury and in demonform it also produce fury but it makes more damage like on live.
Demonsbite produce fury like on live but is of the GCD and in demonform it switch to demonsblade and has a 100% chance per hit to regenerate x fury.
Blade dance gets a full rework. It has a 15 sec cd . It produce a hugh amount of chaos damage, and in Demonform it produce 50 or more fury .

Talents must be reworked yes but it would be more fun and complex to play.

Rota could be:
Felblade
Bladedance
Chaosstrike spam
with reset felblade
Demonsbite spam
Eyebeam (meta procs)


deathswipe
Eyebeam
felblade on CD
annihilation
annihilation
deathswipe
Eyebeam


Reset

This is from the vengeance post but i think this would be a nice play style for havoc in BfA.
I know this will never happen to our dd spec. But i could dream :P

Some talent switches and all could be fine.
Demonic reduce the fury loose per sec about x. So you maybe could stay in meta forever you have something to hit ;D

[Deleted]

Sry for the double post but after i test a lot on alpha some things are real interesting i think.

A bug or tooltip mistake:
Momentum give the damage buff from Fel rush and Vengeful retreat

Than Demon blades plays amazing on alpha maybe i have a realy lucky alpha but for me it feels like nearly a 100% chance to get fury with the same haste % than on live.

Chaosstrike feels aweful. The 40% chance feels like 10% or lower vs my DH on live with 50% crit. Maybe it procs after 8 or 9 CS. If you have 1 proc in Demonic meta your realy realy lucky feels realy bad atm.

Immolation Aura works and feels great the damage is maybe undertuned but is alpha, but the fury feels great.
Maybe a bit shorter cd would make it feel more smooth in some situations, but with Demonic it works well atm.

Bugged numbers for me atm are Eyebeam, fel barrage, Blade dance and Chaosstrike.
I know its alpha but i hope they change the damage a lot before it goes in beta or live.
You do enough damage for lvling and all but wich ability does how much damage feels aweful.
Felbarrage bugged and makes a lot more damage than it should i think. It does non crit ~8 times the damage of a chaosstrike non crit.
Chaosstrike hits like a wet nuddle on alpha vs Arms warrior MS hits more than double, Raptor Strike hits a lot harder.
Fel blade makes insane damage on alpha
Blade dance and the bleed from it makes realy bad damage atm, also with first blood.
Dark slash feels great, but i think CS should hit without DS so hard as atm with DS up.

Again its all number tuning but if i compare it with other abilitys from other classes that nearly work the same. Raptor strike from SV costs only 30 resource and hits harder with out talents. But you can talent it so you have the chance to do 45% more damage every 3 GcD .
Chakrams cost 30 resource has 20 sec cd but hits harder than eyebeam all targets and the first target. But is no cast and can be use while moving.

So atm i have to say the rework from SV feels a lot smoother and better concerned ( i hope its the right word, sry for my bad english) than the rework from DH talents.

Eyebeam on live hits harder maybe its because i have the legy helm on live and so i use it more often but it feels not the same.
For me Eyebeam damage should be doubled without talent. And than with talent again. If you spec the eyebeam talent the damage goes ok but its nothing vs live.
Also the full demonic build feels a lot clunky vs live, the resets from eyebeam and the spami CS while in Meta doesnt work again in alpha. So it dont feels realy good.

Momentum spec feels realy nice.

The Leech talent is realy bad design. The 10% out of meta is nothing. In pvp i dont know but in pve out of meta you have zero heal again, only demonic apetite let us heal.
The 10% leech are less than impending victory from warris.
I think they should push it to 20 or 30% and in meta to 50%. We have not bloodlet build so we have to stay melee for leech. I think 20 or 30% sounds fair. Hunter also get 10% from pet leech. So for me this talent is hard undertuned in pve . PVP cant test it only duels atm.

[Orloth]

I'd rather they switch out the leech talent for a Soul Carver like ability for both specs, separating the on demand heal into it's own ability rather than tying it to our main cooldowns.

[Sett]

More Demonic Trample nerfs? Blegh.