TBC surv talents/skills for BFA?

[bloodyaxe2018]

Late TBC surv was one of my favorite specs to play in the game. With the focus on individual class abilities being the focus again, I think Expose Weakness could make a huge come back.

- Expose Weakness: Your ranged criticals have 33/66/100% chance to apply an Expose Weakness effect to target. Expose Weakness increases the Attack Power of all attackers against that target by 25% of your Agility for 7 secs.
Deterrence, Wyvern Sting, Trap Mastery, Entrapment, and Resourcefulness were present here.
Human and Monster slaying, HP buffs, Melee buffs and it had great resource management through Thrill of the Hunt.

I think these elements would blend very well into the new Surv and EW would provide a great reason to use the class (though the skill will vary greatly from the previous one). This is all pre-Explosive Shot and it feels like those are the roots they are trying to get back to.

I miss the days of having Shivering Felspine and Black Bow of the Betrayer and skills to complement them each. Tho I may just be old and out of touch now.

[Luzkaz]

Expose Weakness could work in the new baf survival hunter kit. Mostly because it lacks any ability synergy or rotation out side of not capping focus.

[bloodyaxe2018]

Yeah, It's not like I expect a full talent tree return but the basis of the talent tree feels exactly like they are going for now.

Trap, Melee, and Survivability talents were found throughout the tree even though it was a Ranged class. Expose Weakness provided a great utility that was unique and with some fine tuning it could benefit the spec once again.

[Bepples]

There is nothing exciting or fulfilling about being entirely centred around a passive effect that buffs other people's DPS. That's why we got actual active and fresh mechanics to work with in the following expansion. SV in BC had nothing going for it and was highly generic, so Blizzard added to it. Why would we eschew that and go back to such a boring, bland spec?

[bloodyaxe2018]

There is nothing exciting or fulfilling about being entirely centred around a passive effect that buffs other people's DPS. That's why we got actual active and fresh mechanics to work with in the following expansion. SV in BC had nothing going for it and was highly generic, so Blizzard added to it. Why would we eschew that and go back to such a boring, bland spec?

Because now the melee and trap part can be a focus rather than something raiders ignored.

The spec was a generic utility spec because there was no place for hunters to use Melee back then. We're talking deadzone times here, in the hunters current state the theme of Surv would work much better with the new ideas they have shown for BFA.

[Bepples]

Because now the melee and trap part can be a focus rather than something raiders ignored.

So you are proposing doubling down on an unpopular weakness of the class, then. Raiders ignored that aspect because it was generic, bland, and unexciting. Turning it into a utilitarian ranged spec breathed life into the spec because it created an interesting niche and stopped trying to focus on one that frankly wasn't interesting. Going back and dredging up failed design paradigms is totally nonsensical. What are you trying to achieve? To turn Survival into the same abandoned and ridiculed spec it was in Vanilla/BC and now Legion? Is this some form of masochism? It's like trying to bring back horse-drawn carriages.

[bloodyaxe2018]

So you are proposing doubling down on an unpopular weakness of the class, then. Raiders ignored that aspect because it was generic, bland, and unexciting. Turning it into a utilitarian ranged spec breathed life into the spec because it created an interesting niche and stopped trying to focus on one that frankly wasn't interesting. Going back and dredging up failed design paradigms is totally nonsensical. What are you trying to achieve? To turn Survival into the same abandoned and ridiculed spec it was in Vanilla/BC and now Legion? Is this some form of masochism? It's like trying to bring back horse-drawn carriages.

You sound like you literally have no idea how surv was played in TBC, or hunters in general. Surv was a a top tier raid spec with great dps and utility. The talent tree had Melee and Trap focused talents throughout that were not used in a raid setting due to the limitation of mechanics at the time. The current surv spec supports Melee and Range in a way the game never did in 2008.

What is so hard to comprehend about a class that can use Melee, Traps and Range in synergy while providing a useful raid utility in an otherwise cramped melee crowd?

Fully ranged surv is gone. If that is your actual goal you should lobby for MM to offer multiple viable options through talents.

[Deleted]

Past expansion removed talents and abilities should be treated as possible candidates to flavour new mechanics and talents, not getting the exact same ability. The game moved on for a reason.

