Varian Jaina and what could have been?

[Clone]

So you're just going to still ignore that it actually showed Thrall not being able to use his shaman abilities in a cutscene RIGHT before we faced down Garrosh?

His casting was interrupted, you'd know if you didn't ignore the cutscene.

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The rest of what you said was... hard to read.

But this, if this was the case then Thrall would have been able to use his shaman powers against Garrosh but he could not because the effect was still in play. If a fight broke out in Garrosh's throne room, the best Thrall could do is swing his hammer. The elements were unable to answer his call. Garrosh says this right before they fight, long after the dark shaman are dead.

Translation: I can't refute anything Clone said.

Also see above for Thrall.

[Hyral]

I would say Warcraft died with Vanilla.

I find MoP to be a decent stand in for WC4.

[Ithekro]

Dismantling the Horde doesn't mean destroying everyone, it just means disbanding the Horde as a separate power from the Alliance. The logical proposal, which seems to be more where Varian would go with it, rather than Jaina at that moment, is to basically talk down Thrall and then Vol'jin into breaking up the Horde and offering those races that want to join the Alliance an open hand.

Basically end the pointless wars by uniting all the factions under one roof....which would be a better way to deal with the eventual return of the Legion. Which they knew would come eventually. A united Azeroth might even have pooled resources and went on the offensive as Velen and the others finished warships and other vessels to take the war to the Legion, as was the plan. Rebuilt Tempest Keep and the other ships and go hunting for demons.....go looking the Army of the Light and take the war to Argus, like we eventually did anyway, just with less forces, and only one smaller ship.

[Unholyground]

Varian was totally into Sylvanas, they would have united the factions if he had not died.

[Mehrunes]

Ahh right, so we're twisting things now with famous horde bias. Gotchya.

Screaming bias while you offer no real argument is not something you can replace your lack of arguments with. It's what you flail around about if you want to look laughable.

Jaina's power, who can say what she is capable of. Given how Thalyssra is shitting her pants in the alpha scenario though, i'll go with her being strong enough to make quick work of the room.

Thalyssra is shitting her pants moments after the Horde team escaped from a part of the city with magic dampeners. In the end Jaina achieves nothing against a group of five, with whole garrison of Stormwind at her disposal. And one can easily say what she's capable of. Her spell that was explicitly stated to have all her might poured into it did nothing against a random Blood Elf mage.

Thrall? dude's clearly still exhausted from his fight with Garrosh. Who, mind you, was not actually empowered by the old god juice until partway through the fight, AFTER his fight with Thrall. Can't forget that he was unable to call on the elements there. Garrosh's dark shaman saw to that.

Yeah, if you ignore the weapon granted him by Y'Shaarj. Then sure. And Thrall outright repelled the Dark Shamanism' block and called thunder to him, proclaiming he's never alone.

Gallywix? Relatively unknown, most likely on even footing with Gelbin.

Except he was seen fighting quite well even outside of his suit in the Blank Scroll story. Gelbin has no equivalent spotlight to base your claim on.

Vol'jin. Kek.

A Shadow Hunter of some caliber. Also, given how you're dismissing him based on him being killed by random Felguard (and ignoring the fact that Horde's position was blasted by three Legion spaceships moments earlier), good job dismissing Varian too.

Baine is an unknown, could be great, could be a laughing stock.

His strength alone is a boon over Alliance melee fighters.

That leaves... Sylvanas? Moira, mind control that banshee for us will ya?

Given Undead's immunity to that, good luck with mind controlling her. And good luck casting any spells while silenced. She silenced Dar'khan when he had all the power of the Sunwell just for himself. She can silence Moira who hasn't shown any actual combat prowess.

Realistically, there would have been casualties on both sides, but to think the horde walked out of that room with a win is just delusion of the highest degree. Baine and Sylvanas would have been the toughest opponents to take down for sure but they would have eventually fallen.

A notion you supported with jack shit, imagine that.

edit: Also, i cannot find anything about the Thalen thing. The closest they ever came was when he was at the gate in Theramore, and Pained knocked him out before either of them could throw a spell.

Pained knocked him out after Jaina threw a spell. I'm not sure what you read, but it wasn't source based on Tides of War. The narration explicitly stated that Jaina used all of her might for the spell.

