Varian Jaina and what could have been?

[Highwhale]

Since Legion release it is oblivious that after Broken Shore events most of the work to defeat Burning Legion was done by Class Orders and its champions. Third side factions - not by Alliance or Horde. Although both factions did they part during early BL attack prior Broken Isles events and during Suramar campaign.

So now looking at new Alliance vs Horde war in BFA i'm wondering - was Jaina right after all? Should have Varian dismantle the Horde back in MoP siege of Ogrimmar? Its not another Horde hate thread - i'm just curious. What would have happened during Legion and after it?

We know that Alliance and Horde did the smallest to defeat BL. Even more in Stormheim they clash between each others. So argument that without one faction another will completely lose to BL and Azeroth would fall is kinda invalid.

So lets imagine Varian did dismantled Horde:

Orcs - I believe they would have been forced between choice placed in camps like after Second War or exiled into Outland.

Trolls - Considering their numbers i think Alliance would have left them on their own.

Taurens - Without the doubt Alliance would have offered them opportunity to work together and with time taurens would become full Alliance member.

Goblins - I think they would stay neutral like another (forgot the name) goblin cartel.

Blood Elves - Same treatment like with Taurens

Forsaken - The most interesting part. I believe Varian would put them ultimatum. They leave Arathi, Hillsbrad, Hinterlands and most part of Silverpine and Tirisfal Glades for Alliance. Sylvanas and most of Forsaken would ofcourse refuse and Alliance would put them down. Those Forsaken who stay away from conflict will probably ends up living like hermits and left alone.

So what next? No WoD since Varian would took Garrosh and executed him without trial. Sooner of later Burning Legion would returned to Azeroth. But instead of two factions who still fight each others there will be strong and powerful Alliance of 9 races - Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, Draenei, Worgen, Pandaren, Tauren and Blood Elves.

Almost forgot - no stupid BFA.

[ReVnX]

Oh boy, you are going to get a lot of hate for this.

But, yeah Jaina was absolutely right, the Horde could and should have dismantled after SoO from a lore point of view

To be fair, most of the Horde races do not even have such strong feelings against the Alliance

[Friendlyimmolation]

Everyone dies, years after the Alliance spends taking thunder bluff alone , (and let’s say they win) there’s no Guldan, which means no legion, which also means no one to stop Sarg from nabbing Eonar. In the end everyone dies.

[Vaelorian]

I think the orcs would have made small towns... they do not need to be put in camps. Just scattered.
Or even perhaps Varian would go against their strongest orc and see who would win to be a "warchief" over the orcs. Varian as in the comics is unbelievably strong as a warrior. Perhaps Saurfang could be an advisor to Varian then. A lot of Orcs are honorable. Those are the ones that could make this work.

Now I know the above will probably get a lot of hate. I don't care. But the point of this is that the "antagonistic" alliance vs horde thing is imo dead. It serves no purpose. We should just all unite under a council of leaders.

[Highwhale]

I think the orcs would have made small towns... they do not need to be put in camps. Just scattered.
Or even perhaps Varian would go against their strongest orc and see who would win to be a "warchief" over the orcs. Varian as in the comics is unbelievably strong as a warrior. Perhaps Saurfang could be an advisor to Varian then. A lot of Orcs are honorable. Those are the ones that could make this work.

Now I know the above will probably get a lot of hate. I don't care. But the point of this is that the "antagonistic" alliance vs horde thing is imo dead. It serves no purpose. We should just all unite under a council of leaders.

I think its could. Considering Varian and Saurfang both warriors and Varian adopted a lot from orcs during his gladiator days i think they could integrate small part of orcs in Alliance military structure.

PS There was some guy who though i was shipping Varian and Jaina ROFL. He deleted his post.

[Ithekro]

Varian for Warchief. For the Alliance! Lo'Gosh for Warchief. Make the Horde strong again to fight the Legion.

[Ryon21]

It is difficult to say. I'd assume that the Horde members wouldn't let the Alliance dismantle them without a fight. So more bloodshed would occur. Interestingly, you could say that it would have played out exactly as of BfA (without the Azerite factor in it) since the two came from a war in Pandaria. But yeah, anything could have happened.

