AU Draenor is in our timeline?

[Qualia]

This would be a pretty big plot hole, seeing as the Legion could just take over AU Azeroth while we're not there defending it, or AU Azeroth could spawn a Void Titan.

I also distinctly remember being told "Don't worry about AU Azeroth." Not "We have no plan for it." And if AU Draenor is in the same timeline, it would not be difficult for that same Void Titan to reach AU Draenor and therefore our universe.

It still doesn't make any sense. If there are infinite universes, why does Sargeras insists on attack this Azeroth universe, where we have defeated him like 3 times? Why doesn't he just corrupt the AU-Azeroth, make a Dark Titan and fuck up the Void Lords?

Are also the Void Lords just 1 across the multiverse or we have one set of Void Lords per universe?

Why can't be the true reason "a mage did it", so we can sleep tight and not have any time-travellin multi.versing nightmares?????

They still have to face many same issues with AU Azeroth as MU Azeroth, though - namely, the needs of being summoned over instead of being able to come by themselves. It isn't something easy. They basically need that Azeroth to be advanced enough to have someone to open a wide enough portal to summon them, but also weak enough for everyone else to be unable to detect and foil that plan. Seeing that the Legion - presumably - don't have Aman'thul / the Bronze Dragonflight's power of having perfect clarity over the past and future, looking for one suitable world among infinite amount of them might take more than a few decades. Not to mention that even if they manage to invade, those AU Azeroths would have their own defense as well - which might or might not be as powerful as us, we don't know about that.

There is also the issue of having a proper invading force - the Legion aren't "infinite" as they tend to brag, they have a fixed number (which could be thousands, hundred thousands or millions, but not literally infinite) of troops and leaders. Communicating and seducing mortals with power is one thing, being physically there is another. The troops they use to attack one Azeroth wouldn't be able to attack another Azeroth at the same time, so it wouldn't be too strange if they only focus their effort on a few Azeroth at most - after all, they still have other worlds to destroy, not just our planet. It took them roughly 10,000 years to found their way back to MU Azeroth again (and might not even be able to start the invasion in Legion if Kairoz didn't create the link between AU Draenor and MU Azeroth, allowing them to get AU Gul'dan over to present MU), which is, like, million(s) of years in their time. It's not like they can just zerg rush Azeroths one after another.

Still, it's true that they have been trying to invade at least one or two other Azeroths, if not more. For example, the AU Kalecgos in "War Crimes" mentioned Aveena sacrificing herself, so we know that there was a Sunwell in that AU at the very least, which means likely an Well of Eternity and The Sundering, and likely a Sunwell invasion from the demons as well - just might or might not be led by KJ himself. Vandel, upon getting the vision of the multiverse after infusing a demon's soul into his own, also saw the Legion assaulting many worlds in the multiverses. Seeing that AU Azeroth of that AU Kalecgos presumably still standing, it's fair to assume that the alternate version of Azerothian forces did well in defeating the Legion. While it's true that our Azerothian force is strong as our history forged us into this, I think it's a bit hasty to assume other Azeroths would be helpless by default just because they didn't get to experience as many important events as us.

I know it makes the Legion seem pretty weak compared to what they are made to be, as it would mean they have failed more than just three times in invading Azeroths, but it isn't a plot hole per se.

In regards to Azeroth, this is what they said:

Q: I still get the same question over and over again -- is there an alternate Azeroth to go with the alternate Draenor?
A: Yes!

Q: Are we going to see it?
A: I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

In regards to the Void Lord, as per Unheilvoll's query, I assume they are singular entities like demons as well seeing that they resides in the Void, and the Void also exists outside realities (which is, the physical universes in WoW term).

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I loved the movie, as our chinese overlords did.

The problem with WOD was its execution, no its premise.

Opinions count on both sides.

Cheers

[Aquamonkey]

why can't there be an AU Argus?

There is a WoD-Argus, it's where the WoD-Draenei/eredar came from.

"Thousands of year ago, the demons of the Burning Legion came to our homeworld and offered our leaders a great gift. Two of them, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde, saw the wisdom in their offering, but the last leader, Prophet Velen, refused. He and his followers fled from that world, forever hunted by those who once offered their hands in friendship."