Second edit: Varian was winning against Garrosh during Wolfheart. They started on even footing but Garrosh was running out of steam while Varian's Lo'Gosh thingo was giving him infinite stamina. Varian SOUNDLY won this fight when he disarmed Garrosh and wounded him.. The tides of war fight was on even footing with a 'slight' advantage to Garrosh, but the fight was interrupted. Try again for a zeni?

Yeah, Wolfheart. What do you mean "progressively" means? They fought three times. Varian performed worse with each fight. In the last one Garrosh was clearly winning.

Thrall couldn't use his shaman abilities in the room, remember that. He's a good warrior, but at this point Jaina has that thunder king infused staff with which she could probably kill most of the horde in there.

Thrall broke through the Dark Shamanism blockade, he got smashed in melee by Garrosh wielding Xala'toh and juiced up on Y'Shaarj ooze. And Jaina has no Thunder King anything. Jaina drained Lei Shen's throne room based on incorrect rumors that his source of power was there. Whereas Lei Shen's source of power was in Lei Shen. And got consumed by Wrathion.

Jaina is extremely op, don't believe me? look at the recent stormwind scenario for BfA.

You mean her failure to apprehend a band of five, with the entire Stormwind garrison to aid her?

[Enkrypt]

Yeah, i figure you kinda fit my sig perfectly. It's kinda why you cannot be taken seriously here. Thanks for pointing it out

You do realize your signature fits you perfectly if you change Sylvanas to Varian and FBI to Sex Offender's, right?

You keep reliving that moment in time where Garrosh/Y'shaarj KO'd Thrall. Well, sorry, but we burned your World Tree to the ground, and your last King is dead. Come BFA, the Alliance will learn how truly fucked they are being led by a sissy-boy Prince.

Sylvanas and Saurfang could easily turn the tide themselves against your... lol... "powerhouses".

[Mehrunes]

So you're just going to still ignore that it actually showed Thrall not being able to use his shaman abilities in a cutscene RIGHT before we faced down Garrosh?

Except that's explicitly not what happens. Thrall ends up powering through the block.

The rest of what you said was... hard to read.

But this, if this was the case then Thrall would have been able to use his shaman powers against Garrosh but he could not because the effect was still in play. If a fight broke out in Garrosh's throne room, the best Thrall could do is swing his hammer. The elements were unable to answer his call. Garrosh says this right before they fight, long after the dark shaman are dead.

That's not what happens. Seriously, is remembering an event that lasts maybe 90 seconds so hard to remember? Thrall uses thunder-based attack to dispel the shadow energy and proclaims he's never powerless and never alone.

[Goldielocks]

The extreme irony here is that in that same 5.4 end cinematic, Varian stops Thrall from crushing Garrosh's head and essentially causing the entirety of WoD. So, enough with this "Alliance moral high ground" circle jerk because it's fucking stupid.

Both factions are fucked up. They both have a right to exist. Stop with this bullshit already.

[Clone]

You forgot to throw Velen into all the Alliance side? Alleria? Turalyon? All you have to do is get someone to challenge Sylvanas..... beat her and take over the Horde as war chief. Get Illian to come back and take over the Horde would be fun and a quirky story line....

Jaina was right about the horde with the current leadership and Garrosh's leadership. A horde led by Thrall would be a horde I think Jaina could live with maybe....

We're talking about SoO.

[Sparklelord]

So what next? No WoD since Varian would took Garrosh and executed him without trial. Sooner of later Burning Legion would returned to Azeroth. But instead of two factions who still fight each others there will be strong and powerful Alliance of 9 races - Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, Draenei, Worgen, Pandaren, Tauren and Blood Elves.

Almost forgot - no stupid BFA.

No WoD, no Legion.

More importantly, Legion might have happened but the chain of events that freed the Demon Hunters wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't have Illidan so it's probable that we'd have just died out.

[Mehrunes]

Agreed, she's a lot more powerful than people are giving her credit for.

