Iceland proposes ban on male circumcision

[Minikin]

You keep yelling on about religious freedom.. when religion has nothing to do with why most people do it in the US..

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What is wrong with the part you bolded? Its true, actually try to counter it if you don't think so.

It is a twist of words to get people's emotions going. A bait.

Whats next on the slippery slope? Don't do cardiac surgery you could die?

We tout about freedom which encompasses letting people believe in what they want or not want and live peacefully. Yet then surgically (pun intended) attack things we don't agree with that honestly have no affect on us.

I wonder what the affect on my life is if a Jew gets his child circumsized.

[shaunika123]

Lol okayyyyyyyyyy

Of course I guess now it's civilized by only being less than half way educated about people's religion but making wide ranging decisions on it.

Definition for civilization must have changed since last I looked it up.

what does that even mean? are you saying rational thought should not trump superstition? or what? I'm seriously asking cos I dont understand what you're saying.

It is a twist of words to get people's emotions going. A bait.

Whats next on the slippery slope? Don't do cardiac surgery you could die?

We tout about freedom which encompasses letting people believe in what they want or not want and live peacefully. Yet then surgically (pun intended) attack things we don't agree with that honestly have no affect on us.

I wonder what the affect on my life is if a Jew gets his child circumsized.

it affects the child

that's the point. what's so hard to understand about that?

[Deleted]

Pretty sure if jewish folk wanna have a job in iceland, not being able to chop off their sons foreskin wont stop them, or theyll travel elsewhere to do it and come back again. Dont think this should be done at the behest of the parents if possible, only if the kid wants to do it himself.

if only parents could be held responsible for shit they do to their children?
Wait, they can.

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What actual harm (outside of the random, rare medical complication that can happen due to an allergy or bad reaction to a vaccination) does the removal of some worthless skin cause?

Desensitization, urinary problems, erectile dysfunction, Death.
Oh and it's some of the most sensitive skin in the whole body.

[Mihalik]

I wonder what the affect on my life is if a Jew gets his child circumsized.

What affect does Female Genital Mutilation has on your life? What affect does a Mormon cultist marrying a hundred 12 year olds has on your life? What affect does a Neo Nazi lunatic tattooing a swastika on his kid's forehead has on you etc?

We object to shit for a reason, even if they don't directly affect us personally...because THEY ARE OBJECTIONABLE and we live in this thing called... a SOCIETY.

[Deleted]

What affect does Female Genital Mutilation has on your life? What affect does a Mormon cultist marrying a hundred 12 year olds has on your life? What affect does a Neo Nazi lunatic tattooing a swastika on his kid's forehead has on you etc?

We object to shit for a reason, even if they don't directly affect us personally...because THEY ARE OBJECTIONABLE and we live in this thing called... a SOCIETY.

Less 12 year olds for the rest of us!

[Tennis]

And the world is flat right?

Nobody is saying that here bud.

[Minikin]

what does that even mean? are you saying rational thought should not trump superstition? or what? I'm seriously asking cos I dont understand what you're saying.





it affects the child

that's the point. what's so hard to understand about that?

of course it affects the child. My point isnt that. I had only two points. 1. the article tries to bait people into an emotional storm to think about this rather than objectively to see it from both sides. 2. We keep intefereing in people's religion, when we are not completely informed.

For example. I can see your point on how it affects children and that perhaps its better than once they are old enough to think for themselves they can decide to do so or not. But at the sametime as i try to see your point I expect that you also see mine. That just as easy it is to call for a ban for it thinking its for the good. There is another side to it and it cannot be ignored.

Say the jewish child grows up and goes, "wth why wasnt this done to me, its part of my religion? Oh the government of iceland decided that? Are they jewish? Do they know how things go? No? So why were they allowed to make this decision?"