[Fyersing]

Got a link? Never seen anything mentioning that. Though it wouldn't surprise me, the twitter account kind of goes off the rails sometimes and isn't really the will of the creative team.

My headcanon has always been that AU Draenor was ripped into our timeline, rather then us traveling to their timeline. Here are the base reasons...

1) It does a better job of explaining how the demons we fight are said to be "our" demons (AKA MU Archimonde), rather then the silly throwaway mention that demons somehow exist in all timelines. Shouldn't this mean there are like infinite Archimondes and such? demons don't start out demons, they become them, and thus if becoming a demon makes you now exist in all timelines, then they really would be infinite.

2) It explains why the orcs still ended up building the Dark Portal in the same exact spot in Tanaan Jungle as they did in the MU, as they are still utilizing the same rift that has existed in some form since WC1. They just hijacked it using Gul'dan's power, as otherwise they would have needed someone powerful on the other side (AKA Medivh) to complete the stable rift formation. They didn't need that since the rift was already there, and has been for a long time, even if weakened.

3) It prevents the absurdity of having "Alternates" of everything in the cosmos. By bringing Draenor to our timeline, they effectively are now part of our space, and thus exist in our space. We won't have issues of multiple titans, multiple azeroth's, multiple argus's, multiple void horrors, etc. Since our Draenor was blown up and flung into the Twisting Nether, the space it once existed is open for alternate draenor to just be plopped in and nothing needs to change.

4) It explains why they are still around at all. Let's be real here, as much as Nozdormu may have been weakened after the fall of Deathwing, we know he still has a ton of powers over time (as he later becomes an Infinite), and after the threat of the Iron Horde was ended, he likely would put all his power into severing the connection between our timeline and that of the alternate much like he did in the Thrall novel and it's alternate timelines. The fact that they keep implying that WoD Draenor is around to stay, makes me feel this is more then just a time connection.

In the end, it's up to Blizzard, but it just fits way better this way then much of the narrative gymnastics they attempted to explain away other oddities.

P.S. Ah I see it was mentioned by Alex. I love Alex, but one thing to note is that Alex isn't exactly the end all when it comes to the creative beats of WarCraft. Remember that scene in Stonetalon with Garrosh in which he is noble? That was what Alex wanted to do with him, but the other creative heads at Blizzard had other plans for him, and the disconnect has caused one of the most glaring mistakes in the game narrative.

It is this presentation that is supported in-game, so it is this presentation I choose to believe is the more accurate one -- developers have guffawed in the past, when it comes to narrative choices, so until it actually exists in the game I think it should be suspect (i.e. Chris Metzen: "Isn't Falstad dead? ...from, uh, Day of the Dragon? ...No?").

[Qualia]

It WOULD be a plot hole.

Basically, we have our Archimonde, preparing to invade a new Azeroth which should be equally as powerful as our old one. Without the combined forces of Horde and Alliance, with Human kingdoms still warring, and (presumably) with Sargeras-infested-Medivh still sitting on it basically wondering "Well wtf is taking so long huh?" Whereas we have our Azeroth, with the combined forces of a world that has learned to work together, with heroes built to take on the entire Legion.

Yet, instead of sending Gul'dan to AU Azeroth (Which we know Archimonde could do, because why would it be any different than sending him to OUR Azeroth) to kickstart the Legion invasion of Azeroth, he sends him to OUR Azeroth - The one that has been gearing up for a Legion invasion since the last failed Legion invasion, with a mostly-unified Horde and Alliance (as it wasn't until the Broken Shore that they started looking to kill each other again) ready to stand against them.

They literally screwed themselves. Repeatedly. Across multiple universes. As the SAME PEOPLE who did the EXACT SAME THING last time. None of this makes sense. Not in the slightest bit. Especially with what we know from Legion - For all intents and purposes, why can't they get AU Argus to destroy the multiverse, seeing as if there's an AU Draenor, and an AU Azeroth, why can't there be an AU Argus? Which we aren't currently stopping Sargeras from corrupting as we just did with the MU Argus.