Only with the Iris. She hasn't really excelled in combat without it (if by excelling one means getting stopped by Thrall even with a super-powerful artifact). At least from what we've seen. Complete failure against Thalen, freezing Aethas, having her Elemental kill 3 of his guards before they could react. I've seen someone mention her destroying one of the small floating necropoli during the Wrath pre-event, but even if that's true, compared to other spell casters on both sides, it's still not really that great. She always excelled at teleportation (and that seems to have been scaled down recently).

The Dark Shaman were already dead at that point, so who knows if he was still blocked from calling the elements there? Plus Garrosh did already have some old god powers, his axe didn't normally have eyeballs on it.

It didn't even blocked Thrall the moment Garrosh taunted him about it. Thrall powered through the block 5 seconds later. As for the axe, to clarify things for everyone included (not saying you in particular don't know that), the axe he used wasn't even just Gorehowl covered in Old God goop, it was a new axe made entirely from Old God goop after he discared Gorehowl in Pandaria.

Varian kek. I'd probably put my money on Vol'jin since he's both a great fighter and has his shadow hunter abilities plus training as a monk. Varian is a better fighter, but it doesn't mean much if Vol'jin just hexes him. In terms of fighting abilities, Varian probably isn't "that" superior anyway outside of his infinite stamina.

Blizzard scaled down on the Lo'gosh nonsense already by the time of start of MoP.

I agree that it's not cut and dry. The biggest players on each side are jaina and sylvanas. The main thing is that sylvanas can silence everyone, and the alliance is screwed. If that fails, it's pretty even overall. Jaina is extremely powerful but I can see her being an early target and having to deal with a shaman, shadow hunter and dark ranger all at once is probably pretty bad, even for her. If they take her down right away, the horde almost certainly wins that fight.

That's not even Sylvanas' thing. All Banshee's can silence. Sylvanas' scream is so strong it breaks bones and armor. While she buffs her allies. So all the Horde needed to to is wait for Sylvanas to scream once and then throw the helpless Alliance members into a mass grave and bury them alive.

[Ticj]

Except that's explicitly not what happens. Thrall ends up powering through the block.




That's not what happens. Seriously, is remembering an event that lasts maybe 90 seconds so hard to remember? Thrall uses thunder-based attack to dispel the shadow energy and proclaims he's never powerless and never alone.

...No he doesn't? When he gets void choked because he attempted to use it, he's able to dispel it but he still just charges him and get's his ass handed to him. Besides dispelling it he was unable to really use his shaman abilities at full power.

[Mehrunes]

The fight isn't one sided for sure, but it is heavily weighed in the alliance's favour. There would most definitely be casualties. But hey, if we're gonna go with your sylvanas thing, then we may as well go the full mile and have someone cast shackle undead on her before she can do a thing. We also cant forget that she is the kind of person who would rather retreat, which she likely would do.

Weirdly enough you have yet to describe the "how" of Alliance winning it in any detail. Also, there have been very few instances of shackling undead in lore. None were performed by a Shadow Priest like Moira or someone who needs Elune to babysit them like Tyrande (who doesn't have a standard set of Priest powers in general). That leaves you with Anduin who wasn't really that powerful at the time yet and didn't want the fight to go on. And Sylvanas always retreats only when necessary. Which wasn't the case at SoO.

And yeah, Thrall was powerless. He was never alone of course, he had his allies with him. Unless you're thinking he entered anime territory, but that is an entire can of worms that should stay out of this thread in all likelyhood.

If you deliberately ignore a part of the event, sure.

Either way, it would have been a bloodbath. HOWEVER, i do not think "dismantle the horde" would have come down to a fight. It would likely have come down to the Alliance threatening the Horde with death if they did not go through with their demands. Demands which, sadly, Baine, Vol'jin and Thrall would likely have followed, leaving Sylvanas to run away like Snidley Whiplash and Lol'themar to cave in because he had no other option.

Why would they? You do realize Alliance was losing the war, yes? And they won only when allying with the stark majority of the Horde that turned against Garrosh? And even then ended up ceding territory to the Horde? And Vol'jin et al may have not been warmongers like Garrosh, but they didn't like the Alliance. Vol'jin threatened the Alliance with getting resurrected by Sylvanas. He even wanted Garrosh to have the Divine Bell if it meant the Alliance wouldn't have it. After Garrosh tried to have him assassinated.

