Confirmed: The Horde Are The Bad Guys

[Goldielocks]

People really overuse that word.

It's more like Alliance players who get off from being morally superior to the Horde. It's p funny actually.

[Sae]

Can't say I'm surprised. I was sort of expecting "buh it's all a big misunderstanding, the void did it!" but that'll probably be revealed (or retconned in) later.

Christie Golden says to not take everything as a fact. most likely scenario is that someone else burns down the damn tree and the horde gets the blame, starting the new war.

Why would the horde burn the tree if they can capture it? THINK!

If their intention is to claim all of Kalimdor then burning it makes more sense than capturing it. If Teldrassil was captured by the Horde, then the Alliance (specifically the Kaldorei) would stop at nothing to take it back, and even if they failed it would cost the Horde a lot of resources just to hold a tree that they don't really need. If it's destroyed the Alliance has no reason to try to take back it's ashes.

[Steelangel]

that made me lol

I don't know man.. all of the Eastern Kingdoms seem to be full of them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

lol @ sylvannas fanboys saying she isn't evil, I can't wait for the Horde to actually be a decent faction again

the horde lost any chance of being a decent faction went garrosh went evil for no reason, unless we get zandalari over lords to take charge the horde is screwed.

[ohwell]

Those treehuggers deserved whatever they get. They're race has done nothing but struggle over the 10,000 years they had to prepare for every legion invasion and they did nothing but get all hippy like.

Also another tree can be made, infact this tree iirc could also be corrupted by an old god and more can be made.


lol was just going to quote that... the most bullshit thing ive read today.

Not really, the one in NR only got corrupted because it breached Yogg's prison. If anything though it was another foolish thing the night elves did that endangered the world.

[Hitei]

Christie Golden says to not take everything as a fact. most likely scenario is that someone else burns down the damn tree and the horde gets the blame, starting the new war.

Why would the horde burn the tree if they can capture it? THINK!

Because its only real value is being the home of the Night Elves? It isn't in a strategic position (you'd literally have to sail your forces around Kalimdor to attack from it, and the enemy would have to sail around Kalimdor to attack it). It isn't fortified well to operate as anything other than living space, no race has a pressing interesting in living in a Night Elven tree, and it's quite far away from any other Horde settlement.

The better question is why wouldn't they burn it rather than having a long, drawn out siege for something they don't even want to hold?

That said, I'm pretty confused how anyone could not realize the Horde are the bad guys when they are being led by the person who personally ordered the plague and had it tested on both the scourge and the living, has no problem with slave labor and uses the enemy fallen as undead slaves before forcing them to serve her permanently or killing them a second time, has ordered the slaughter of civilians just minding their own business in their own homes and towns, and who made a deal with an evil watcher to enslave a good watcher's right hand and force her into churning out more Val'kyr for her continued immortality at the price of condemning those Val'kyr to the fate she was supposed to face.

Sylvanas is great, but holy shit. How much more does she need to do before people realize she's very firmly a bad guy?

[Goldielocks]

the horde lost any chance of being a decent faction went garrosh went evil for no reason, unless we get zandalari over lords to take charge the horde is screwed.

Coulda been fine if VOL'JIN DIDN'T DIE A BITCH ASS DEATH.

Fucking Blizzard trying to create tension they could have at least put some effort in.

lol I am so hyped for the Sylvannas raid, fuck that bitch

Regardless on whether she's evil or not, that sounds pretty boring. The only reason why I found SoO interesting was because it was in a capital city. The idea hadn't been done before.

[ohwell]

It's not confirmed until it's 2 weeks from going live. People really overuse that word.

And while I am myself very nervous about this, because they already did the "Horde are the bad guys" with Cataclysm-MoP and most Horde players hated it, and this time around it would have even less realism to say "oh it was just the Warchief, most of the Horde is fine", Golden and other devs have said some of the datamined broadcast stuff is inaccurate, and I can't see Blizzard sincerely going for the Cataclysm-MoP angle again after the backlash, especially when they are likely going to shift toward old gods mid-expansion.

I half expect they're doing everything they can to trick us - selectively letting novel extracts or datamined information into out hands to hide what's really going to happen. BFA itself was a big surprise after all the obvious Void connections we had going.

lol people really need to stop with this shit.

A HUGE percent that is often so close to all of lore content does not change on a PTR or a beta. About the only 2 changes in recent history that I can recall off the top of my head directly affecting lore changes were things like Wrathion in Highmountain and the change to the Vol'jin interaction in MoP with alliance.

Hell even a majority of non lore things change on a PTR other than slight number tweaks unless something is completely broken. So, yeah, just stop with nonsense of "amg it's the beta it's subject to change" because more often than not it doesn't and people have been proven wrong time and again about that. Yes things have changed after going live, but rarely or close to never does lore change.