[bloodyaxe2018]

Past expansion removed talents and abilities should be treated as possible candidates to flavour new mechanics and talents, not getting the exact same ability. The game moved on for a reason.

It was removed for a revamp to explosive shot. Which is now far removed from surv and any of it's previous incarnations.

If BFA has the goal of getting away from class homogenization then bringing back unique class buffs would be right in line with that goal.

[Bepples]

You sound like you literally have no idea how surv was played in TBC, or hunters in general. Surv was a a top tier raid spec with great dps and utility. The talent tree had Melee and Trap focused talents throughout that were not used in a raid setting due to the limitation of mechanics at the time. The current surv spec supports Melee and Range in a way the game never did in 2008.

What is so hard to comprehend about a class that can use Melee, Traps and Range in synergy while providing a useful raid utility in an otherwise cramped melee crowd?

Fully ranged surv is gone. If that is your actual goal you should lobby for MM to offer multiple viable options through talents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gss2EPPsDZc&t=0m28s

Yeah, I'm really feeling the "melee focus" here... /s

No, you didn't use your fucking melee abilities in BC unless the game forced you to by having the enemy go within the minimum range. Hardly any of your talents buffed melee, and even when you took those your melee abilities were too weak to bother considering. They weren't interesting at all, either. Survival's real strengths were a) buffing the raid's DPS through Expose Weakness (no, this was not removed when Explosive Shot was added; it was reworked in WotLK but removed in Cata along with many raid buffs for all classes) and b) having better control and, well, survivability than the other two specs (i.e. kiting and CC). Note that it kept that second aspect up until Legion with the enhanced traps for PvP/control... it just didn't keep melee because melee was functionally and thematically worthless.

It was not a "top-tier raid spec" beyond the first Survival Hunter you brought to the raid because Expose Weakness didn't stack; Survival actually did far less DPS than BM and many other ranged specs but the trade-off was the DPS your raid gained from Expose Weakness... meaning it was utterly pointless and wasteful to bring more than one Survival Hunter in the raid. So basically, you did the same Steady Shot weaving the other two specs did but you also provided an entirely passive buff while doing so. Stop the fucking presses. Being turned into an actual independent ranged DPS is the best thing that ever happened to the spec. If you want to bring back debuffs like Expose Weakness; sure, maybe it's worth a try... but you must be out of your mind if you think you can build an interesting DPS spec around a passive debuff that buffed other people's DPS.

If the game is cramped with melee DPS, how the fuck does it make sense to turn a formerly pure ranged DPS spec into a melee spec or a "melee/ranged hybrid" (a.k.a. a melee spec with some ranged capability)? Your logic is ass-backwards. If we are crowded with melee, how is turning a ranged spec into a melee spec with some ranged abilities an improvement? If getting some ranged capabilities back is such an improvement, maybe it should get all its ranged capabilities back. You're right that I cannot comprehend how being half-melee and half-ranged is good for a spec that used to be able to do everything at ranged.

And no, I will not campaign for them to convolute yet another spec and fuck over its talent choices in a vain attempt to cram two specs in one just so the melee lovers can enjoy an entire spec just to themselves. I realise you people are desperate to deflect blame away from your broken mess of a spec but that isn't going to work. Melee Survival is the spec at fault and its the spec that needs to go. Fully ranged might still be gone but as far as I'm concerned the fact that Survival is getting some ranged capabilities back is a sign of progress. Maybe with more pressure we might finally see the day where they come out and say that "We tried something new and it didn't work out" and work towards a proper, enjoyable ranged spec again. Maybe, maybe not. It sure as hell will never happen if people like me don't keep up the pressure. I realise that's exactly the goal of people like you so I'm not going to buy into that. So quit trying to sell it.

[Cyanu]

- Expose Weakness: Your ranged criticals have 33/66/100% chance to apply an Expose Weakness effect to target. Expose Weakness increases the Attack Power of all attackers against that target by 25% of your Agility for 7 secs.

that is nearly impossible to balance in 5,10 and 25 man content. It can be a DPS increase just for you (and the tank whatever...) or it can be a DPS increase for you and another 5+ mellee (or other hunters)...

besides it's just a boring passive, why bother?

[Unholyground]

If you look at all the new group buffs they are adding to each class they all seem to all be passive when you use a certain ability or an aura/castable.