Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Deleted]

What exactly do these quests contradict? Alliance quests mention spies already present in the Horde camp before the player is sent to carry Alliance to victory. Horde quests start with Alliance spies being discovered. Things seem to fit together.




What straw-man? Your claim was simply incomplete, while you were throwing accusation of delusions around. An attack, no matter how small, is a valid casus belli. Why do you think Nazis faked a tiny border incident with Poland just before they invaded? Your examples of small incidents not starting a war are meaningless. Because just because you can go to war doesn't mean you should. You only ever go to war if you think the benefits of it surpass the negatives. All of your examples could start a full scale war if the attacked faction wished so.

....And guess which faction opens up the full scale war? Guessed it. Horde. (This is based on data we have up until now)

An incident where is not clear who is right and wrong does not compare to a full-scale invasion of one's homeland.

[Mehrunes]

....And guess which faction opens up the full scale war? Guessed it. Horde. (This is based on data we have up until now)

An incident where is not clear who is right and wrong does not compare to a full-scale invasion of one's homeland.

And guess what, the incident, that doesn't need to compare to anything at all, gives them the right to do so and makes the Alliance the aggressor. And it's not clear who's right or wrong? Alliance attacks a Horde outpost before they actually discover Horde's plans for Azerite that'd grant them some minimum justification for aggression, while the Horde defends their outpost. Rocket surgery right here.

[Deleted]

And guess what, the incident, that doesn't need to compare to anything at all, gives them the right to do so and makes the Alliance the aggressor. And it's not clear who's right or wrong? Alliance attacks a Horde outpost before they actually discover Horde's plans for Azerite that'd grant them some minimum justification for aggression, while the Horde defends their outpost. Rocket surgery right here.

Horde outpost? On neutral ground? Who or what gives the Horde the right to lay claim on the wound of Azeroth and exploit it for their own needs?

At any rate, no, this incident does not merit an invasion into elven lands in any way. Thats just like having the US get into a scuffle with a Russian outpost in the middle of nowhere at which point Russians attack South Korea instead. Which, for the record, does not seem warranted.

[Kiri]

What exactly do these quests contradict? Alliance quests mention spies already present and undiscovered in the Horde camp before the player is sent to carry Alliance to victory. Horde quests start with Alliance spies being discovered. Things seem to fit together. And most of your examples are retcons.

Precisely, Blizzard will just retcon the war-starter to whomever they wish, so this is pretty pointless.
Regarding the Silithus quests, it is pretty simple.
Horde quest does not mention them being under active attack, just that there are pesky spies, go kill 'em.
Alliance quest does not mention their spies being under attack, just that the goblins have samples, go kill 'em.
As such, whoever spills first blood basically changes depending on which faction you play and the other attack basically does not happen. This is consistent with Blizzard's treatment of quests involving the same battle for both factions. Oftentimes, if both faction's quests play out as stated, there occur contradictions. They try sometimes to have both sides succeed, for example, but usually, they do not bother and only fill in afterwards who did what. Silithus is clearly in the latter category. The horde quest giver would behave quite differently if the alliance was rampaging through their camps killing miners, and the alliance quest giver would act differently if their spies were being stomped all over the place.
Long story short, these quests only have the broad meaning 'skirmish started'. Trying to read into specific details is pointless, as the quests are not designed to give clear lore implications. Books and later quests will tell exactly who stabbed first etc.

[Ash123]

Horde outpost? On neutral ground? Who or what gives the Horde the right to lay claim on the wound of Azeroth and exploit it for their own needs?

Horde has right to mine natural resources on territory belonged to and claimed by no other political entities (something dwarfs had been done for quite a long time), not to mention that the Horde is the party that discovered this resources and realized its potential first. Horde does not need to ask anyone for permission unless you can find a treaty or precedence in which Horde and Alliance banned the activities of carrying mining operations in neutral grounds.

Alliance had the choice of mining minerals by its own or called an ultimatum, but they chose violent action.

At any rate, no, this incident does not merit an invasion into elven lands in any way. Thats just like having the US get into a scuffle with a Russian outpost in the middle of nowhere at which point Russians attack South Korea instead. Which, for the record, does not seem warranted.

Your argument is problematic as you implies that military action into elven land and total war between horde and alliance are two things that are unrelated.