[Techno-Druid]

I doubt the orcs would have been forced into camps, but they would likely be confined to Durotar (which is in itself, the orcish nation) and maybe parts of the Barrens. The Warsong would undoubtedly be forced to withdraw from Ashenvale.

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone dies, years after the Alliance spends taking thunder bluff alone , (and let’s say they win) there’s no Guldan, which means no legion, which also means no one to stop Sarg from nabbing Eonar. In the end everyone dies.

Assuming the Alliance does defeat and occupy the Horde races, they would also have to likely directly aid races like orcs, which were pushing out of Durotar and into Ashenvale for resources. So a lot of peasants would have to work much harder and even with their lowly status and poor education, they would be unhappy with the idea of feeding a foreign and formerly belligerent nation and would probably try and rebel.

[Mehrunes]

1. Without Malfurion and Velen present, the Alliance leaders at SoO get wiped out since they have no heavyweights to carry them.
2. Basically leaderless, the Alliance descends into chaos. Stormwind falls without its dynasty. The church is most likely the one to hold things together due to its authority. But oh, wait, they are Old God worshippers. With Moira dead, Ironforge falls into infighting between various groups vying for power once more. Gnomes hold elections I think, so they waste time doing that. Draenei most likely flee Azeroth like they already planned before the Cataclysm hit.
3. Betrayed by the people they allied with to take down Garrosh, after the Alliance already started the war in the first place and were losing it until the Rebellion happened, the Horde decides to introduce the final solution to the Alliance problem and dismantle the Alliance instead. Night Elves fall first. They already barely survived just due to SW bailing them out, which isn't going to happen again. Forsaken and Blood Elf fleet sail to Stormwind. Blood Elves potentially finally use Sunwell for offensive spellcasting. The war ends with the siege of Ironforge. Either by starving the Dwarves out or with Gnome sappers breaching into it (the breach needs to be large enough just to pour the Blight in and turn Ironforge into a can of green goop).
4. Garrosh, having escaped during the SoO faction brawl, probably gets captured by Wrathion and we get WoD anyway, just without the idiotic trial.

But even if Alliance magically managed to survive Horde's counterattack to Varian's proposal and then managed to dismantle the Horde, the Alliance would get wiped out at the Broken Shore. Without the Horde retreating forcing the Alliance to retreat as well in order to avoid getting surrounded, Alliance would continue to overextend in an unwinnable fight. And then Gul'dan would drop the Fel Reaver on top of them while they are still on the ground.

[Rosalynda]

1. Without Malfurion and Velen present, the Alliance leaders at SoO get wiped out since they have no heavyweights to carry them.

And what heavyweights did the horde have with them? Thrall, who got his ass completely trounced by Garrosh before the fight. Baine, who is for all intents and purposes a warrior of relatively unknown skill. Vol'jin, can he really be called a powerhouse when nameless felgrunt #1047 took him down?. Lor'Themar, relatively even with Jaina(No, your "elves superior hur dur" does not count here, because they are not). That leaves... Sylvanas? The horde also had no soldiers present in the cutscene and only a measly 4 outside of it. Oh, and some random ass goblin, likely the previous model for the forgettable obese goblin.

The alliance? Moira, Jaina, Varian, Gelbin, Tyrande, Anduin and at least 14 soldiers present just outside the cinematic (10 more than horde).

For all intents and purposes, the horde would be kinda screwed. So... yeah.

Edit: For some reason i thought Lol'themar was a mage. turns out he is a measly farstrider. The horde really do lack any powerhouses there now.

[Aeula]

Vajaina and their forces would have had years of war trying to eradicate the Horde. The Iron Horde would likely have gained a massive foothold and actually have become a threat, likely succeeding in their plan to destroy stormwind. The Legion would have also found a way to corrupt them no doubt, making them an actual threat too. The Horde wouldn't be there to help because they'd be too busy defending from the Alliance.

