Can Conservatives Move Beyond the Identity Politics of Misogyny?

[Elegiac]

Of course they are not mutually exclusive, hence we have mixed systems with all three. I'm referring to priority as in which idea is more important.

They aren't all equal, in fact thinking they can be equal is what gets you combinations like national socialism.

This is precisely what I mean by conservatives not thinking very hard.

"Socialism", "Nationalism", etc. are not ends in of themselves. They are means by which to effect an end, that being the welfare of society; policies should be valued by their individual merits rather than which ideology they belong to.

[PC2]

This is precisely what I mean by conservatives not thinking very hard.

"Socialism", "Nationalism", etc. are not ends in of themselves. They are means by which to effect an end, that being the welfare of society; policies should be valued by their individual merits rather than which ideology they belong to.

Humanity doesn't agree on "ends". One person may think the end is about the progress of truth and knowledge. Another may think it's pleasing a god or min-maxing human emotions. But we're on a political sub-forum, what you're talking about would be more appropriate as a philosophical thread in the main Gen-OT forum.

[Elegiac]

Humanity doesn't agree on "ends". One person may think the end is about the progress of truth and knowledge. Another may think it's pleasing a god or min-maxing human emotions. But we're on a political sub-forum, what you're talking about would be more appropriate as a philosophical thread in the main Gen-OT forum.

We aren't talking about individual goals, we're talking about social goals.

And every society on earth has fundamentally been founded to provide for social prosperity; that they get taken advantage of is a function of the imperfections of human nature, not a dissonance in ends.

So in summary; your ranking is full of shit.

[PC2]

We aren't talking about individual goals, we're talking about social goals.

And every society on earth has fundamentally been founded to provide for social prosperity; that they get taken advantage of is a function of the imperfections of human nature, not a dissonance in ends.

So in summary; your ranking is full of shit.

You value social goals. Other people have different goals and values.

[Theodarzna]

You value social goals. Other people have different goals and values.

Social Goals can be anything and what constitutes a singular society is up for a highly contentious debate.

But indeed your ranking is flawed and your insistence on again using gamer lingo really doesn't lend me much confidence that you think too deeply about these things.

[Elegiac]

You value social goals. Other people have different goals and values.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Once again, we aren't talking about individual goals.

[PC2]

Social Goals can be anything and what constitutes a singular society is up for a highly contentious debate.

I agree it's all up for debate.

But indeed your ranking is flawed and your insistence on again using gamer lingo really doesn't lend me much confidence that you think too deeply about these things.

Sure my ranking could be flawed. If you have much deeper political answers then feel free to share them.

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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Once again, we aren't talking about individual goals.

Some people are talking about both individual goals and social goals. If you want to limit everything to social goals then fine, that's your choice.

[Theodarzna]

I agree it's all up for debate.

Sure my ranking could be flawed. If you have much deeper political answers then feel free to share them.

I shared them, you did not understand them however due to a lack of knowledge about the distinction between a Nation and a State.

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That actually proves her wrong. Organizations can therefore have goals.

Groups of people might have a goal, or the dominating individual within that organization might have a goal, but there is no decision making here outside of humans.

[PC2]

I shared them, you did not understand them however due to a lack of knowledge about the distinction between a Nation and a State.

I understand your prediction but I don't agree with the degree to which it will change how states operate economically.

[Theodarzna]

I understand your prediction but I don't agree with the degree to which it will change how states operate economically.

States will operate poorly as they will no longer have the command or loyalty of the masses they govern. They will have about the same loyalty as say an assistant manager has at a Wal-Mart.

[PC2]

States will operate poorly as they will no longer have the command or loyalty of the masses they govern. They will have about the same loyalty as say an assistant manager has at a Wal-Mart.

That makes me very optimistic about the economy, because the state is typically hamstringing the economy. It should just offer basic services like police, the military, and social services like TANF and SNAP.

[Theodarzna]

That makes me very optimistic about the economy, because the state is typically hamstringing the economy. It should just offer basic services like police, the military, and social services like TANF and SNAP.

Education policy?

[PC2]

Education policy?

I'm kind of torn on that because US public K-12 seems like a giant failure for the cost. Yet I'm not really sure about the details of alternatives like charter and home school. If I were in charge, part of me would want to scrap public school, but guarantee every residence has internet access. Then offer support for a single online learning platform that gives parents full responsibility for motivating their kid.

I don't want to be an anarchist but I also don't want to automatically buy into conventional wisdom either.