And at this point, we still did not know what happened between the current point and the total war in BFA. But let us just assume that Sylvanas declared war right after she received the report. In that case, she response Alliance action with war, which, given alliance's tendency of not using diplomacy, is justified. Then the invasion into elven lands should not be regarded as an action towards a neutral third party as you implied in your argument. You have to remembered that alliance is an organization that acts in unison for war/peace, and many Alliance's spies are night elves.

[Aquamonkey]

Horde has right to mine natural resources on territory belonged to and claimed by no other political entities (something dwarfs had been done for quite a long time),

That's funny. Neutral territory? Dwarves will mine shit in anybody's territory, even if it's the Horde's (2 separate occasions).

[Ash123]

That's funny. Neutral territory? Dwarves will mine shit in anybody's territory, even if it's the Horde's (2 separate occasions).

I am actually wondering why no one has ever called dwarves the biggest aggressor in wow history, who literately ignore any property right as long as they could dig something. Forsaken had done some shitty stuffs but even they restricted their action into a small corner of the world...

[Darktbs]

I am actually wondering why no one has ever called dwarves the biggest aggressor in wow history, who literately ignore any property right as long as they could dig something. Forsaken had done some shitty stuffs but even they restricted their action into a small corner of the world...

That title should go to the Orcs then, not only did they start shit in their world but went into another to start more shit.

[ello]

That's funny. Neutral territory? Dwarves will mine shit in anybody's territory, even if it's the Horde's (2 separate occasions).

I remember Stonespire Tauren but what's the other? Frostmane trolls?

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I am actually wondering why no one has ever called dwarves the biggest aggressor in wow history, who literately ignore any property right as long as they could dig something. Forsaken had done some shitty stuffs but even they restricted their action into a small corner of the world...

It's actually so dumb that the Dwarves wiped out an entire tribe of Tauren and nobody in game seems to give a damn.

Meanwhile Jaina is STILL kvetching about Theramore.

jfc

[Kallisto]

....And guess which faction opens up the full scale war? Guessed it. Horde. (This is based on data we have up until now)

An incident where is not clear who is right and wrong does not compare to a full-scale invasion of one's homeland.

You punch me in the face.

I punch you back, kick you in the nuts and stamp on your stomach to make sure you stay down.

Who started the fight? You did. I just made sure you couldn't do it again. Was it an escalation? Sure but it is in my right to do so in self defense.

[Aquamonkey]

I remember Stonespire Tauren but what's the other? Frostmane trolls?

The 2 I was thinking of were Alterac Valley and Bael Modan in the Barrens.

[FuxieDK]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

Wait... What???

Horde evil? Since when??

[Darknessvamp]

That's funny. Neutral territory? Dwarves will mine shit in anybody's territory, even if it's the Horde's (2 separate occasions).

Not to mention the Explorer's League sets up where ever it damn well pleases and starts mining away for artifacts to bring back to the Alliance. Though the Reliquary that was set up later also tend to do the same in neutral zones but it still shows there is nothing stopping the Horde or Alliance setting up camps in Neutral areas.

[Whitedragon]

Highlighted the phrases that are you shooting your narrative dead. Just because those previous conflicts didn't result in a war does not mean incidents like these cannot be cause for war. In this case, there is a war following such an incident.




TIL quests aren't lore.

The turn around is yes the Alliance started a war with a very minor conflict (Which can still be seen as a gray area because the goblins do attack you on sight, so Alliance members have a claim to be acting in self defense), but the horde right after use some super powerful object to attempt mass genocide by destroying a nations capitol regardless of the impact that may have on the world considering what that capitol is. horde also wonder why the Alliance sees them mining a super powerful substance as an act of aggression considering their numerable abuses of super powerful objects in the past?

[Andromedes]

Are we suddenly ignoring that the alliance attacked and destroyed camp taurajo?

Are we suddenly ignoring that the horde attacked and destroyed southshore, hillsbrad fields, dun garok, bael modan, druid school, theramore, gilneas? All in cataclysm.

[Deleted]

Horde has right to mine natural resources on territory belonged to and claimed by no other political entities (something dwarfs had been done for quite a long time), not to mention that the Horde is the party that discovered this resources and realized its potential first. Horde does not need to ask anyone for permission unless you can find a treaty or precedence in which Horde and Alliance banned the activities of carrying mining operations in neutral grounds.

Alliance had the choice of mining minerals by its own or called an ultimatum, but they chose violent action.



Your argument is problematic as you implies that military action into elven land and total war between horde and alliance are two things that are unrelated.