A plot hole is something in the plot that can't be explained logically according to the story. The Legion being stupid isn't one as they have been shown to be that (or arrogant at best) more than just a few times, so it wouldn't be a plot hole - otherwise, we'd have a bunch of "plot holes" in fictions in form of Plot-Induced-Stupidity when a villain (or hero) decided to be stupid and not use his winning move until it's too late.

Additionally, sending AU Gul'dan to AU Azeroth IS different from sending him to our MU Azeroth. All the portals back and forth between present (and for that matter, it was present Archimonde and not past Archimonde in WoD, for clarification just in case) were done that easily during WOD thanks to the connection between present MU and past AU Draenor that Kairoz made. Garrosh made use of that connection to create his Dark Portal linked to our (replacing the previous link between Outland & Azeroth in process), Gul'dan used of that connection to summon Archimonde with no outside help. Did you think they could do that by themselves? On the other hand, sending Gul'dan to AU Azeroth would be the same as sending anyone from MU Draenor to MU Azeroth. If they could do it that easily, Kil'Jaeden would have done so without the need of Medivh opening the connection from our side.

Lastly, I would also like to bring up the fact that other than during Legion expansion, all our victories were made thanks to unexpected artifacts that aren't available anymore. It's not like there are a bunch of Dragon Souls laying around for Malfurion to reverse the summoning, or there are multiple World Tree and millions of wisps to distract Archimonde and explode upon them, or a number of Sunwell ready to sacrifice itself to push back KJ, or we get the force of an entire world (Draenor) empowering us every time on Azeroth. From their arrogant point of view, it isn't too far off if they consider all our victories were by chance. Pure-power wise, the only time we were more powerful was during Legion. They always had the upper-hand until we whipped out our DeMs. Can you blame them for underestimating us?

Yeah, so that means AU Argus, with it's world soul, could literally step through onto Azeroth with no warning and wipe out our entire universe. Because we're not currently stopping it from being corrupted, and I'd be hard pressed to believe it isn't being corrupted by something right now. (Not the coven, seeing as demons are one of a kind apparently... Which further breaks down the explanation, because multiple Argus' and multiple Draenei, but only one Archimonde and Kil'jaeden...)

How would it get to Azeroth? Much less our Azeroth? If it's taking thousands of years (the Legion decided that it would take more than that to reach Azeroth), why would we care? What if Argus has become more of a demon than a pure Titan, like Sargeras, after all the corruption and torment, and already turned into a singular entity? And why are you assuming the AUs are all hopeless without us? What if there are other heroes just as powerful as us arise in those worlds? How about the Titans themselves, as it's doubtful Sargeras would be going to infinite universes to kill the Pantheon infinite times? There are plenty of possible explanations Blizzard can make up to render that worry moot if they want to.

[Deleted]

This would be a pretty big plot hole, seeing as the Legion could just take over AU Azeroth while we're not there defending it, or AU Azeroth could spawn a Void Titan.

I also distinctly remember being told "Don't worry about AU Azeroth." Not "We have no plan for it." And if AU Draenor is in the same timeline, it would not be difficult for that same Void Titan to reach AU Draenor and therefore our universe.

Multivers theory would mean there an infinite Azeroth's many one which will have all ready spawned a void titan as on some the old God's would have beaten the titans. When it comes to infinite universe's all possibilities no matter how improbable will have happened which is why fekless author's are so drawn to the concept even though it takes a truly great writer to make a clean enough to not cause headaches.

Some advice for author's.
Unless your writing skills are up to the caliber of the greatest authors of mankind it's a good rule to leave time travel, paradoxes and multiverses well alone.

If I was blizz I'd make the whole wod expansion optional in the leveling process and call it all non cannon throw in a little quest that has guldan resurrected at the end on mop and thrall prison rape garrosh to death and call it a day on that whole bad idea.

- - - Updated - - -

A plot hole is something in the plot that can't be explained logically. The Legion being stupid isn't one, so it wouldn't be a plot hole - otherwise, we'd have a bunch of "plot holes" in fictions in form of Plot-Induced-Stupidity when a villain (or hero) decided to be stupid and not use his winning move until it's too late.