The Alliance and Horde might have been useless during the Legion invasion, but the Iron Horde war was 90% them. The Horde wouldn't be there to help and the Alliance would have its forces split trying to deal with two problems at once. Then the Legion swoops in and boom. The Alliance and the Horde would have had their forces too depleted to fight back, the broken shore would have been a disaster since the Horde wouldn't be there to retreat and force the Alliance to do so too.

Of course it's Blizzard writing the 'story' and they can do whatever the fuck they want. Logic be damned. So who knows?

[Shibito]

And what heavyweights did the horde have with them? Thrall, who got his ass completely trounced by Garrosh before the fight. Baine, who is for all intents and purposes a warrior of relatively unknown skill. Vol'jin, can he really be called a powerhouse when nameless felgrunt #1047 took him down?. Lor'Themar, relatively even with Jaina(No, your "elves superior hur dur" does not count here, because they are not). That leaves... Sylvanas? The horde also had no soldiers present in the cutscene and only a measly 4 outside of it. Oh, and some random ass goblin, likely the previous model for the forgettable obese goblin.

The alliance? Moira, Jaina, Varian, Gelbin, Tyrande, Anduin and at least 14 soldiers present just outside the cinematic (10 more than horde).

For all intents and purposes, the horde would be kinda screwed. So... yeah.

Edit: For some reason i thought Lol'themar was a mage. turns out he is a measly farstrider. The horde really do lack any powerhouses there now.

Its so funny seeing triggered alliance fanboys

[Mehrunes]

And what heavyweights did the horde have with them? Thrall, who got his ass completely trounced by Garrosh before the fight. Baine, who is for all intents and purposes a warrior of relatively unknown skill. Vol'jin, can he really be called a powerhouse when nameless felgrunt #1047 took him down?. Lor'Themar, relatively even with Jaina(No, your "elves superior hur dur" does not count here, because they are not). That leaves... Sylvanas? The horde also had no soldiers present in the cutscene and only a measly 4 outside of it. Oh, and some random ass goblin, likely the previous model for the forgettable obese goblin.

The alliance? Moira, Jaina, Varian, Gelbin, Tyrande, Anduin and at least 14 soldiers present just outside the cinematic (10 more than horde).

For all intents and purposes, the horde would be kinda screwed. So... yeah.

Given how Jaina did nothing to Thalen Songweaver who's as random as Blood Elves go, even though she cast an Arcane Blast she poured all of her might into at him, Elves being superior to her works pretty well. Thrall getting owned by Old God-powered Garrosh is meaningless given how Alliance had no one on Garrosh's level present with them. Garrosh owned Varian in their last fight even without Old God juice. Same goes to random Felguards. Baine is a Tauren and that alone gives him an advantage over Alliance's melee fighters. Gallywix fared pretty well in melee combat in his short story too. And yes, Sylvanas is aplenty. Her scream would silence the spell casters present (so the only thing of value the Alliance had going for them). And break their bones and armor. At which point even Vol'jin's son that's in a soul gem would be able to finish them off. And Horde had no soldiers present? You mean outside of those that obfuscated the view for Alliance leaders?

But even if the scream didn't break their bones or even silence them:
1. Geblin is worthless outside of his suit, unlike Gallywix who knows how to fight.
2. Jaina is useless all around, even when she isn't casting her spells at Blood Elves that have some innate magic resistance. Her biggest combat feat when not using the Focusing Iris was freezing Aethas and having her Elemental kill 3 of his guards in a surprise attack. Other than that she's good for teleporting the retreating Alliance forces away.
3. Tyrande has no achievements when it comes to offensive abilities. She has some nice defense, but only when Elune babysits her. Whe she does not, even running water defeats Tyrande.
4. Varian got progressively weaker in his duels with Garrosh. Also, as your argument goes, he was defeated by random Felguards.
5. At the time Anduin also had only achievements that are in defensive category (or, to be more accurate, one achievement). When it comes to combat prowess his biggest achievement was collapsing the Divine Bell on top of himself.
6. I don't think we've ever seen Moira fight.

[Deleted]

They couldve ended it, but there is a game that needs to go on for many more years.

That's always the main reason for everything in the lore: the game needs to keep going.