[Goldielocks]

lol people really need to stop with this shit.

A HUGE percent that is often so close to all of lore content does not change on a PTR or a beta. About the only 2 changes in recent history that I can recall off the top of my head directly affecting lore changes were things like Wrathion in Highmountain and the change to the Vol'jin interaction in MoP with alliance.

Hell even a majority of non lore things change on a PTR other than slight number tweaks unless something is completely broken. So, yeah, just stop with nonsense of "amg it's the beta it's subject to change" because more often than not it doesn't and people have been proven wrong time and again about that. Yes things have changed after going live, but rarely or close to never does lore change.

What's your point? Blizzard can make this out to be something non faction related while not retconning it.

[Addict]

Christie Golden says to not take everything as a fact. most likely scenario is that someone else burns down the damn tree and the horde gets the blame, starting the new war.

Why would the horde burn the tree if they can capture it? THINK!

Thats what im thinking too, wouldnt be that big of a leap to assume that some characters will take an oppertunity that the conflict provides to further their own agendas while pinning the blame on others.

[ohwell]

Because its only real value is being the home of the Night Elves? It isn't in a strategic position (you'd literally have to sail your forces around Kalimdor to attack from it, and the enemy would have to sail around Kalimdor to attack it). It isn't fortified well to operate as anything other than living space, no race has a pressing interesting in living in a Night Elven tree, and it's quite far away from any other Horde settlement.

The better question is why wouldn't they burn it rather than having a long, drawn out siege for something they don't even want to hold?

That said, I'm pretty confused how anyone could not realize the Horde are the bad guys when they are being led by the person who personally ordered the plague and had it tested on both the scourge and the living, has no problem with slave labor and uses the enemy fallen as undead slaves before forcing them to serve her permanently or killing them a second time, has ordered the slaughter of civilians just minding their own business in their own homes and towns, and who made a deal with an evil watcher to enslave a good watcher's right hand and force her into churning out more Val'kyr for her continued immortality at the price of condemning those Val'kyr to the fate she was supposed to face.

Sylvanas is great, but holy shit. How much more does she need to do before people realize she's very firmly a bad guy?

Except she isn't. Most of the things you used were entirely either wrong or out of context.

Just about every great society in history used enemy combatants as slaves. So that doesn't make her evil.

Plenty of current governments have tested disease on living subjects, so while immoral, it wasn't evil. Evil is about intent not a lack of consideration. If she had just said "Oh I know the effects, I just want to do it for them to suffer" you might have a point.

I'd like a citation on the people just in their homes doing nothing.

The valkyr are for both her and her people and primarily her people since she hasn't really needed to use them that often and the ones she did use is more because she felt she could be reckless for her people(like in Legion running off solo).

Helya wasn't evil and Odyn was 100% evil. I'm sorry, but the only thing Helya is guilty of is being messed up for the rest of her existence by someone she thought was an ally and friend(Odyn) who knowingly condemned her to a life of eternal servitude(weird you called Sylvannas evil for having slaves when the one who made the valkyr one upped her there and did it to allies) and torment because she saw it was wrong and wanted no part in it. So bullshit that Helya is evil and Odyn is good and if anything we should have helped Helya to rehabilitate her rather than side with Odyn.

- - - Updated - - -

What's your point? Blizzard can make this out to be something non faction related while not retconning it.

Blizzard can also paint daisies all over Undercity's walls, but won't just like they won't change this. Stop with the nonsense. They are not "changing" anything.

[Nathasil]

The new Broadcast Text is a wrong track.

If Sylvanas REALLY meant what she says there, she has already given up Undercity+Silvermoon, since, you know, they are both an the wrong side of her "ocean border".

She would NEVER do that. And if she did, Blood Elves would leave the Horde instantly before leaving their beloved Sunwell to settle somewhere on Kalimdor. They cannot relocate to Suramar either, because there is no fucking well there anymore. They COULD in theory use the well ontop of Hyjal, but what would you think would be Lor'themar's + Liadrin's reaction if Slyvanas told them to leave their ancestral home to build something new atop of a mountain that is also one of the most sacred places of Druids (both factions!) on the entire planet? I suppose they would both tell Sylvanas to fuck herself. Hard.

So the entire premise is just bullshit. Also, we already KNOW from the pages of the book that were shown at Blizzcon that her primary target is STORMWIND. A target she obviously had for a very, very, VERY long time. This passage seems to have taken place before Azerite came into the picture, so you could argue Azerite made her change her plans....but seeing how Silvermoon alone totaly invalidates this "plan" and how long she has obviously planned for the destruction of Stormwind....how likely is that? I would say the chances are very, very small.

