Donald Trump Jr likes Florida Shooting Conspiracy Tweets.

[Dacien]

I think everybody knows I am not on Dacien's side of the argument, but how is this not whataboutism? This has absolutely no relevance to what he is currently talking about, and the post that offended him was somebody literally claiming he wanted more dead kids. I would say he is pretty much absolutely correct in being upset by that, I have pretty thick skin, but if somebody accused me of wanting more children to be murdered I would be upset too.

If we want to keep the moral high ground on our side of the argument that means we have to act like it, and some of the crowd piling on the usual suspects in this thread have been getting pretty nasty.

A few posts up even Ransath acknowledged he was willing to make some concessions on background checks and closing loopholes, and you guys just kept attacking rather then trying to build any consensus.

There's no place anymore where people from disparate political or social alignments can talk about issues. The major one, Reddit, is an echo chamber on both sides due to voting and outright bans, the only place left anymore is a forum like this where posts stand on their own. And we duke it out pretty hard. Each side takes some hard knocks, but at least there's dialogue. Sometimes it devolves into a real s**tshow, but at least posts are dealt with on the content of what is said, and not dealt with by just outright banning immediately or downvoting into basically non-existence.

And it's led to some coming together, like your example of @Ransath being open about background checks. He's opening up about common ground. I've opened up about the common ground as well on other subjects. If anyone wants to have political discussions with the other side that isn't roasting someone in a snarky Tweet or getting banned immediately for posting a contrary opinion in the wrong subreddit, this is one of the last places to do it. Lord knows I can't talk politics at work or at home with someone who disagrees, we know how that goes.

But sometimes what's being said is just not good in any possible way. That happens.

[Thekri]

Pointing out the hypocrisy of excusing behavior of that sort then crying foul when someone uses harsh language is hardly whataboutism.



They can go back to their safe space on /r/The_Donald, then.



I've already explained why I'm not interested in "building consensus" with that brand of gun rights activist; they fundamentally do not agree on the scope of the discussion. They have no intention of making anyone safer with their 'concessions' - the chief goal is creating an environment in which commonplace firearm ownership is less contentious.

And all of this is just more vicious partisanship, if you can't separate the difference between defending Trump and murdering children, you aren't helping the situation. Sure they can go back to a safe space, but I would prefer if this forum didn't become a safe space for anyone, having both sides of the issue represented here in a relatively controlled fashion is why this is the only political version I ever go to on the internet. Usually sites turn into echo chambers for one side or the other, and failing to expose yourself to opposite viewpoints is bad for you. To legitimately do that you have to maintain some mutual respect, calling them out when they do or say something horrible, but you don't have to fling that in their face every time they try to make a point.

[Elegiac]

There's no place anymore where people from disparate political or social alignments can talk about issues.

And who, pray tell, is responsible for that?

Might it be the people who opted to shoot the federal government in the kneecaps in retaliation for the audacity of the President being a black guy, and a Democrat to boot? The people who decided to hold the funds necessary for keeping the country running hostage because they didn't get their way on Healthcare? The people who have engaged in decades long warfare against academia and science in the name of their political agenda? The people that opted to elect disgusting individuals that have stoked partisanship to obscene levels and continued to make any meaningful form of political compromise impossible?

You do not get to break something and then cry foul when you start being impacted personally, sir.

[Dacien]

I mean, he didn't support Moore's pedophilia... he just ignored it, because Moore is such a godly man, and he supports his politics.

I called for Moore to step down day one of the accusations, after I reviewed them and saw how credible they were.

It was literally the first thing I said about the issue on GenOT about Moore.

[Machismo]

I called for Moore to step down day one of the accusations, after I reviewed them and saw how credible they were.

You do realize I was joking, right? I'm pointing to your undying support of Trump, even though he was accused of some pretty terrible damn things. You continue to lie and say he was the lesser of two evils, when there were more than two options. At best, you choose the second most evil of many options. At worst... the most evil.