And at this point, we still did not know what happened between the current point and the total war in BFA. But let us just assume that Sylvanas declared war right after she received the report. In that case, she response Alliance action with war, which, given alliance's tendency of not using diplomacy, is justified. Then the invasion into elven lands should not be regarded as an action towards a neutral third party as you implied in your argument. You have to remembered that alliance is an organization that acts in unison for war/peace, and many Alliance's spies are night elves.

Yea well that territory was claimed by other entities before, the Cenarion Circle to be exact, which got wiped out. And I do not know how sending spies is actually violent action. Especially if the horde expects such spies and are instructed to kill them on sight, while the Alliance is initially wary and instructed to watch for any aggression.

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Not to mention the Explorer's League sets up where ever it damn well pleases and starts mining away for artifacts to bring back to the Alliance. Though the Reliquary that was set up later also tend to do the same in neutral zones but it still shows there is nothing stopping the Horde or Alliance setting up camps in Neutral areas.

Yea funny that, nobody seems to mention how those dwarven digsites accross neutral territories tend to get slaughtered without an "Ultimatum" or peaceful coexistence.

There is also the fact they are actually mining for metals or trinkets and not the blood of a damn titan, which accidentally is really powerfull.

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You punch me in the face.

I punch you back, kick you in the nuts and stamp on your stomach to make sure you stay down.

Who started the fight? You did. I just made sure you couldn't do it again. Was it an escalation? Sure but it is in my right to do so in self defense.

Those goblin miners punched me first, I killed them all, took their Azerite. Self defense!

Also your analogy sucks btw. It would be more like we bump on the street, then you beat me up proper good because of that.

[Zulkhan]

Horde outpost? On neutral ground? Who or what gives the Horde the right to lay claim on the wound of Azeroth and exploit it for their own needs?

Yeah man, because an Alliance outpost attacked by the Horde in the middle of nowhere wouldn't totally be considered an act of warmongering aggression. I've seen enough shit on WoW forums to even start to believe the contrary.

The 2 I was thinking of were Alterac Valley and Bael Modan in the Barrens.

Don't forget the mining operation in Mulgore, which I believe got every single one of those Dwarves killed by enraged Earth elementals by the time the Cataclysm happened.

Yea funny that, nobody seems to mention how those dwarven digsites accross neutral territories tend to get slaughtered without an "Ultimatum" or peaceful coexistence.

You get the whole thing wrong. The Dwarves that get slaughtered are usually those who believe they can set digsites wherever they want and giving a shit if the land belongs to someone in the first place.

And hell no, Dwarves are stubborn and are showed to not really give a damn about ultimatums. Tauren are a balanced race that often try to pursue reasonable solutions to various problems before swinging their totems around, yet both the Dwarves of Mulgore and the Barrens required lethal force to convince them of getting the fuck out; in both these situations ultimatums were effectively mentioned and in both occasions these have been ignored.

[Deleted]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

By the Horde nuking down Cities full of Civilians just for the lolz instead of destroying them and trying to let their civilians escape, Alliance style, or simply conquering them, occupying them and using the Population as Hostages either to sell them or to try to get to to negotiate with the enemy faction.

I mean, conquering Theramore traditionally would have been beneficial for the Horde in the long run. They would have a bargaining chip against the Alliance, they could use Theramores economical power and ressources to finance their war effort and in the worst or best case, use Jaina as a negotiator for their cause. Or make it like Varian did. Conquer the City, tell Jaina that if she ever attacks the Horde again they will end them and leave.

[Zulkhan]

By the Horde nuking down Cities full of Civilians

[Citation needed]

[Aquamonkey]

I mean, conquering Theramore traditionally would have been beneficial for the Horde in the long run. They would have a bargaining chip against the Alliance, they could use Theramores economical power and ressources to finance their war effort and in the worst or best case, use Jaina as a negotiator for their cause. Or make it like Varian did.

As opposed to drawing in as much of the Alliance military as possible and destroying them? Destroying their military presence in the region. And what economical power and resources can they take from Theramore? It's in a swamp that they now control with its destruction. Its primary value was being an Alliance port on the continent; its strategic location. It has no economic value to the Horde. Maybe if it had a vault full of gold the Horde could pillage...

Conquer the City, tell Jaina that if she ever attacks the Horde again they will end them and leave.

...or just skip that step entirely and obliterate the city.