[Theodarzna]

I'm kind of torn on that because US public K-12 seems like a giant failure for the cost. Yet I'm not really sure about the details of alternatives like charter and home school. If I were in charge, part of me would want to scrap public school, but guarantee every residence has internet access. Then offer support for a single online learning platform that gives parents full responsibility for motivating their kid.

I don't want to be an anarchist but I also don't want to automatically buy into conventional wisdom either.

Having an entirely minimalist State would only work with homeschool and private local schools or something. An education policy inevitably forces a State to pick a cultural narrative and a culture/language.

[mvaliz]

...and for the first time ever, I can actually view an entire browser from top-to-bottom with nothing but deplorables on ignore. Admittedly, it's only the two of them probably circle-validating each other's talking-point rhetoric I imagine, but still... it's fun to see a whole page of blocked posts. :P

[Slybak]

Do you know what a Nation is?
Hint, while many use it as a shorthand for a state, that's a misnomer, primarily derived from that fact that the original thinking on this almost exclusively came from Nation states.
A Nation state is a state where the absolute majority of the population belongs to the same nation, either wholly or partially.
It's debatable if the US ever where a nation state, or if it were, multiple different nations over time.

Unless you're invoking something along the line's of David Hackett Finchers "Four Folkways" theory of American political development, you're wrong. The U.S. effectively became a nation state in a formal sense of the term on July 9, 1868, when the 14th Amendment of the Constitution was ratified.

In any case if we are to accept that the US were/are a Nation state, that Nation is White Europeans, Of some christian variety (or if you go back in time WASPs).

At the time of the founding of the United States and a good deal later, there was no such thing as "White Europeans." There were English, of course, and French and Spanish and Dutch and so on, and innumerable subdivisions based on ethnolinguistic or religious customs, but they were all too busy killing each other over those distinctions to even conceive of a such a comradeship, much less act as if one existed.

You should read some Benedict Anderson. His work mostly focused on nationalism, but as understanding nationhood itself and its relationship to state power is prerequisite he does a lot on that too.

The current Hispanic immigration is (or already has) killed the US Nation state.

Your ideological forebears said the exact same thing about "the current Irish immigration" and "the current Chinese immigration," and if the veracity of their own xenophobic predictions are any indication, you'll be in the garbage pile of history along with them.

[PC2]

Having an entirely minimalist State would only work with homeschool and private local schools or something. An education policy inevitably forces a State to pick a cultural narrative and a culture/language.

Yeah education is a hard topic. The public route is easy because you just choose a path based on how you want to train citizens. The opposite of that is very hard because if you choose a cultural narrative then you lose objectivity and truth. Language support and STEM would be easy, but topics like history is probably impossible to teach without a sentimental lense.

[Theodarzna]

Yeah education is a hard topic. The public route is easy because you just choose a path based on how you want to train citizens. The opposite of that is very hard because if you choose a cultural narrative then you lose objectivity and truth. Language support and STEM would be easy, but topics like history is probably impossible to teach without a sentimental lense.

Language becomes a sticky subject without effectively trying to assert a specific culture is the culture of the State.

[Karfal]

I think it's pathetic that accusations ruin people's lives. Rather their right or left wing. Accusations are just that accusations. Liberals use slander to ruin Roy Moore, Can is fits the only way they can win.

Guys like that leftist from Detroit who retiredfor "health" reasons, is wrong. We have due process for a reason and unless there is proof(like with Clinton Weinstein or Matt lauer) lives and careers shouldn't be ruined without due process.

[Orbitus]

I think it's pathetic that accusations ruin people's lives. Rather their right or left wing. Accusations are just that accusations. Liberals use slander to ruin Roy Moore, Can is fits the only way they can win.

Guys like that leftist from Detroit who retiredfor "health" reasons, is wrong. We have due process for a reason and unless there is proof(like with Clinton Weinstein or Matt lauer) lives and careers shouldn't be ruined without due process.

Sorry, but there was plenty of proof Roy Moore was a sexual assaulter and credible proof that he was a pedophile. Just because you chose to ignore it, doesn't make it go away. If there was slander, Roy Moore would have had a good case against them in court, but he didn't even attempt to sue.

But coming from a guy that thinks he is getting banned LITERALLY for being conservative, that is hilarious that he thinks it was just "slander". I don't know of anyone that got kicked out of a mall for just talking to people. Or a guy that goes to a dance recital without having family of some sort there. Or signing a yearbook or graduation card for someone he barely knows or isn't related to.