Additionally, sending AU Gul'dan to AU Azeroth IS different from sending him to our MU Azeroth. All the portals back and forth between present (and for that matter, it was present Archimonde and not past Archimonde in WoD, for clarification just in case) were done that easily during WOD thanks to the connection between present MU and past AU Draenor that Kairoz made. Garrosh made use of that connection to create his Dark Portal linked to our (replacing the previous link between Outland & Azeroth in process), Gul'dan used of that connection to summon Archimonde with no outside help. Did you think they could do that by themselves? On the other hand, sending Gul'dan to AU Azeroth would be the same as sending anyone from MU Draenor to MU Azeroth. If they could do it that easily, Kil'Jaeden would have done so without the need of Medivh opening the connection from our side.

Lastly, I would also like to bring up the fact that other than during Legion expansion, all our victories were made thanks to unexpected artifacts that aren't available anymore. It's not like there are a bunch of Dragon Souls laying around for Malfurion to reverse the summoning, or there are multiple World Tree and millions of wisps to distract Archimonde and explode upon them, or a number of Sunwell ready to sacrifice itself to push back KJ, or we get the force of an entire world (Draenor) empowering us every time on Azeroth. From their arrogant point of view, it isn't too far off if they consider all our victories were by chance. Pure-power wise, the only time we were more powerful was during Legion. They always had the upper-hand until we whipped out our DeMs. Can you blame them for underestimating us?


How would it get to Azeroth? Much less our Azeroth? If it's taking thousands of years (the Legion decided that it would take more than that to reach Azeroth), why would we care? What if Argus has become more of a demon than a pure Titan, like Sargeras, after all the corruption and torment, and already turned into a singular entity? And why are you assuming the AUs are all hopeless without us? What if there are other heroes just as powerful as us arise in those worlds? How about the Titans themselves, as it's doubtful Sargeras would be going to infinite universes to kill the Pantheon infinite times? There are plenty of possible explanations Blizzard can make up to render that worry moot if they want to.

Infinite universes. All possibilities have happened.

[Aquamonkey]

Multivers theory would mean there an infinite Azeroth's many one which will have all ready spawned a void titan as on some the old God's would have beaten the titans. When it comes to infinite universe's all possibilities no matter how improbable will have happened

Infinite universes. All possibilities have happened.

Infinite universes does not mean infinite possibilities. The laws of nature are the same and act as just one constraint. It is impossible for the Old Gods to defeat a titan, not even the void lords could do that. What is possible is that the Pantheon don't find Azeroth or find it too late.

[Dimad]

Look, I would prefer it be in our universe as that would solve some of the problems, but to the best of my knowledge, and i went back and checked. I could not find a single mention by the developers, of AU Draenor being brought into our universe. The only thing i have to go on is a memory of someone at blizzcon being asked a question and giving the chair answer. If you can find a definitive statement from them, perfect. Again, I would prefer this option.

I remember something back before the launch of WoD where Bliz showed two timelines with a connection where we where going with in that timeline however the lines of each universe itself never merged. So no AU draenor was not pulled into our universe, rather we just have a single moment in time where we where in thiers. Prefering the option and the option actually existing are two different things. It also raises the question that if (AU) draenor was pulled into our universe, what would have happened to outlands? Draenor would have been at the same location as outlands, would outlands have simply stopped existing? How would that have been described?

[Qualia]

You do realize we have a convenient portal that's glowing red that we haven't bothered to close, and apparently aren't going to since we're recruiting Draenor Orcs as an allied race, right?

How would it get to AU Draenor to access that portal, then? Who is summoning a being as powerful as a Titan over, especially now AU Draenor should be very cautious as they have just gotten invaded by the Legion just few years ago? And is that portal even powerful enough for him to cross through? Surely, you aren't grouping a bunch of Orcs with a Titan - avatar or not? If it's taking hundreds of thousands years of travelling to AU Draenor, again, why should we care?

How would they rise if there's no major conflict to bring out their strength? And even if there's different conflicts, we're still talking half of a force since an entire faction never comes to be. We barely held off the Legion in our universe as it was.