[Elegiac]

And all of this is just more vicious partisanship, if you can't separate the difference between defending Trump and murdering children, you aren't helping the situation. Sure they can go back to a safe space, but I would prefer if this forum didn't become a safe space for anyone, having both sides of the issue represented here in a relatively controlled fashion is why this is the only political version I ever go to on the internet. Usually sites turn into echo chambers for one side or the other, and failing to expose yourself to opposite viewpoints is bad for you. To legitimately do that you have to maintain some mutual respect, calling them out when they do or say something horrible, but you don't have to fling that in their face every time they try to make a point.

I understand the difference between defending Trump and murdering children, yes.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to point out hypocrisy or shilling.

[Thekri]

I understand the difference between defending Trump and murdering children, yes.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to point out hypocrisy or shilling.

Not saying you can't hit him, just saying keep it above the belt. Dacien deals in hypocrisy every day, it is how he rationalizes the terrible deal with the devil he made, but there are limits, and dead children is past most peoples limits. Everyone in this thread agrees it is bad and we need to fix it, but since nobody can agree to how, we never do anything. If people stop digging in along party lines everytime, we can get at least something done. What Ransath was suggesting earlier isn't enough, but it is something. Gun Control isn't the only answer, but it is part of the problem, mental health care isn't the only answer, but it can also be addressed. However if we bunker down and accuse the other side of supporting dead kids, then we are going to be stuck in this loop forever, and it will keep happening over and over.

[Dacien]

Seriously if someone murdered 30 people 40 years ago but ran for president as long as they ran with your ideals you would be like "Pffft, their murders aren't an indicator of who they are as a person, as long as they give me what I want I'm okay with it." The hell is wrong with you?

Obviously there are gradations of bad behavior. Being disrespectful and boorish is not the same as, for example, attempting to rape an underage girl, or murdering 30 people.

But this is wildly off-topic, we really need to get back to Don Jr.'s stupidity. My spidey sense is tingling about a thread closure.

[Grapemask]

This has got to be the most foul, awful attack I've seen in all my time here. In all my time here, I've never reported a post for any reason directed at me, because I'd rather try to persuade and continue to have a discussion, and a ban destroys that opportunity, and I'm not going to start now, but I can't find anything redeemable about what you've said here.

My arguments about media outlets propping up children affected by the shooting in Parkland to push for gun control means I wish there were more dead kids?

Just one of the worst posts I've ever seen.

I think it's more than one side has adopted the insane strategy of calling this "media propping up children" to save their guns. Make no mistake: saying this is fucking insane. This. Is. Insane.

There is no political action in the history of politics that was not the result of another action. We do not make laws just because we feel like making them. Every law has been the result of something happening and someone saying "Hey, wait, that shouldn't be allowed," or, "Hey, that's great, we need to make sure there can be more of that."

To turn this into "media propping up children" is. fucking. insane. The media is reporting on the collective response of most Americans to this - that the country with the shittiest gun control/gun ownership spread should do something to at least slow down our insane number of massacres.

Again, we need to reiterate, this spin is fucking insane, and this narrative needs to die. Hard.

[Dontrike]

Obviously there are gradations of bad behavior. Being disrespectful and boorish is not the same as, for example, attempting to rape an underage girl, or murdering 30 people.

But this is wildly off-topic, we really need to get back to Don Jr.'s stupidity. My spidey sense is tingling about a thread closure.

This whole thread is off-topic, did you not see the last 10 pages? I'm hoping this thread is closed it's been a complete clusterfuck.

[Dacien]

I think it's more than one side has adopted the insane strategy of calling this "media propping up children" to save their guns. Make no mistake: saying this is fucking insane. This. Is. Insane.

There is no political action in the history of politics that was not the result of another action. We do not make laws just because we feel like making them. Every law has been the result of something happening and someone saying "Hey, wait, that shouldn't be allowed," or, "Hey, that's great, we need to make sure there can be more of that."