[Rosalynda]

Given how Jaina did nothing to Thalen Songweaver who's as random as Blood Elves go, even though she cast an Arcane Blast she poured all of her might into at him, Elves being superior to her works pretty well. Thrall getting owned by Old God-powered Garrosh is meaningless given how Alliance had no one on Garrosh's level present with them. Garrosh owned Varian in their last fight even without Old God juice. Same goes to random Felguards. Baine is a Tauren and that alone gives him an advantage over Alliance's melee fighters. Gallywix fared pretty well in melee combat in his short story too. And yes, Sylvanas is aplenty. Her scream would silence the spell casters present (so the only thing of value the Alliance had going for them). And break their bones and armor. At which point even Vol'jin's son that's in a soul gem would be able to finish them off. And Horde had no soldiers present? You mean outside of those that obfuscated the view for Alliance leaders?

Ahh right, so we're twisting things now with famous horde bias. Gotchya.

Jaina's power, who can say what she is capable of. Given how Thalyssra is shitting her pants in the alpha scenario though, i'll go with her being strong enough to make quick work of the room.

Thrall? dude's clearly still exhausted from his fight with Garrosh. Who, mind you, was not actually empowered by the old god juice until partway through the fight, AFTER his fight with Thrall. Can't forget that he was unable to call on the elements there. Garrosh's dark shaman saw to that.

Gallywix? Relatively unknown, most likely on even footing with Gelbin.

Vol'jin. Kek.

Baine is an unknown, could be great, could be a laughing stock.

That leaves... Sylvanas? Moira, mind control that banshee for us will ya?

Realistically, there would have been casualties on both sides, but to think the horde walked out of that room with a win is just delusion of the highest degree. Baine and Sylvanas would have been the toughest opponents to take down for sure but they would have eventually fallen.

edit: Also, i cannot find anything about the Thalen thing. The closest they ever came was when he was at the gate in Theramore, and Pained knocked him out before either of them could throw a spell.

Second edit: Varian was winning against Garrosh during Wolfheart. They started on even footing but Garrosh was running out of steam while Varian's Lo'Gosh thingo was giving him infinite stamina. Varian SOUNDLY won this fight when he disarmed Garrosh and wounded him.. The tides of war fight was on even footing with a 'slight' advantage to Garrosh, but the fight was interrupted. Try again for a zeni?

[Aucald]

Although I don't think the assembled Alliance leaders would've been able to "dismantle the Horde" as Jaina put it at the culmination of SoO - as I've said before I think the end-result would've been a bunch of mutual kills that would leave both Horde and Alliance bereft of leadership, this is probably how I would think things would happen had the Alliance leaders somehow survived such an engagement and the Horde leaders did not.

Forsaken: Always on the fringes of the Horde in any case, the Forsaken would withdraw to the Undercity and likely a council like the Desolate Council in "Before the Storm" would assume the power vacuum left by Sylvanas. They would likely be pushed by Hillsbrad, Arathi, and Silverpine by encroaching Alliance forces (including a retaken Gilneas) but remain isolated in the Undercity and/or the Plaguelands. The threat of mutual mass destruction via Blight would probably stay the hand of the Alliance from a full-scale invasion for a time, but eventually the Forsaken themselves would die out due to no viable way to replenish their numbers.

Tauren: I doubt they'd ever join the Alliance if Baine were killed by the Alliance - they would instead go back to Mulgore and isolate themselves, withdrawing from more global politics in favor of their holdings in Kalimdor. It's not the Tauren nature to be belligerent, so they would probably be effectively Neutral toward the Alliance - aggressive only if their territories are encroached on.

Orcs: The remaining Orcs would probably melt into the shadows for the most part, splintering into a clan-like structure once more and building up their more far-flung settlements to assume a defensive posture. There may be a push for the Azerothian clans to return to Outland once more, or perhaps even find another world that they can occupy. The Alliance would probably commit much of its resources to hunting down the more unruly groups, but the Orcs would be too numerous and no longer stricken with the magical lethargy that made the internment camps possible post Second War.