Illidan and Malfurion foiled the Legion's plan and that was their very first war in their lives. Malfurion, still being a novice druid with merely at ~30-40 years old, summoned roots that Archimonde himself couldn't escape. Azshara, a villainous example, only loses to Archimonde, KJ or Sargeras in power. There can always be beings who are born powerful, promising, and would step up if the situation demands it. Conflicts might help people grow, but it's not the only way for them to.

Why wouldn't he? Are they somehow less of a problem in another universe than in this one? He clearly had plans in the AU to invade AU Azeroth, until Garrosh got involved - Why wouldn't he deal with the Titans in that AU if he had the same plans there as he did here?

Maybe he didn't deal with them in EVERY universe, but the ones we know he was meddling with, why wouldn't he deal with them?

Because travelling to the past takes power and it's not destined that he would win every single time. He had the advantage of Fel and the surprise attack that killed Agramar, so he won in our universe. However, going by end of Antorus, their powers when Aggramar is around are more or less equal. Even with Fel, it's not a given that the same thing will repeat itself in other AUs and he likely isn't patient enough to just keep trying.

For that matter, without us invading AU Argus to stop him, what's stopping the Legion from creating AU Dark Titans out of the rest of the AU Titans?

Time, knowledge and their arrogance. Sargeras (or the Legion in general) have shown that they aren't actually patient enough seeing that they considered spending thousands years to travel to Azeroth doesn't worth it. Hunting down all AU Titans would take time, killing them isn't a given (see above), and there isn't a need for an army of Dark Titans. Sargeras believed that with only his Dark Pantheon, he would be unbeatable. If you are unbeatable with one Dark Pantheon, is there a need for 10 of them - especially when they are neither free nor easy to create?

Edit: since this wasn't there when I starte writing this post

Kil'jaeden was never on Draenor. Archimonde literally was on AU Draenor. Kil'Jaeden waves a hand and six entire Legion ships appear instantaneously on Azeroth, without even being on Azeroth to summon them - You think a simple portal for one is that difficult for him or Archimonde to do?

I meant MU Draenor. Kil'Jaeden was present on MU Draenor when the Orc assaulted the Draenei and the Draenei escaped. Opening a portal from AU Draenor to AU Azeroth should be the same as opening a portal from MU Draenor to MU Azeroth in the past.

And yes, opening a portal powerful enough for an invasion is difficult. That's why Kil'Jaeden didn't do it. Did you realize that KJ was able to summon all those warships because Gul'dan already created the connection to MU Azeroth by then? Enlighten me, did someone created a connection to AU Azeroth that I wasn't aware of?

Prior to this, they used pawns to do everything because they believed we were beneath them. But with every pawn they sent at us, we defeated them and grew stronger, until we were able to defeat the big bad boss themselves. This is a classic RPG trope - But it doesn't work when AUs get thrown into the mix, because now those AUs AREN'T having these pawns thrown at them. They AREN'T growing stronger from these pawns. If an equal force ever met with these AUs, it would spell instant death for them because there is no possible way they can be prepared for what's to come without going through the same thing we went through - Which WoD has ensured will not happen.

This was addressed above, but again, Malfurion and Illidan - a couple of 40 years old NE, one novice druid and a spellcaster, foiled the Legion plan on their first war in their lives, with Malfurion and Archimonde taking part in it. It's too hasty to assume that people can' arise without conflict, especially seeing that some of the most powerful mortals we ever had - Malfurion, Illidan and Azshara, directly fought 0 time and still grew to be as powerful as they were. Conflicts might help, but it isn't right to automatically assume the Azeroth would be helpless without them. Since we have pretty much 0 idea what that AU Azeroth corresponding to AU Draenor was like, it's in a big what-if scenario that anything can be possible.

[Deleted]

Infinite universes does not mean infinite possibilities. The laws of nature are the same and act as just one constraint. It is impossible for the Old Gods to defeat a titan, not even the void lords could do that. What is possible is that the Pantheon don't find Azeroth or find it too late.

Actually there not. The laws of physics were defined during the big bang. Take our world for example if multiverse theory is correct then only small ( note small in infinite is still infinite) number of universes even have the correct laws to allow atoms to form let alone complex molecules.