What then? do we just say, well we think it was a barbaric practice and thus your religion having it also makes it barbaric? Or, edit your religion, we like some parts of it and some not? How many of these people even understand the religion? I am not jewish myself but i wouldnt authorize or even dream of wide ranging changes to someone else's beliefs without at least gaining more than just basic knowledge.

This is a slippery slope, and having lived in the mid east I can tell you this is the kind of thinking that started SOME of the crap there. People putting their noses in everyone's business. So long as its not harming society, which honestly is very debatable, people should be left to their devices.

[Deleted]

of course it affects the child. My point isnt that. I had only two points. 1. the article tries to bait people into an emotional storm to think about this rather than objectively to see it from both sides. 2. We keep intefereing in people's religion, when we are not completely informed.

For example. I can see your point on how it affects children and that perhaps its better than once they are old enough to think for themselves they can decide to do so or not. But at the sametime as i try to see your point I expect that you also see mine. That just as easy it is to call for a ban for it thinking its for the good. There is another side to it and it cannot be ignored.

Say the jewish child grows up and goes, "wth why wasnt this done to me, its part of my religion? Oh the government of iceland decided that? Are they jewish? Do they know how things go? No? So why were they allowed to make this decision?"

What then? do we just say, well we think it was a barbaric practice and thus your religion having it also makes it barbaric? Or, edit your religion, we like some parts of it and some not? How many of these people even understand the religion? I am not jewish myself but i wouldnt authorize or even dream of wide ranging changes to someone else's beliefs without at least gaining more than just basic knowledge.

This is a slippery slope, and having lived in the mid east I can tell you this is the kind of thinking that started SOME of the crap there. People putting their noses in everyone's business. So long as its not harming society, which honestly is very debatable, people should be left to their devices.

We tell that Jewish person "Deal with it your Religion was backwards you stupid fuck"

[Minikin]

What affect does Female Genital Mutilation has on your life? What affect does a Mormon cultist marrying a hundred 12 year olds has on your life? What affect does a Neo Nazi lunatic tattooing a swastika on his kid's forehead has on you etc?

We object to shit for a reason, even if they don't directly affect us personally...because THEY ARE OBJECTIONABLE and we live in this thing called... a SOCIETY.

i can agree with that totally. but you are missing my point a little.
1. female gential mutilation: many blame islam for it. No where in islam is that permissible or even allowed. When such a thing happens and people try to hide behind the religious umbrella, it is the knowledge of said religion that exposes them. And it is the ignorance of those who arent knowledgable that causes generalization and bias. All I am asking is, people who make these decisions, are they just doing it out of emotion? Or are they well versed in said religion. If its the first one, then the moral high ground of calling ourselves civilized is lost already and there is no point going forward.

2. I have no clue about mormons so i cannot speak on that

3. Swastika openly projects hate which is why we are against it. Circumcision is not so easily addressed. Thats all I am saying. You cannot just make grand generalizations. For example. If anyone says, it causes death, many can say "well i had it i didnt die". What then? The argument has to be deeper than that.
2.

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We tell that Jewish person "Deal with it your Religion was backwards you stupid fuck"

Then how can we call our selves civilized folk. The people who are better than the crazies in the mid east who allow people to live freely and happily. I am sure civilized people can find the time to educate themselves beyond the "your religion is stupid". That sounds very close to "You arent muslim, thus you must be put to death".

[shaunika123]

of course it affects the child. My point isnt that. I had only two points. 1. the article tries to bait people into an emotional storm to think about this rather than objectively to see it from both sides. 2. We keep intefereing in people's religion, when we are not completely informed.

For example. I can see your point on how it affects children and that perhaps its better than once they are old enough to think for themselves they can decide to do so or not. But at the sametime as i try to see your point I expect that you also see mine. That just as easy it is to call for a ban for it thinking its for the good. There is another side to it and it cannot be ignored.

Say the jewish child grows up and goes, "wth why wasnt this done to me, its part of my religion? Oh the government of iceland decided that? Are they jewish? Do they know how things go? No? So why were they allowed to make this decision?"