So my guess is: Sylvanas plans to sack Stormwind and turn ALL humans into Undead to save the future of her rotten kind. She KNOWS the rest of the Horde would not approve of this. So plunging the Horde into all out War is a great thing to make them do what she wants them to do (this also fits her desciption of the Orc family in the Book, which she clearly sees as nothing more than green meat). With Azerite at her disposal she now has the chance to not only start the war against Stormwind but also eradicate the Alliance on Kalimdor first, making her Fortress in Orgrimmar harder to attack. Or she simply wants as many dead as possible (on both sides) because she secretly is already collecting all the corpses and building her own, undead army behind the scenes.

Whatever her true intentions may be....it certainly is not to just move the border in the ocean. That really makes absolutely no sense. So in this situation she is clearly lying to the player/rest of the Horde to get their support.

[Steampunkette]

If they capture it they'd have to defend it against constant attacks by angry Night elves and their allies.

They don't need it, because they got all of Ashenvale and Northern Kalimdor for lumber anyway. So they eliminate it.

Arguable.

But there's something else to consider:

Burning Teldrassil down will create a new and massive reason for the Alliance to attack,

Conquering Teldrassil, with a military victory and conditional surrender, puts down on paper that there is a change of possession and a treaty.

And the Alliance tends to honor it's treaties.

I'm even closer to sure there'll be a third party destroying Teldrassil to try and get the Horde and Alliance in an all-consuming war. Probably Azshara/N'zoth.

[Nize]

lol people really need to stop with this shit.

A HUGE percent that is often so close to all of lore content does not change on a PTR or a beta. About the only 2 changes in recent history that I can recall off the top of my head directly affecting lore changes were things like Wrathion in Highmountain and the change to the Vol'jin interaction in MoP with alliance.

Hell even a majority of non lore things change on a PTR other than slight number tweaks unless something is completely broken. So, yeah, just stop with nonsense of "amg it's the beta it's subject to change" because more often than not it doesn't and people have been proven wrong time and again about that. Yes things have changed after going live, but rarely or close to never does lore change.

Speaking of which, it does crack me up that Blizz has NO idea what to do with Wrathion. They're desperately trying to fit him in somewhere and do something meaningful but they can't. He's put in, taken out. He does things, then quickly brushed away. I wonder if people remember that WoD happened because of this guy?

But I digress.

Horde isn't the bad guy. Its leaders are. One of the biggest things i dislike now about the storytelling is... despite the fact that I have supported us being Garrison and Order Hall leaders, is that we, as these big time hero/leaders, seem to have no influence on how things go within the Horde/Alliance despite being members of such. I, as a Horde player (I do play both though), don't really feel as if my characters would agree with the actions taken. My Earthen Ring shaman who has come to respect the Night Elven druids as he's fought the like of Ragnaros, wouldn't agree to burning down a symbolic tree for what? World conquest? I'd feel as though I'd have a say in such matters.

[Axerty]

the US are the bad guys too i guess.

[mickybrighteyes]

So nice to see all that alliance aggression seem to vanish and it's just horde acting first and being dubbed 'evil'.

Chance for some interesting development similar to watching the previous alliance crumble AND show a good bit of development for characters... more likely it's just going to be Sylvanas is evil and attacking first. Much like how Theremore was viewed in MoP... Everyone ignored how Theremore was being used as the base of operations for all the conflicts in the Barrens moving in towards Stonetalon because OMG a bomb got dropped. But this time around we probably aren't even getting any amount of justification unless there's some pre-BfA shit to surprise us with (not likely)

[Goldielocks]

Blizzard can also paint daisies all over Undercity's walls, but won't just like they won't change this. Stop with the nonsense. They are not "changing" anything.

None of that matters. Blizzard can easily spin the story any way they wish. Nothing is being changed.

You're arguing semantics if anything.

Horde isn't the bad guy. Its leaders are.

The only evil leaders would be Sylvanas and Gallywix. All of the others are just there to follow orders. Bane and Saurfang are quite honorable too.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Coulda been fine if VOL'JIN DIDN'T DIE A BITCH ASS DEATH.

Fucking Blizzard trying to create tension they could have at least put some effort in.
Regardless on whether she's evil or not, that sounds pretty boring. The only reason why I found SoO interesting was because it was in a capital city. The idea hadn't been done before.

Vol’jin has always been a bottem tier troll in happy he’s dead.

[derpkitteh]

Horde has been Bad Guys since the very beginning. Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 2, to Cata,Mop,and now with BFA.

i wish idiots would understand the difference between horde and burning legion.

this faction war bullshit can't die soon enough. it's done with, it's stupid, it's idiotic. anyone that likes it is basically a subhuman troglodyte.

[Addict]

i wish idiots would understand the difference between horde and burning legion.

this faction war bullshit can't die soon enough. it's done with, it's stupid, it's idiotic. anyone that likes it is basically a subhuman troglodyte.

just for the record, i love that insult everytime i hear it, too rarely these days.