To turn this into "media propping up children" is. fucking. insane. The media is reporting on the collective response of most Americans to this - that the country with the shittiest gun control/gun ownership spread should do something to at least slow down our insane number of massacres.

Again, we need to reiterate, this spin is fucking insane, and this narrative needs to die. Hard.

Well let me ask you this: Let's say an undocumented immigrant went into a school and knifed several kids to death. Been deported 5 times. Sanctuary city.

Then kids from the school show up on Fox News talking about how we need stricter immigration. Multiple kids show up on Fox News to push for stricter immigration. What would you say about Fox News? Would you say the kids are just expressing their willing opinion? Maybe they are, but they're being used as a tool by Fox, which is disgusting.

And furthermore, the kids who are simply repeating what Fox News has been calling for itself for a long time does not make the argument any stronger, it simply adds an emotion-based element of showing young kids affected by a tragedy.

[Felya]

All that said, the right should stick to debunking these emotion-based tactics (which they do very well), without resorting to accusations that can't be proven or flat-out conspiracy theories.

Can you tell this person to stop saying shit like this? Because it left enough of a mark for me to remember them doing it:

I know that if Garcia Zarate wasn't left to be in the country illegally five times by a complicit municipality, Jim Steinle wouldn't have held his bleeding daughter on a pier in San Francisco while she spoke her last words, "Help me, Dad."

I know that.

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Well let me ask you this: Let's say an undocumented immigrant went into a school and knifed several kids to death. Been deported 5 times. Sanctuary city.

Then kids from the school show up on Fox News talking about how we need stricter immigration. Multiple kids show up on Fox News to push for stricter immigration. What would you say about Fox News? Would you say the kids are just expressing their willing opinion? Maybe they are, but they're being used as a tool by Fox, which is disgusting.

And furthermore, the kids who are simply repeating what Fox News has been calling for itself for a long time does not make the argument any stronger, it simply adds an emotion-based element of showing young kids affected by a tragedy.

Now I want your comment on the above post even more.

[Dacien]

Can you tell this person to stop saying shit like this? Because it left enough of a mark for me to remember them doing it:



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Now I want your comment on the above post even more.

Well yeah, I was passionate about that. She would still be alive if we enforced our laws. I waxed emotional because it hit me hard. You could reasonably accuse me of inserting emotion into the argument there, but it was genuine.

But that's a fair response, you got me.

I would offer that in my case, Kate Steinle would still be alive if not for the fact that we weren't enforcing existing laws that we have, I was pushing for enforcing existing laws. In my example, and in CNN's case, they're using emotional elements to try to cajole the public into passing new laws, which is a different thing. I wasn't trying to shape public policy, I was simply frustrated that we weren't enforcing the policy that already exists.

[Felya]

Well yeah, I was passionate about that. She would still be alive if we enforced our laws. I waxed emotional because it hit me hard. You could reasonably accuse me of inserting emotion into the argument there, but it was genuine.

But that's a fair response, you got me.

How long ago was this event before your post?

You just used exactly what you are doing, as an example of being used by Fox News. What changed in the last 2 minutes? You literally called what you did, disgusting...

There is no fucking “got me”... that’s not my point at all.

[Thekri]

Can you tell this person to stop saying shit like this? Because it left enough of a mark for me to remember them doing it:



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Now I want your comment on the above post even more.

And that is the correct way to hit hard, but above the belt. Well done!

[Felya]

And that is the correct way to hit hard, but above the belt. Well done!

It was honestly a coincidence with the timing. I was banned before work started, so couldn’t finish finding his post. I just finished working, called my folks as I do every day, then went to finish the post I was writing in am. Hit send, go to proof read it again to avoid the damn “learn English” trolling I keep getting. Look up and my jaw dropped...

I remember him saying it, because it irked me that much and it was worth the 20 min of looking for it.

[Dacien]

How long ago was this event before your post?

You just used exactly what you are doing, as an example of being used by Fox News. What changed in the last 2 minutes? You literally called what you did, disgusting...

