Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[shaunika123]

So an 8 second loss of control of any other type is okay, but not a silence where the afflicted player still has movement capabilities.

You're only objecting because silence effects as a whole have had a very very tight leash on them for an extremely long time.

iirc CC's as a whole will all be on the same DR now? that would conceivably include silence effects as well. So what's the big deal?

if we lost blind for 8 secodn silence it'd be totally fine.

but if we can blind sap KS garrote a healer and not have him cast for like forever. then it does matter.

and if every CC will be on the same DR then I'll touch pvp even less than I do now, that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard in my entire life.

the game is already about doing pve rotations into each other, if we get even less CC how is that a good thing?

[Valkaneer]

So after the the latest build I jumped on my rogue to try and it out and honestly - assassin is the only way to go now which is a shame as when I leveled in Legion as Sub, I loved every minute of it (and this was a month after go-live). Outlaw is a nightmare and just painful

Yep, I agree, Sin so far is one of the few specs that feels good. Surv Hunter, and Ele shaman is alright with the right setup, though I have seen some other specs do some pretty decent stuff. I tried Fire Mage and lvl 100 talents basically suck. I can fight all day as Sin vs 4 and 5 mobs at a time without much a problem so long as I have all my posions going. I will actually be surprised if it goes live with as much survivablity as it has right now. I'm expecting a nerf to Leeching poison because once I have that going I'm hard to kill.

[Wow]

Yep, I agree, Sin so far is one of the few specs that feels good. Surv Hunter, and Ele shaman is alright with the right setup, though I have seen some other specs do some pretty decent stuff. I tried Fire Mage and lvl 100 talents basically suck. I can fight all day as Sin vs 4 and 5 mobs at a time without much a problem so long as I have all my posions going. I will actually be surprised if it goes live with as much survivablity as it has right now. I'm expecting a nerf to Leeching poison because once I have that going I'm hard to kill.

Nothing about leeching's healing has changed from live why nerf it when the thing that is most likely off is the dmg tuning which is what the healing is based off. They massively buffed all assassination's dots with mastery and haste changes, lowered garrote cd to 6sec, the higher poison bomb proc chance, and lets not forget that poisons and bleeds now also scale with weapon dps, and all have got no real tuning but lets keep talking about nerfing leeching..

Because I can see where this would be going leeching gets nerfed then dmg gets tuned then leeching ends up terrible for everything.

[elfporn]

if we lost blind for 8 secodn silence it'd be totally fine.

but if we can blind sap KS garrote a healer and not have him cast for like forever. then it does matter.

and if every CC will be on the same DR then I'll touch pvp even less than I do now, that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard in my entire life.

the game is already about doing pve rotations into each other, if we get even less CC how is that a good thing?

I’m not 100% about the CC DR thing, i swear i saw a snippet somewhere about all the different DR types being rolled into one to reduce stunlock situations.

All damage dealt in this game is about doing your “pve rotation” to deal damage, always has been, always will be. Pvp is about maximising damage against the other team while minimising the damage they deal to you, usually through a combination of CC and healing, and defensive cooldowns. Reducing the “stunlock” effect lets players all around participate more in healing, damaging, and mitigating incoming damage. Loss of control effects aren’t fun in pvp.

But i’m not a pvp person. Maybe i misunderstood something i read.

[shaunika123]

Loss of control effects aren’t fun in pvp.

they're the only thing that are fun.

otherwise you might as well be fighting an NPC and see who can do more dps to the other.

[Deleted]

I really expect that they rework or delete RTB, i do not want anything more to happen with it.

And to those saying Outlaw should be ranged... are you concerned that most of Outlaw mains prefer this spec because the swords?

I miss sub with 1 sword and 1 dagger. Was very fencer like.

- - - Updated - - -

I’m not 100% about the CC DR thing, i swear i saw a snippet somewhere about all the different DR types being rolled into one to reduce stunlock situations.

All damage dealt in this game is about doing your “pve rotation” to deal damage, always has been, always will be. Pvp is about maximising damage against the other team while minimising the damage they deal to you, usually through a combination of CC and healing, and defensive cooldowns. Reducing the “stunlock” effect lets players all around participate more in healing, damaging, and mitigating incoming damage. Loss of control effects aren’t fun in pvp.

But i’m not a pvp person. Maybe i misunderstood something i read.

One caveat that it is maximum damage in the shortest time. For most comps unless ur specifically building a pressure comp.

[elfporn]

they're the only thing that are fun.

otherwise you might as well be fighting an NPC and see who can do more dps to the other.

This sounds like you enjoy being stunlocked for 8+ seconds with total loss of control of your character.

It might be fun if you’re doing it, but not for the other person.