[bbrewer]

All Alternate Universes already exist. They don't need to be created - We know this from Caverns of Time. The whole existence of the Caverns of Time is to ensure our universe travels down the 'best path available', not 'the only path.'

Kairoz also uses the Visions of Time (which I had mistaken for the Hourglass prior, my mistake) to show various AUs during Garrosh's trial, so we already knew they existed before WoD.

Um, they didn't show AU's during Garrosh's trial, they showed visions of our main timeline that happened in the past.:

Edit: On second reading, I assume you mean when Kairoz brings random people like Warchief Baine and Savage Vol'jin, then you're correct.

[Aquamonkey]

Actually there not. The laws of physics were defined during the big bang. Take our world for example if multiverse theory is correct then only small ( note small in infinite is still infinite) number of universes even have the correct laws to allow atoms to form let alone complex molecules.

Don't conflate theoretical physics' hypothetical multiverse with fictional ones.

In theoretical physics, the multiverse is populated by universes with physical constants having different values. For example, that the gravitational constant has a different value or the strong nuclear force has a different strength. The purpose for this conjecture is to attempt to explain why our universe seems to be such a "perfect balance" for life, ours merely being the only one out of potentially infinite other universes to have those specific values.

In fiction, the multiverse is full of near identical universes that operate on the same physical laws and constants, just that certain outcomes/choices deviate.

[Unholyground]

The timelines were basically placed on top of each other creating a new separate timeline where both are connected now and that is where we all are.

[bbrewer]

Got a link? Never seen anything mentioning that. Though it wouldn't surprise me, the twitter account kind of goes off the rails sometimes and isn't really the will of the creative team.

My headcanon has always been that AU Draenor was ripped into our timeline, rather then us traveling to their timeline. Here are the base reasons...

1) It does a better job of explaining how the demons we fight are said to be "our" demons (AKA MU Archimonde), rather then the silly throwaway mention that demons somehow exist in all timelines. Shouldn't this mean there are like infinite Archimondes and such? demons don't start out demons, they become them, and thus if becoming a demon makes you now exist in all timelines, then they really would be infinite.

2) It explains why the orcs still ended up building the Dark Portal in the same exact spot in Tanaan Jungle as they did in the MU, as they are still utilizing the same rift that has existed in some form since WC1. They just hijacked it using Gul'dan's power, as otherwise they would have needed someone powerful on the other side (AKA Medivh) to complete the stable rift formation. They didn't need that since the rift was already there, and has been for a long time, even if weakened.

3) It prevents the absurdity of having "Alternates" of everything in the cosmos. By bringing Draenor to our timeline, they effectively are now part of our space, and thus exist in our space. We won't have issues of multiple titans, multiple azeroth's, multiple argus's, multiple void horrors, etc. Since our Draenor was blown up and flung into the Twisting Nether, the space it once existed is open for alternate draenor to just be plopped in and nothing needs to change.

4) It explains why they are still around at all. Let's be real here, as much as Nozdormu may have been weakened after the fall of Deathwing, we know he still has a ton of powers over time (as he later becomes an Infinite), and after the threat of the Iron Horde was ended, he likely would put all his power into severing the connection between our timeline and that of the alternate much like he did in the Thrall novel and it's alternate timelines. The fact that they keep implying that WoD Draenor is around to stay, makes me feel this is more then just a time connection.

In the end, it's up to Blizzard, but it just fits way better this way then much of the narrative gymnastics they attempted to explain away other oddities.

P.S. Ah I see it was mentioned by Alex. I love Alex, but one thing to note is that Alex isn't exactly the end all when it comes to the creative beats of WarCraft. Remember that scene in Stonetalon with Garrosh in which he is noble? That was what Alex wanted to do with him, but the other creative heads at Blizzard had other plans for him, and the disconnect has caused one of the most glaring mistakes in the game narrative.

Couldn't agree more. This is the theory i choose to believe as it fixes the most plot holes and for everyone saying there side is the correct side, there is evidence for both sides. With developers hinting at both formats and none are disproved over the course of the game.

[Deleted]

Don't conflate theoretical physics' hypothetical multiverse with fictional ones.