What then? do we just say, well we think it was a barbaric practice and thus your religion having it also makes it barbaric? Or, edit your religion, we like some parts of it and some not? How many of these people even understand the religion? I am not jewish myself but i wouldnt authorize or even dream of wide ranging changes to someone else's beliefs without at least gaining more than just basic knowledge.

This is a slippery slope, and having lived in the mid east I can tell you this is the kind of thinking that started SOME of the crap there. People putting their noses in everyone's business. So long as its not harming society, which honestly is very debatable, people should be left to their devices.

literally none of your arguments hold any merit when all you can fall back on is "this 10 thousand years old book told me to do it so the government cant tell me I cant"
nobody cares

IT IS BARBARIC, there's plenty of stuff in every religion that most of society have moved over.
we no longer stone adulterers to death, we no longer kill people that work on saturdays, and circumcision should go down with all those archaic rituals that hold no merit today.

it's quite literally cutting stuff off people just because they did that 10 thousand years ago for reasons that are no longer relevant today.

I could make the slippery slope argument the other way too: if we allow religion to dictate medical procedures, what's to stop them from dictating other stuff that their archaic books tell them to do?

the jewish child should grow up and think: okay, my parents have this tradition, do I want to follow it, or not? THAT CHOICE is directly impeding HIS religious freedom actually. because they're quite literally cutting him to be a jew against his will.

and before you say "well he can choose to not be a jew even after being circumcized" well then you can choose to be circumcised after you're old enough to decide if you want to follow religious tradition or not.

NO CHILDREN should be forced into a religion against their will, because it's basically brainwashing, especially if that religion entails mutilating said child.

but anyway, circumcision isnt even strictly a religious issue, since americans do it without any religious tradition being entailed to it.
they're just doing it because some hack doctor thought it's a good idea 200 years ago.

I am sure civilized people can find the time to educate themselves beyond the "your religion is stupid"

it's not "your religion", it's "all religion" without exception. but that doesnt mean you're not free to practice your stupidity, just dont cut stuff of other people because of it. I think that's a fair request, don't you?

[Deleted]

Then how can we call our selves civilized folk. The people who are better than the crazies in the mid east who allow people to live freely and happily. I am sure civilized people can find the time to educate themselves beyond the "your religion is stupid". That sounds very close to "You arent muslim, thus you must be put to death".

Because we don't hold lopping off a bit of a kids dick as a core part of our morale code generation institution.

Also nice fallacy there. But just that, a fallacy.

Religions do not get rights, Religions are groups, not people.

People have rights. You do not have the right to mutilate your kid.

[Tennis]

What affect does Female Genital Mutilation has on your life? What affect does a Mormon cultist marrying a hundred 12 year olds has on your life? What affect does a Neo Nazi lunatic tattooing a swastika on his kid's forehead has on you etc?

We object to shit for a reason, even if they don't directly affect us personally...because THEY ARE OBJECTIONABLE and we live in this thing called... a SOCIETY.

FGM is not the same so I don't see the comparison.

[Deleted]

FGM is not the same so I don't see the comparison.

Labia and clitoral hood surgeries are pretty much Female circumcision.

[Minikin]

literally none of your arguments hold any merit when all you can fall back on is "this 10 thousand years old book told me to do it so the government cant tell me I cant"
nobody cares

IT IS BARBARIC, there's plenty of stuff in every religion that most of society have moved over.
we no longer stone adulterers to death, we no longer kill people that work on saturdays, and circumcision should go down with all those archaic rituals that hold no merit today.

it's quite literally cutting stuff off people just because they did that 10 thousand years ago for reasons that are no longer relevant today.