I agree, seeing who can do more dps to the other is boring - it’s the main reason i like battlegrounds over arena, competing for an objective is much more enjoyable to me. Even then i hate pugging because of a lack of coordination.

[shaunika123]

This sounds like you enjoy being stunlocked for 8+ seconds with total loss of control of your character.

It might be fun if you’re doing it, but not for the other person.

I agree, seeing who can do more dps to the other is boring - it’s the main reason i like battlegrounds over arena, competing for an objective is much more enjoyable to me. Even then i hate pugging because of a lack of coordination.

setting up CC chains, and avoiding CC chains is part of what distinguishes good players from bad ones.

how can you be a rogue player and Hate CC that dont make a licka sense to me, that's what our entire class was based on

[elfporn]

setting up CC chains, and avoiding CC chains is part of what distinguishes good players from bad ones.

how can you be a rogue player and Hate CC that dont make a licka sense to me, that's what our entire class was based on

A sense of helplessness in any aspect of any type of play makes for a bad experience(for me atleast). The game shouldn’t be about who is able to cause and maintain loss of control first. I would have no issues with a blanket DR on loss of control effects, it would reward more careful coordination. An alternative would be a 1 second CC immunity after every application - example would be after kidney shot, in pvp, player is immune to CC for 1 second after - that might make things interesting too, but still leaves open chain CCing

It’s more about me despising arena than CC. I’ve never enjoyed arena, yet i highly enjoy battlegrounds(esp if i’m in a coordinated group), if that gives you an idea where i’m coming from.

I also don’t just play rogue - i’m able to understand from the victim’s viewpoint that being able to do nothing while the opponent kills you is a bad experience.

[shaunika123]

A sense of helplessness in any aspect of any type of play makes for a bad experience(for me atleast). The game shouldn’t be about who is able to cause and maintain loss of control first. I would have no issues with a blanket DR on loss of control effects, it would reward more careful coordination. An alternative would be a 1 second CC immunity after every application - example would be after kidney shot, in pvp, player is immune to CC for 1 second after - that might make things interesting too, but still leaves open chain CCing

It’s more about me despising arena than CC. I’ve never enjoyed arena, yet i highly enjoy battlegrounds(esp if i’m in a coordinated group), if that gives you an idea where i’m coming from.

I also don’t just play rogue - i’m able to understand from the victim’s viewpoint that being able to do nothing while the opponent kills you is a bad experience.

any nerf to CC is an indirect nerf to the rogue class in pvp. that's just how it is.

any other melee will double our damage, the only thing we have over them is CC (and survivability to an extent)

the less powerful CC is the more powerful DKs and warriors are.

I think it's completely fine for a class's niche to be about control, even with that 1sec immune window you speak if, they might as well remove sap from the game.

rogue is about CC it always has been. there are many ways to avoid getting CC chained by rogues though. chances are if they pull it off then you got outplayed.

ofc you can rework the class to be just as good with dmg and do less cc, but then we're not rogues anymore.

then again, i'm in the other boat.

I enjoy arena (well used to, not in the last 2-3 expansions, but its not arenas fault it's pvp being shitty in general) especially 2v2
and I despise battlegrounds.

[elfporn]

then again, i'm in the other boat.

I enjoy arena (well used to, not in the last 2-3 expansions, but its not arenas fault it's pvp being shitty in general) especially 2v2
and I despise battlegrounds.

The pieces will fall where they may(at this point) We shall see.

On that note - what do you despise about BGs?

Ill admit that i don’t like the zerg rush nature of the larger BGs. I feel like they should break them up into 3-5 different starting points and try and limit the zerging with more impactful objectives. A cool one would be a BG within a BG in AV where alliance and horde start in a mine - capture/defend before being able break out into the larger map.

Id enjoy the smaller maps more where you can coordinate easier. And i especially enjoy queueing as a group of 5 for the smaller BG’s and being able to make a large impact by working with friends.

That’s the worst part about BG’s imo - no more raid queuing for regular BGs, it severely limits how many friends you can bring for a bit of fun. Turns much of the experience into solo and small group play.

My favorite is Arathi Basin.

[shaunika123]

The pieces will fall where they may(at this point) We shall see.

On that note - what do you despise about BGs?

Ill admit that i don’t like the zerg rush nature of the larger BGs. I feel like they should break them up into 3-5 different starting points and try and limit the zerging with more impactful objectives. A cool one would be a BG within a BG in AV where alliance and horde start in a mine - capture/defend before being able break out into the larger map.

Id enjoy the smaller maps more where you can coordinate easier. And i especially enjoy queueing as a group of 5 for the smaller BG’s and being able to make a large impact by working with friends.

That’s the worst part about BG’s imo - no more raid queuing for regular BGs, it severely limits how many friends you can bring for a bit of fun. Turns much of the experience into solo and small group play.

