The Big Lie - by Normal Dungeoneering

[Deleted]

I've just finished running the first higher level dungeon after the whole "scaling the world" happened. It just happened to be Blackrock Caverns. The group was decent, we at least remembered some of the mechanics, and only wiped twice on some trash before reading up that we had to stack to share the damage from the meteor abilities they did.
All in all, it took us over 30 minutes to finish the dungeon. A normal dungeon...

Now, if i didn't know better at this point i'd be inclined to think that if this is NORMAL, then heroic must be insanely difficult!
So move forward to level 110, a player queues for a random heroic aaaaand...it's NOTHING like they imagined...it's trivial at best. Even lower mythic+s take less time to complete.

Now i'm no genius, but how can this be normal?....

[Deleted]

The ilvl of your parties gear, artifacts, legendaries, having all abilities and talents, people being far more competent with their class at max level than leveling, legion dungeons by their very design are basically 1 long corridor with no detours, 110 dungeons aren't affected by the new scaling introduced in last patch.

There's a few reasons

[Twdft]

a player queues for a random heroic aaaaand...it's NOTHING like they imagined...it's trivial at best

Just take a look at the ilvl of your fellow heros. Legion heroics are tuned to a group of ~810 players with about 5 traits in their artifact weapon and no legendaries.

[Deleted]

Just take a look at the ilvl of your fellow heros. Legion heroics are tuned to a group of ~810 players with about 5 traits in their artifact weapon and no legendaries.

Uhmm no, even heroics have been buffed. They require 825.

[ydraw]

Uhmm no, even heroics have been buffed. They require 825.

They only require that to queue, you can do them with lower ilvl if you walk to the dungeon. And they would still be very easy.

[Deleted]

Uhmm no, even heroics have been buffed. They require 825.

Which is ~100 ilvls lower than relinquished gear or lfr loot in antorus gives. Pretty much anyone doing legion heroics is well over 100 ilvls higher than heroic dungeons are designed for, even a freshly boosted 110 starts with 870 gear.

You do not outgear leveling dungeons while leveling.

[Twdft]

Uhmm no, even heroics have been buffed. They require 825.

And you still will be the only one with 825 gear while everyone else is 900+ and inevitably plows through it like a hot knife through butter autoattacking.

[darklogrus]

The ilvl of your parties gear, artifacts, legendaries, having all abilities and talents, people being far more competent with their class at max level than leveling, legion dungeons by their very design are basically 1 long corridor with no detours, 110 dungeons aren't affected by the new scaling introduced in last patch.

There's a few reasons

Even in the beginning those Normal Legion Dungeons were very quick an easy, even a couple weeks after gearing up Mythic0 was a cake walk.

[Deleted]

Even in the beginning those Normal Legion Dungeons were very quick an easy, even a couple weeks after gearing up Mythic0 was a cake walk.

Again, legion dungeons by design are far shorter, there is less trash, no detours, less distance between bosses, you have all talents and abilities, artifacts, legendaries and legion dungeons did not and still do not have the new scaling changes from last patch.

[Nnyco]

probably because the hard difficulty is mythic+ and not heroic?

during leveling youre pretty much on par with ilvl requirement for the dungeon, right now you got a group full of 930-70s doin a dungeon for 810, go figure

not to mention that blackrock caverns is definitly overtuned

[Marrilaife]

Do you have 100ilvls more on your gear that the dungeon drops during levelling? Nope. But at max level, people do have it. So of course it's out of whack. Doesn't help Blizzard added daily 30 fragments for your next leggo for heroic dungeon queue, so players don't run it because they need gear (ofc they don't), but for these stupid legendary fragments.

It's the same problem with LFR - Blizzard adds incentives for overgeared players to go there instead of tuning it around only gearing up players without luring high ilvls into it. People report that some bosses are really really slow or outright hit berserk in lfr if by some chance no high ilvl players are present and the group consists of minimal ilvl to queue players.