In theoretical physics, the multiverse is populated by universes with physical constants having different values. For example, that the gravitational constant has a different value or the strong nuclear force has a different strength. The purpose for this conjecture is to attempt to explain why our universe seems to be such a "perfect balance" for life, ours merely being the only one out of potentially infinite other universes to have those specific values.

In fiction, the multiverse is full of near identical universes that operate on the same physical laws and constants, just that certain outcomes/choices deviate.

I don't think blizz has stated what version of multiverse there running the real or the stripped down marvel one. Though I'd hazard a guess your right and that they also don't know the difference.

Though I always will argue that multiverse are redundant over complications in fictional universe with deity's. As the whole reason for the theory to begin with is to provide that 2nd answer to the great cosmological question.

[bbrewer]

In my headcannon i now choose to believe that in the beginning there was 1 main timeline (Ours), with the titans policing it like they did other types of magic (see Doomguards). Then when the Pantheon was killed by Sargeras, it allowed mortals to freely screw with it and begin to create alternate timelines. This is why there is one Burning Legion (Created before the death of the Pantheon) but multiple post-ordered Azeroths. Aman'thul's spirit then charged Nozdormu with essentially taking over the timeways in relation Azeroth. AU Draenor was then physically brought into our timeline by Kairoz or possibly Garrosh screwing with the shard trying to connect the Dark Portals (We never see the story of how the Iron Horde united and did this and prob never will). imo this fixes the most plot holes and despite what some may think theirs is no real conclusive proof either way. With blizzard people themselves saying that it was brought over or it wasint and eventually just trying to ignore it.

[Shrouded]

If WoD Draenor is not in our universe, it would mean that mages (Khadgar & players, but also random unnamed mages in Ashran) have the ability to create portals across either time or dimensions, or both. WoD is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it?

[Qualia]

If WoD Draenor is not in our universe, it would mean that mages (Khadgar & players, but also random unnamed mages in Ashran) have the ability to create portals across either time or dimensions, or both. WoD is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it?

Lore-wise, they can already travel back in time, or travel through space before WoD. It just takes a lot of power - one issue that was dealt with thanks to Kairoz bringing Garrosh to AU Draenor and created the link between them. I think it's fair to assume that once that connection is made between two places, travelling between them would cost relatively less power seeing how AU Gul'dan was able to summon present Archimonde by himself, how easily Illidan brought his entire army to Outland, or how the Dark Portal was re-opened with just an artifact when it required Medivh and the Orcs to created the Dark Portal at first place.

Titans don't need portals. They literally travel all over the universe. This is well documented in lore - Aggramar and the Titans went to Azeroth without the need for portals, and Aggramar also went to Draenor without the need for portals.

... The demons didn't need a portal, either. They could travel there, the portal acts as a method to shorten time travelling, but it's not their only method of travel.
So, AU Argus is going to fly, then? Okay, that means at worst, we can start worrying bout it at worst a decade later, and at best, a dozen thousand years - which means it's more or less irrelevant to current story. The Titans take time to travel around the universe, they don't randomly teleport all over.

Additionally, with that said, I just realized another two things. Firstly, with Sargeras gone and the Legion more or less dismantled, it's not a given that AU Argus Titan would awake to become a Dark Titan anymore, or if he would be aiming for us now, as he has no one to command him anymore - who cares if he start destroying a corner of the AU, that's what Sargeras was doing before and we clearly didn't until he started invading us. Secondly, seeing that the Legion is a singular entity and MU Argus was turned into the Legion's homeworld inside the Nether, it's not a given if AU Argus even shared the same fate of being tortured and corrupted, or Sargeras just discarded it altogether. We clearly didn't see an infinite amount of Argus (the planet) flying around the Nether, did we?

Malfurion barely managed to finish the ritual in the War of the Ancients to sacrifice the Night Elves mortality and blow up a million wisps to stop Archimonde from destroying the World Tree, and that was WITH the help of humans and Orcs, both of which only found out about this plot due to Medivh's ghost helping them. We don't even know if this would occur, because without the invasion, we don't know if the Scourge Plague would ever hit Azeroth.