My favorite is Arathi Basin.

simply, too many people.

the more individual skill can be shown the more I enjoy it(and with every added player the impact of individual skill gets reduced and teamwork becomes more important)

Like up until cata(where they stopped being playable in any way) my favourite pasttime was just dueling in front of org. I probably liked that better than arena tbh. especially rogue mirrors.

plus I dont like playing with healers, never have.

even when I got gladiator in s3 it was with 3 dps.

[Valkaneer]

Nothing about leeching's healing has changed from live why nerf it when the thing that is most likely off is the dmg tuning which is what the healing is based off. They massively buffed all assassination's dots with mastery and haste changes, lowered garrote cd to 6sec, the higher poison bomb proc chance, and lets not forget that poisons and bleeds now also scale with weapon dps, and all have got no real tuning but lets keep talking about nerfing leeching..

Because I can see where this would be going leeching gets nerfed then dmg gets tuned then leeching ends up terrible for everything.

Well obviously if they nerf the damage it would be lower, though some builds out there do just as much if not more damage from what I've seen. I would rather lose some leech than the damage, but I am not advocating for a nerf, it's just what I think could happen.

[bloodstripes]

Hey guys. I'm looking for a new class to main in BFA and I'm considering rogue. How do the specs feel? I'm a casual raider type and I have never had an end game rogue. I did main a Cat Druid in Cata.
Thanks!

[zaino]

Other classes/specs are not better because the GCD changes either. RiP WW monks and Fury Warriors.

i vomit in my mouth at the idea of playing ranged

[Vicus]

rogue is about CC it always has been. there are many ways to avoid getting CC chained by rogues though. chances are if they pull it off then you got outplayed.

ofc you can rework the class to be just as good with dmg and do less cc, but then we're not rogues anymore.

then again, i'm in the other boat.

I enjoy arena (well used to, not in the last 2-3 expansions, but its not arenas fault it's pvp being shitty in general) especially 2v2
and I despise battlegrounds.

Granted, for most of WoW history, it has been as you describe, but I loved my rogue in vanilla and pvped a good amount in premade BGs and Southshore. My idea of a rogue are high burst, and run away, or get caught and murdered game-play. Sure, CC was part of the 5 seconds until dead thing that rogues had going, but, the CC was secondary and the burst was primary.

I favored the following rolls:
• Back line assassin (ambush anyone low health, solo squishy classes like mages, or, with a second rogue, kill any stragglers 2v1)
• Setting and executing the 2 stealth rogues guarding a solo healer, trap, for the opposing scouting party
• Support (run flags with druid/rogue partner)
• Scouting (finding the other flag holder and defenders in WSG, seeing how many are holding what points in AB)

The advent of Arenas in BC switched rogue to being primarily CC monkeys, and stopped me from pvping on rogue for 5 xpacs.

[Deleted]

Apart from pvp:
How is outlaw/assa doing in bfa?

[Varolyn]

Apart from pvp:
How is outlaw/assa doing in bfa?

Well it's way to early to talk numbers atm. But in terms of how the too specs "feel" assassination plays pretty well and has a decently designed talent tree, while outlaw plays okay at best but arguably has the worst talent tree on the alpha.

[Delphya]

I’m not 100% about the CC DR thing, i swear i saw a snippet somewhere about all the different DR types being rolled into one to reduce stunlock situations.

All damage dealt in this game is about doing your “pve rotation” to deal damage, always has been, always will be. Pvp is about maximising damage against the other team while minimising the damage they deal to you, usually through a combination of CC and healing, and defensive cooldowns. Reducing the “stunlock” effect lets players all around participate more in healing, damaging, and mitigating incoming damage. Loss of control effects aren’t fun in pvp.

But i’m not a pvp person. Maybe i misunderstood something i read.

lol boy u should really consider quit playing rogue, we are the CC class, go play dk and do ur pve damage.
Infracted.

[elfporn]

lol boy u should really consider quit playing rogue, we are the CC class, go play dk and do ur pve damage.

it really was not always that way.

You should recheck your history. pvp wasn't always CC oriented. rogue pvp in particular wasn't always CC oriented, atleast not more than other classes and absolutely not at the point where rogue is brought for CC/control with negligible damage.

Rogue used to be the king of burst damage, of the ambush style of play. Sure we had a stun, everyone had a stun or CC.

"Quit playing rogue" i've played rogue since the the game released. I'm not likely to quit because pvp sucks donkey dick.

saying "pve damage" makes people sound retarded too, there is no pve or pvp damage, there is damage. You deal damage in pvp the same way you do in pve, albeit with more focus on burst. Maybe its a pve people vs pvp people thing, which is also stupid. More likely it's an elitist douchebag attitude. Seen that before, laughed him out of the room.