Heroic dungeons lost their purpose when they drop 865 items but solo content on Argus drops 895 from world quests and 910 from argunite vendor. It only exists as a daily chore for these legendary fragments. You want to see proper dungeon experience try something around mythic +10 ~ +15 (depending on group's ilvl).

[Deleted]

Have you not read what the issue is? Is the way the dungeons are called - normal dungeons.
When you see 2 difficulties - normal and heroic, which one should be harder?
There is no reason for normal dungeons to be more difficult than heroic dungeons. Yes, your gear while leveling sucks compared to the ability to outgear content, but that's exactly the issue.

[Zka]

I haven't been to BRC since the scaling patch. Some instaces are severely overtuned since the patch (especially on mob health) and I guess they will retune them soon. The only cataclysm dungeon I've seen was Grim Batol which was completely trivial and very fast - probably undertuned.

[Deleted]

I've just finished running the first higher level dungeon after the whole "scaling the world" happened. It just happened to be Blackrock Caverns. The group was decent, we at least remembered some of the mechanics, and only wiped twice on some trash before reading up that we had to stack to share the damage from the meteor abilities they did.
All in all, it took us over 30 minutes to finish the dungeon. A normal dungeon...

Now, if i didn't know better at this point i'd be inclined to think that if this is NORMAL, then heroic must be insanely difficult!
So move forward to level 110, a player queues for a random heroic aaaaand...it's NOTHING like they imagined...it's trivial at best. Even lower mythic+s take less time to complete.

Now i'm no genius, but how can this be normal?....

It's because you don't overgear the content. Simple as that.

You can see it in M+. Do the same difficulty of the same dungeon with differently geared ppl. Not only the difference in skill will distinguish your experience, but the amount of healing/dps output too. Better gear, better timer.

[Pooti]

Are there heroic leveling dungeons though? I thought they were just called "dungeons" at that point.

[Super Kami Dende]

It's not really surprising, Scaling has shown this to be the case long before 7.3.5. Like it being faster and easier to healer a M+5 than it is to heal some people through a Wrath Timewalking Dungeon.

[Marston]

Have you not read what the issue is? Is the way the dungeons are called - normal dungeons.
When you see 2 difficulties - normal and heroic, which one should be harder?
There is no reason for normal dungeons to be more difficult than heroic dungeons. Yes, your gear while leveling sucks compared to the ability to outgear content, but that's exactly the issue.

The heroic dungeons are harder than normal dungeons. Enemies have more HP, deal more damage and sometimes have additional skills. The problem is that people who vastly outgear them do heroic dungeons but not normal ones. So while you have a proper challenge in normal dungeons due to not playing togther with people who outgear said content, you would also get a proper challenge in heroic dungeons - which would be harder than their normal counterpart - if people who vastly outgear it would stop queueing for them.

But that won't happen.

[Deleted]

The heroic dungeons are harder than normal dungeons. Enemies have more HP, deal more damage and sometimes have additional skills. The problem is that people who vastly outgear them do heroic dungeons but not normal ones. So while you have a proper challenge in normal dungeons due to not playing togther with people who outgear said content, you would also get a proper challenge in heroic dungeons - which would be harder than their normal counterpart - if people who vastly outgear it would stop queueing for them.

But that won't happen.

Why would someone run normal dungeons instead of heroic? Daily heroic gives Wakening Essence, normal dungeon gives nothing. People don't queue for heroic looking for the challenge, it's because it's 210 wakening essences a week. Before that, it was because of the AP.

[Marston]

Why would someone run normal dungeons instead of heroic? Daily heroic gives Wakening Essence, normal dungeon gives nothing. People don't queue for heroic looking for the challenge, it's because it's 210 wakening essences a week. Before that, it was because of the AP.

And that's the thing he is referring to. Normal dungeons are harder because no one outgearing them is queueing for them. But once you can enter Heroic dungeons, they are actually easier than the normal dungeons you did before because suddenly you get grouped together with people who totally smash the place due to outgearing it.

[Gaidax]

Uhmm no, even heroics have been buffed. They require 825.

Whoa that's some insane requirements right there, I hope people are able to handle that. Blizz going out of hand!