Blood Elves: The Blood Elves would withdraw to Silvermoon and close their borders entirely. In time, they might actually open up friendly relations with the Alliance. The death of Lor'themar would be a pretty strong sticking point for many, though; so I imagine a formal alliance would be a long time coming.

Goblins: The Bilgewater cartel, not having a strong loyalty to Gallywix, would probably return to neutrality and function an unaligned trade cartel once more. Goblins are a pragmatic sort, after all. They would probably extend distrust toward the Alliance going forward, but nothing that would make them subject to reprisals.

Trolls: The Darkspear would probably take the death of their leader hard. Rokhan would probably take over the reins of the tribe and would, likely out of fear of possible reprisals, align himself with Zandalar and take up the deal that Rastakhan offered Vol'jin (in exchange for intelligence the Horde once had on the Alliance and other matters). The Darkspear would disappear into the shadows, preparing for a time to strike back at the Alliance once their guard is down.

Houjin Pandaren: They would return to either Pandaria or Shen-zin Su, bringing with them a strong distrust and dislike for the Alliance. Whether or not this would effect the undercurrent of greater Pandaren sentiment I can't really say. They don't seem to have the strongest connection to the Horde as-is, so likely they would be largely unaffected by its dismantling.

[Octavius]

Everyone dies, years after the Alliance spends taking thunder bluff alone , (and let’s say they win) there’s no Guldan, which means no legion, which also means no one to stop Sarg from nabbing Eonar. In the end everyone dies.

Most likely this.
But careful, you're quoting anduin, beliving would take years to take thunder bluff alone. "Never confirmed elsewhere" (even if clearly reasonable and stated by a prominent lore figure), usually the method people use in this forum to push their opinions, as "facts"

[Friendlyimmolation]

Most likely this.
But careful, you're quoting anduin, beliving would take years to take thunder bluff alone. "Never confirmed elsewhere" (even if clearly reasonable and stated by a prominent lore figure), usually the method people use in this forum to push their opinions, as "facts"

I’m fairly certain both Varian and Wrathin said similar things.

Also as Aucald said , I doubt many races would so readily join the alliance if their leaders were killed , the blood elves would be beyond furious, so would the Tauren etc adding more time to a war.

[Octavius]

I’m fairly certain both Varian and Wrathin said similar things.

Also as Aucald said , I doubt many races would so readily join the alliance if their leaders were killed , the blood elves would be beyond furious, so would the Tauren etc adding more time to a war.

I'm pretty certain too, but chris metzen himself never CLEARLY stated that, so is "open to interpretion". Sometime is open to interpretation in that case even. Anyway, putting bad behaviors on forums aside, is the most likely scenario. The problem with taking one capital in multi racial-core territories factions is pretty much this. Try taking stormwind, what about taking ironforge?

[Clone]

And what heavyweights did the horde have with them? Thrall, who got his ass completely trounced by Garrosh before the fight. Baine, who is for all intents and purposes a warrior of relatively unknown skill. Vol'jin, can he really be called a powerhouse when nameless felgrunt #1047 took him down?. Lor'Themar, relatively even with Jaina(No, your "elves superior hur dur" does not count here, because they are not). That leaves... Sylvanas? The horde also had no soldiers present in the cutscene and only a measly 4 outside of it. Oh, and some random ass goblin, likely the previous model for the forgettable obese goblin.

The alliance? Moira, Jaina, Varian, Gelbin, Tyrande, Anduin and at least 14 soldiers present just outside the cinematic (10 more than horde).

For all intents and purposes, the horde would be kinda screwed. So... yeah.

Edit: For some reason i thought Lol'themar was a mage. turns out he is a measly farstrider. The horde really do lack any powerhouses there now.

I hope you are kidding. Of all the Alliance members there the only heavy hitter is Jaina, followed by Varian (who also got taken down by random felguards) and Tyrande. Gelbin is useless without his mech, Moira has no combat feat, and Anduin has been stated to suck at combat in various occasions.

Meanwhile Horde has Thrall, the most powerful shaman and a decent gladiator prior to that. Sylvanas is a seasoned vet and has proven her abilities in her one on one with Genn. They also have Baine, who is Garrosh's equal if not superior.