There is no fucking “got me”... that’s not my point at all.

I edited my post.

I feel like being frustrated and waxing emotional about existing policy not being enforced is one thing. You're not trying to change anything or take anything away from anybody, you just want the law enforced. But using emotional elements to try and change policy, to enact limitations on people, that's different.

[Felya]

I would offer that in my case, Kate Steinle would still be alive if not for the fact that we weren't enforcing existing laws that we have, I was pushing for enforcing existing laws. In my example, and in CNN's case, they're using emotional elements to try to cajole the public into passing new laws, which is a different thing. I wasn't trying to shape public policy, I was simply frustrated that we weren't enforcing the policy that already exists.

Then why did you use it as an example of how wrong it is? You literally just used this as a counter, to claim that people saying literally what you did, were disgusting. This isn’t about me getting you. This is me expressing my frustration, with you knowing how disgusting your comment to me was. You might not take this shit personally, but as an immigrant, seeing people like you conflate immigration, legal or not, with murderers, is a personal attack. The fact that you admit to it being disgusting is very upsetting... that is all I can say... very upsetting...

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I edited my post.

I feel like being frustrated and waxing emotional about existing policy not being enforced is one thing. You're not trying to change anything or take anything away from anybody, you just want the law enforced. But using emotional elements to try and change policy, to enact limitations on people, that's different.

By implying this is some how being used by media, you are trying to take away something. The voice of people airing their frustration, just as you did.

[Elegiac]

I feel like being frustrated and waxing emotional about exiting policy not being enforced is one thing. You're not trying to change anything or take anything away from anybody. But using emotional elements to try and change policy, to enact limitations, that's different.

Lol, horse shit. An emotional argument is an emotional argument, you're trying to excuse yourself of your hypocrisy by inventing this arbitrary standard where emotional arguments are sometimes okay, you guys!

Not trying to take anything away from anybody? I mean, aside from the livelihoods of all those illegal immigrants who do not engage in criminal activity and contribute much that it is vital and necessary to the country. But hey, what's that compared to a right created primarily for the preservation of keeping people in bondage.

[Dacien]

Then why did you use it as an example of how wrong it is? You literally just used this as a counter, to claim that people saying literally what you did, were disgusting. This isn’t about me getting you. This is me expressing my frustration, with you knowing how disgusting your comment to me was. You might not take this shit personally, but as an immigrant, seeing people like you conflate immigration, legal or not, with murderers, is a personal attack. The fact that you admit to it being disgusting is very upsetting... that is all I can say... very upsetting...

I guess this is hard to wrestle with. I feel like using young kids to push for stricter immigration is different than highlighting a murder that wouldn't have happened if we simply enforced the immigration laws we already have. In one, you're trying to shape public policy, push for restrictions in some way on immigration, and in the other, you're not trying to enact any policy changes (strictly speaking about myself in that quote), nefariously use victims as emotional tools to push for new, controversial policy, you're simply showing the consequences of not enforcing the laws we already have and being emotional and frustrated about it. I think they're different.

And Felya, you seem like a cool dude. I don't know what country you are from, but I work with Mexican immigrants every single day, and they work hard. Most of them are pretty cool people. It's cool when I bump into one of them on accident coming out of a stairwell and instinctively say, "Spenca", just out of habit, and they kind of light up a bit and understand I'm not a racist piece of crap. They're cool. I've known quite a few that were illegal. Not my business. I'm not here to destroy someone who's building a freakin' senior living apartment day in and day out.

Please don't get me wrong. I just feel like we should be enforcing our borders like everyone else in the world does to keep out people who commit a bunch of crimes and then go on to shoot a young woman on a pier, before we finally say, "Hey, maybe we should take this guy seriously."

Edit: And I've always been in favor of legal immigration.

And now we're waaaaaaay off-topic. This thread might hold the record for the most amount of random discussed topics.

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And that is the correct way to hit hard, but above the belt. Well done!

That was a pretty strong hit. I had to grapple with that.