Really, if it came down to a fight, a lot of it would hinge on whether someone can shut down Sylvanas quick enough. Given the presence of 3 priests and a mage though, i'd have to say she does not really have a chance. If we go with her scream affecting everyone, it affects EVERYONE, including her allies. Silence would also in all likelyhood not last long enough to keep all 3 priests and the mage silenced long enough for her to roflstomp the entire alliance leadership. And lastly, Jaina could just spellsteal AMS.

But it doesn't affect everyone, just her enemies. Also, given Sylvanas' Elven reflexes and power boost from undeath, good luck with anyone reacting faster than her. And her silence lasted long enough on Dar'khan when he was effectively a Mage god. It'd have lasted long enough on Alliance. I mean, what is Jaina going to do with her magic? Turn into a pin cushion for Sylvanas' arrows, that's what. Same with Moira. Tyrande is technically adept at using a bow, but the last time she faced archers and Elune didn't wipe her ass, random Orcs almost killed her.

And as said above, the dark shaman died long before and his shaman powers were STILL sealed when he fought Garrosh. In this situation, Thrall has no access to them. (unless you wanna go anime, in which case EVERYONE gets to go anime)

Your memory is STILL selective as hell. Something something bias.

[Combatbutler]

You know what also could have happened, one of Azeroth's moons crashing into the planet killing everyone. There are so many unknown factors here it is nigh impossible to say how it would have turned out in the end.

[Mehrunes]

If we talking about reflexes i think Varian would cut off her head before she opened her mouth.

Varian can teleport now?

[Doffen]

Varian can teleport now?

2 charges of charge, insta-death

[Mehrunes]

...No he doesn't? When he gets void choked because he attempted to use it, he's able to dispel it but he still just charges him and get's his ass handed to him. Besides dispelling it he was unable to really use his shaman abilities at full power.

Lel at the goalpost movement. Also, he outright says he's not powerless and not alone after using the thunder based spell.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Varian can teleport now?

Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru

[Clone]

Doubtful, not only would he have to get through the other Horde leaders, but he seemingly has lost his Lo'gosh powers, or they don't work in non elven lands.

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I see, nothing quite like bragging that you can't handle opinions about a fictional character different than your own.

Even better when it seemingly triggers you so much that you equate Sylvanas to Hitler and say people should be on a FBI list, make sure not to trip and fall off your ego.

It's like the horseshoe theory but with Sylvanas instead of politics.

[Uoyredrum]

The fight isn't one sided for sure, but it is heavily weighed in the alliance's favour. There would most definitely be casualties. But hey, if we're gonna go with your sylvanas thing, then we may as well go the full mile and have someone cast shackle undead on her before she can do a thing. We also cant forget that she is the kind of person who would rather retreat, which she likely would do.

And yeah, Thrall was powerless. He was never alone of course, he had his allies with him. Unless you're thinking he entered anime territory, but that is an entire can of worms that should stay out of this thread in all likelyhood.

Either way, it would have been a bloodbath. HOWEVER, i do not think "dismantle the horde" would have come down to a fight. It would likely have come down to the Alliance threatening the Horde with death if they did not go through with their demands. Demands which, sadly, Baine, Vol'jin and Thrall would likely have followed, leaving Sylvanas to run away like Snidley Whiplash and Lol'themar to cave in because he had no other option.



Oooo, a horde supporter with a brain, i like you.

Really, if it came down to a fight, a lot of it would hinge on whether someone can shut down Sylvanas quick enough. Given the presence of 3 priests and a mage though, i'd have to say she does not really have a chance. If we go with her scream affecting everyone, it affects EVERYONE, including her allies. Silence would also in all likelyhood not last long enough to keep all 3 priests and the mage silenced long enough for her to roflstomp the entire alliance leadership. And lastly, Jaina could just spellsteal AMS.

And as said above, the dark shaman died long before and his shaman powers were STILL sealed when he fought Garrosh. In this situation, Thrall has no access to them. (unless you wanna go anime, in which case EVERYONE gets to go anime)

Sylvanas's scream buffs her allies and silences/damages her enemies. It's also probably a lot faster to scream than to cast a spell, and AMS can't be spellstolen. It's unlikely they'd shut her down that fast, especially if she turned invisible and screamed out of that, basically there's no way to stop it.