I could make the slippery slope argument the other way too: if we allow religion to dictate medical procedures, what's to stop them from dictating other stuff that their archaic books tell them to do?

the jewish child should grow up and think: okay, my parents have this tradition, do I want to follow it, or not? THAT CHOICE is directly impeding HIS religious freedom actually. because they're quite literally cutting him to be a jew against his will.

and before you say "well he can choose to not be a jew even after being circumcized" well then you can choose to be circumcised after you're old enough to decide if you want to follow religious tradition or not.

NO CHILDREN should be forced into a religion against their will, because it's basically brainwashing, especially if that religion entails mutilating said child.

that is exactly my point though. it is a slippery slope.

Many religions begin at 7 years old. As in the application of religious law. So when this kid grows up and says "oh God ive been sinning since 7 to 18 because the icelandic government said so!" what then?

Of course my point isnt that, im not saying YEA CIRCUMCISION. my point is its not as simple. It isnt. Because the moment you can have a variable beyond just "this is wrong" "this is right" it requires further thought than a generalized solution. It is simple to you, because you do not follow a religion. It is not as simple the other way around. And that is the tough part because people who follow religion cannot comprehend completely how it is so linearly simple for a person who doesnt follow a religion. And similarly people who dont follow a religion are frustrated on how a religious person can have so many grey areas and variables.

[Tikaru]

Then how can we call our selves civilized folk. The people who are better than the crazies in the mid east who allow people to live freely and happily. I am sure civilized people can find the time to educate themselves beyond the "your religion is stupid". That sounds very close to "You arent muslim, thus you must be put to death".

I think we can say that having religious beliefs is fine, so long as they don't interfere with others, especially physical harm.

[Minikin]

Because we don't hold lopping off a bit of a kids dick as a core part of our morale code generation institution.

Also nice fallacy there. But just that, a fallacy.

Religions do not get rights, Religions are groups, not people.

People have rights. You do not have the right to mutilate your kid.

Isnt religious freedom a right? You could believe in the spaghetti monster and be safe and sane right?

[Deleted]

Isnt religious freedom a right? You could believe in the spaghetti monster and be safe and sane right?

YOUR Religious freedom, not your pushing your Religion on a child.

[Minikin]

I think we can say that having religious beliefs is fine, so long as they don't interfere with others, especially physical harm.

I can totally agree with that.

The problem happens at the word "others". for example: if other is your neighbour and you are biased against them cuz they dont believe but you do, that is wrong clearly. But when other is your kid, it becomes a bid muddled as many people believe that religion is indoctrination as a child while many would argue otherwise.

To me this is where it becomes personal opinion at least. I dont truly want to get involved in someones family affairs. I would definitely care if they start burning their neighbours house just cuz they not muslim.

[shaunika123]

Isnt religious freedom a right? You could believe in the spaghetti monster and be safe and sane right?

of course, but the moment the spaghetti monster told you to tatoo huge dicks on your child's forehead, then it's no longer YOUR right but the child's

I cant believe yoU're still not understandin that.

Many religions begin at 7 years old. As in the application of religious law. So when this kid grows up and says "oh God ive been sinning since 7 to 18 because the icelandic government said so!" what then?

that's literally child abuse, you're making the child believe he might burn in hell for all eternity(or whatever their equivalent of hell or punishment for sin is) , because he didnt get his dick snipped.
do you honestly think that's okay? to psychologically torture a child because you read it in an old book that it's a sin?

this is precisely the kindof bullshit that proves religion has no place in today's society, or at the very least not in it's current form of brainwashing children.

[Tikaru]

I can totally agree with that.

The problem happens at the word "others". for example: if other is your neighbour and you are biased against them cuz they dont believe but you do, that is wrong clearly. But when other is your kid, it becomes a bid muddled as many people believe that religion is indoctrination as a child while many would argue otherwise.

To me this is where it becomes personal opinion at least. I dont truly want to get involved in someones family affairs. I would definitely care if they start burning their neighbours house just cuz they not muslim.

I think it could be best thought of like this: if a parent wants to surgically remove part of their child's ear, should they be allowed to since it's their child?

If no, why is circumcision okay?