And? My point was, if a 40 years old NE - who experienced no conflict whatsoever in his life - managed to foil the Legion plan, and powerful enough to push back Archimonde even momentarily, how do you know that no one else do the same thing? They didn't step up to that role in the main universe as others have done so in their place, but how can you say that it'd be the same in AU?

By growing, I meant all what you said instead of just physical growth, so my point remains. Conflicts fuels advancement, but it doesn't mean that there would be no advancement whatsoever without it. How are you so sure that there wouldn't be some genius 10 times better than our Azeroth's genius arise in that AU, just because he (or she) was born with all that intelligence and power?

He was already spending energy on this universe. Archimonde didn't come here for no reason, Gul'dan wasn't made a pawn here for no reason, Mannoroth wasn't re-used for no reason. If the energy expediture was too much, why would he bother with AU Draenor at all if he wasn't going to commit to it?

Because he found it to be a way to invade our MU Azeroth thanks to the connection made. The most important part - connection between present and the past - is already made by someone else, and they were just making use of it. They had to spent little power from themselves. What they mainly spent were just human(demon?)resources in form of troops. Sure, it still cost power to summon Archimonde over, but did you think MU Gul'dan - who was less powerful than even Khadgar - could do that alone?

It isn't a lack of patience, it's a lack of time. Azeroth already has Old gods on it, infesting it. It's only a matter of time before a Void Titan spawns from it, and that's what Sargeras wants to prevent.

If it was just a lack of time, they would have just started moving towards us regardless whether a summon was coming or not. Seeing that he was still sitting nicely in Antorus, that doesn't seem to be the case.

But if we're talking the multiverse, and a potential for failure, and infinite universes upon which infinite armies upon infinite armies may be raised, you'd be silly to not use all of them. ESPECIALLY if you have plans that might be ruined in another universe you've already committed time to.

Bravo, you finally see my point. The Legion is arrogant and stupid. Are you trying to imply that they are not? That's why I brought up the trope that could be applied to them "Plot-Induced-Stupidity", and not Plot-Induced-Smartness. If they aren't silly or arrogant, Archimonde would have headed towards Malfurion or the Aspects during WoTA after teleporting instead of going over to Jarod and even waste precious time mocking him (instead of just kill him on the spot). He also wouldn't focus on the tree before making sure that Malfurion and Tyrande is dead, or that he is covered and defended by demons while siphoning the World Tree. Heck, an unnamed Eredar ripped a world surface apart, killing everything on it in process, with a single spell that took but a few moments to prepare - again, if the Legion aren't arrogant and stupid, Archimonde or KJ could have given us a weakened version of that 10 times out of 10.

An enemy being stupid isn't a plot-hole, especially when they have been portrayed as such a few times.

[bbrewer]

This is incorrect.

The alternate timelines always existed. The Pantheon's 'one true timeline' was the one they determined was best for the universe, but the universe has always had the potential to go in multiple directions. (Hence the need for the Bronze Flight watching over the timeways of Azeroth.)

Your headcanon directly opposes existing lore.

*sigh* what?, where does it say that alternate timelines have always existed. This is the problem that this thread has devolved into, too many people are stating what they think are absolute facts. I'm just merly throwing out my own thoughts on the lore in what i hoped would be a cool conversation with people stating there own thoughts, theories and opinions. But it just seems everyone no matter what camp your on is just saying everyone else is wrong. What i have said is not contradicting any lore but at the same time is not backed up by it, Thats why it's my theory.

[Qualia]

*sigh* what?, where does it say that alternate timelines have always existed. This is the problem that this thread has devolved into, too many people are stating what they think are absolute facts. I'm just merly throwing out my own thoughts on the lore in what i hoped would be a cool conversation with people stating there own thoughts, theories and opinions. But it just seems everyone no matter what camp your on is just saying everyone else is wrong. What i have said is not contradicting any lore but at the same time is not backed up by it, Thats why it's my theory.

How would it work in your theory, though? Unlike the demons who transcend realities, the Titans don't. How could they keep it so there was only one single timeline / universe? How did they prevent other timeline / universe from being created, or destroyed them if they don't at least transcend reality (again, which means physical universes in WoW term) themselves?